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Quote (Gene @ Mar. 06 2009,23:34) Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 05 2009,05:36) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2009,11:18) Gene wrote: Quote Thinker……….Thats the whole point, Jesus could have failed because he could be tempted, but he didn't, so that leads to the question Why did he not fail? The answer is that GOD was in Him after He recieved the HOLY SPIRIT , Gene,
You said that Jesus could fail. Then you said that He did not fail becuase God was in Him through the Holy Spirit. It appears as if you are saying that Jesus both could and could not fail at the same time. I don't get it.thinker
I hesitate to speak for Gene, but you answered my question posed to him, so here goes.I understand Gene to say Jesus could fail because of who he was but that he could not fail once indwelt by the Spirit.
Once Jesus was indwelt with the Spirit, he walked faithful to the Spirit. That hope is held out for us to as we walk by the Spirit –Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Blessings,
Seeking
seeking …………exactly, Jesus overcame by the Spirit Given Him , question is what did he overcome , His own Human nature, the same thing we have to overcome. What did Jesus say “he that overcomes even as I have”. our question shouel be How he overcame , By denying Himself and trusting in God the FATHER with all His Heart.love and peace to you and yours……………………………….gene
I agree!Seeking
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Seeking,
While Jesus a boy and “learning to be submissive” did He ever sin? If you say “yes” then He is not the savior of men. If you say “no” then you infer that He mastered sin apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit. For He did not receive the Holy Spirit until He was a man. Either way you go you testify to the words in the book of Hebrews,For such a High priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners….(7:25)
I read much circumlocution in your statement. It need not be an either or as you contend. Rather, it is another.
As the above scripture states, we have a high priest who is holy, harmless and undefiled; seperate from sinners.
We also have a high priest who was, Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him. Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us. His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father. That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Quote I have to confess that I have difficulty understanding non-trinitarians. They want a Savior that is just like them. I see no validity in this statement whatsoever. Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior. They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.
Seeking
Thinker ………Why did Jesus say the son of man can do (NOTHING) of Himself , but that the Father in Him doth the works. It was God the Father in Christ keeping Him from sinning, it was not Jesus Himself, Jesus said don't you believes the Father is in Me, if you don't believe me then believe in the Miracles , why did Jesus say that< was it not because they knew He was not a GOD but a human being . So to prove GOD was with him He said , if you don't believe my words believe in the miracles, because only God could do miracles , no one else can now of ever. Jesus was telling them GOD the FATHER was (with HIM) in what he was doing.
thinker, remember i said maybe i am not sure just my opinion. But i believe it has merits . Thinker why did Jesus say i am going to (MY)GOD and you GOD, My FATHER and YOUR FATHER. He holds himself out to be exactly like us in every way. Jesus did not sin because of the Father in Him. Go read where this came out of Jesus' mouth otherwise it would be a counter diction of scripture.
Thinker you seem to not understand Jesus was tempted in all manor of sin as we are, but scripture GOD can not be tempted by SIN. So how was Jesus tempted and still be a GOD.
As far as the Elohim thing goes look it up and you will find Elohim means (POWERS) it is a plural word according to Hebrew concordances this Power consists of Seven Spirits or intellects, i like to call Elohim a UNI-PLURAL WORD, because its seven intellects forming One power, And Jesus has all seven in Him, they are the seven horns (powers) and seven eyes of the lamb , which are the seven Spirits (Intellects)of GOD that go two and fro through out the whole earth. So its just as easy to say the seven spirits (intellects) said, let (US) create Man in our own image. Remember when Jesus said after you recieve POWER from on high you shall be witness of me. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Seeking wrote:
Quote Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as ONE with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin. Seeking,
You said that Jesus had a “daul nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.I couldn't have said it better myself and I am thethinker.
thinker
Gene said:
Quote It was God the Father in Christ keeping Him from sinning, it was not Jesus Himself, Gene,
Do you mean to say that Jesus really was a sinner who never sinned? Do you mean to say that He was not holy in His own right?Quote And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35) How can you say that it was the Father who kept Jesus from sinning when Jesus was born holy? Again, I must confess that I do not understand non-trinitarians. They want a sinner just like them to save them. Go figure!
Please explain.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote You said that Jesus had a “dual nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.
You might be using a different definition for nature than Seeking is which may put your interpretations at odds. Whether that is the case or not your statement brings up a question that I would like answered “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?” Thank you for the answer.
Seeking wrote:
Quote He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him. Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.
What you are saying here is not as clear as you might think it is. Some people might think you are speaking of “the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character” while others may think your are speaking of “the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct”. I favor the later since the earlier may give the idea that Jesus was a hybrid man-God such as Hercules is said to be.
Seeking wrote:
Quote The word became flesh and dwelt among us. His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father. That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
You seem to be saying what I did in my post to Gene and that is that the Holy Spirit dwells within Jesus from the time he was in his mother’s womb.
Seeking wrote:
Quote I see no validity in this statement whatsoever. Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior. They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.
I go further in stating I seek to follow him because he holds my hope of escaping from my bondage to sin which is one reason why I am glad that he is a High Priest that sympathizes with my weaknesses in that he has been tempted by evil but without sin showing that he did it for himself and can teach me to do it for myself.
Luke 6:40(NIV) reads:
Quote A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,21:31) The Thinker wrote: Quote You said that Jesus had a “dual nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.
You might be using a different definition for nature than Seeking is which may put your interpretations at odds. Whether that is the case or not your statement brings up a question that I would like answered “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?” Thank you for the answer.
Greetings Kerwin……(IMO )To compare the myth of Hercules with that of Jesus the man is a reasonable platform,so as to distingish spirit from flesh….needless to say Zeus has never manifested himself through creation of any kind short of mans imagination….Where in Jesus' case the Father by virtue of his word brought forth Jesus and through impregnation of his spirit Jesus was able to resist the ways of the world…and serve as a witness for the fathers plan for the salvation of man kind….He was an example for all to see…Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,03:49) Seeking wrote: Quote He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him. Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.
What you are saying here is not as clear as you might think it is. Some people might think you are speaking of “the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character” while others may think your are speaking of “the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct”. I favor the later since the earlier may give the idea that Jesus was a hybrid man-God such as Hercules is said to be.
Seeking wrote:
Quote The word became flesh and dwelt among us. His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father. That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
You seem to be saying what I did in my post to Gene and that is that the Holy Spirit dwells within Jesus from the time he was in his mother’s womb.
Seeking wrote:
Quote I see no validity in this statement whatsoever. Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior. They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.
I go further in stating I seek to follow him because he holds my hope of escaping from my bondage to sin which is one reason why I am glad that he is a High Priest that sympathizes with my weaknesses in that he has been tempted by evil but without sin showing that he did it for himself and can teach me to do it for myself.
Luke 6:40(NIV) reads:
Quote A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
Kerwin,Good thoughts to ponder.
Seeking
TheodoreJ wrote:
Quote (IMO )To compare the myth of Hercules with that of Jesus the man is a reasonable platform, so as to distinguish spirit from flesh….needless to say Zeus has never manifested himself through creation of any kind short of mans imagination….Where in Jesus' case the Father by virtue of his word brought forth Jesus and through impregnation of his spirit Jesus was able to resist the ways of the world…and serve as a witness for the fathers plan for the salvation of man kind….He was an example for all to see…
It may be the words you choose to use but you certainly seem to be stating that Jesus is a hybrid mix of God and man in much the same way that a mule is a hybrid mix between horse and donkey or Hercules was a hybrid mix between a Greek god and man. I happen to believe that pagan religions became mixed with the Christian doctrine that came through the Catholic Church. Christmas for instance is known to be based on the birthday of a pagan sun god.
The key word I speak of is “impregnation” which may not give the idea you intend.
Thinker……….Jesus was impregnated with (HOLY SPIRIT) He was a pure human being full of the Spirit, for God gave him the Spirit in full measure, rather this was at the time of his berth or not , i am not sure, But a voice was heard coming out of Heaven saying (This Day) i have begotten you. Was the voice meaning that particular time History , or that very day we don't really know. But I believe it was that day when the Spirit descended on Him like a dove. because right after that the Spirit lead Him up into the wilderness to be tempted as scripture say. Had he been led up and tempted before that (I believe he would have failed to Master sin) He was indeed tempted and we know (GOD Can not be tempted by Sin) yet Jesus was, “for he was tempted in all manor of sin as we are, but was without sin.”.
You apply GOD'S divine Status to Jesus and by the you make him a MAN GOD, While GOD was certanily in HIm (via Spirit) that does not make the person himself that GOD that is in HIM. You say we are saying Jesus had a dual nature and in a since He did, because two Wills were functioning in Him, one the FATHERS WILL, and the other JESUS' WILL. I have quoted before many scriptures that show Jesus came to do the (FATHERS WILL) not his (OWN WILL) . Jesus did not overcome sin by the Power of His (OWN MIGHT) but was totally reliant on the Father to Keep Him from sinning, and the Father's Spirit do Keep Him. There is a scripture in the bible some where that says For (HE) hath Kept me from MY INIQUITIES, can't remember where right now, We also know it says the LORD bless you and (KEEP) you. God the Father Keep Jesus from sinning . The FATHER in ME (HE) DOTH the WORKS. Thinker brother the Trinity is a False religious concept, Jesus Plainly quoted, HEAR “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD> OUR Meant HIS TO.
love and peace to you and yours brother……………………………………..gene
thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,23:55) thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
Both of your last posts to The Thinker sound good.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,11:06) Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,23:55) thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
Both of your last posts to The Thinker sound good.
Kerwin, Gene –Amen to that.
Seeking
I have been so encouraged by the way you brother's are carrying on these debates…..
Very encouraged. I've also learned a thing or two!God bless you all as you respect, love, and encourage one another towards the goal!
MandyKerwin said to thethinker:
Quote “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?” Thank you for the answer. Kerwin,
I reject that Jesus was physically the Son of God for two reasons:1. God is spirit and He therefore does not have a penis.
2. Jesus was both conceived and born of a virgin woman.I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.
thinker
Kerwin said to theodorej:
Quote It may be the words you choose to use but you certainly seem to be stating that Jesus is a hybrid mix of God and man in much the same way that a mule is a hybrid mix between horse and donkey or Hercules was a hybrid mix between a Greek god and man. I happen to believe that pagan religions became mixed with the Christian doctrine that came through the Catholic Church. Christmas for instance is known to be based on the birthday of a pagan sun god. Kerwin,
What is with your “hybrid mix” stuff? Man was created in the image of God. Therefore, for God to become a man would be that He would become like Himself but in a more limited way. Please discard your “hybrid mix” speech? Such speech serves only to convolude things.Major premise: God created man in His own image
Minor premise: God became a man
Conclusion: God became like Himself in a limited wayYour “hybrid mix” talk betrays that you view God and man as totally other. This is the chief fallacy of non-trinitarisnism.
thinker
Gene wrote:
Quote thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up.
Gene said:
Quote He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. I disagree! Hebrews 7 says that Jesus was without weakness
Quote For the law appoints high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:28) IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT MEN WHO HAVE WEAKNESS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LAW. BUT JESUS WAS APPOINTED BY OATH. THEREFORE, HE DID NOT HAVE WEAKNESS!
Gene said:
Quote He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. What do you mean when you say “He mastered sin”? For me that means that I learn to stop sinning. Did Jesus start out a sinner and then learn to stop sinning? Please reconcile your statement with our every day experiences.
Gene said:
Quote You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. Your sword cuts both ways. For if God did not become a man like us then how can He relate to us? If God did not become flesh like us then He has no idea what it means to be like us. He does not understand us.
Jesus did not have the fulness of God's Spirit always. He did not receive the Spirit until immediately before His temptation. This means He truly overcame sin in His own power. He was BORN HOLY! You and I are not born holy. Therefore, there can never be a total relating to Christ.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,11:06) Kerwin said to thethinker: Quote “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?” Thank you for the answer. Kerwin,
I reject that Jesus was physically the Son of God for two reasons:1. God is spirit and He therefore does not have a penis.
2. Jesus was both conceived and born of a virgin woman.I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.
thinker
Thinker,I have some things to add to this. But I'll be back later this evening. I come from the view that Jesus IS the literal son of God. So it may be interesting for you and I to talk about this. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Love,
Mandy
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