- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2012,09:11) Hi KW,
So this SIN is SIN LIVING IN US.
It is not of us but of our flesh.[Rom7]
Nick,These are the words of Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld in regards to the primordial sin. The first quote is about living in the Spirit while the second is about living in the flesh.
Quote Man was essentially an entirely spiritual being, and although cloaked in flesh and blood, the flesh was wholly subservient to the spirit, with the single function of bringing man's great spiritual potential to physical reality. Quote After man ate from the Tree of Knowledge, however, he acquired the intimate knowledge of and desire for evil. The evil inclination was no longer an external force, represented by the Serpent. It was within. Our physical flesh was now a confused mixture of good and evil. Death was introduced into the world: human flesh, separated from the spirit, was a creature of the finite, physical realm — one which must ultimately decay and die. Man would now face a much greater challenge than before. He would no longer battle a Serpent from without. He would have to battle his own sluggish yet desirous flesh within. You can see how his words seem to parallel those of Scripture in Romans 7 and elsewhere. I am not sure about some of his words but he has done better than many I have heard.
here is my source
Human flesh and blood, that is separate from the Spirit, cannot enter the Kingdom.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2012,13:50) Hi KW,
Spare us the theological mishmash.
SIN LIVES in men
Nick,I see no theological mishmash.
Are you finding it hard to believe that that in the spiritual the body is subject to the Spirit of God?
Sin lives in the body of a man for a man's ghost is not tempted by sin, being incomplete.
Hi Nick.
You said:
Quote Hi Toby,
So we did not see it happen with him as he was taken up
-but it would have.I did not say that Jesus was made Spiritual when he was taken up.
Jesus was clearly raised in a Spiritual Body as Scriptures says in 1 Corinthians 15.
This raised body was the same body he died in but now renewed by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus proved this to his disciples and many many more for a period of 40 days.
Jesus was then taken up into the cloud, where the Spiritual Body was removed, and his Spirit only went to the Spirit realm.Ask an unasked question? WHY did he have to enter a cloud before entering Heaven?
Spirits are reported to come and go (to and from Heaven) without a 'Cloud'.
Some go up to Heaven 'in a Flame of fire' and come down in a terrible lightening and fire and thunder and wind, or as a gentle fluttering breeze (As of a Dove!).Yet Jesus will return as Man on a Cloud. Why a cloud again?
When Jesus is in Heaven, does he have a body with wounds in it – I mean, does his Spirit have wounds in it?
The answer is, of course, No! He is Spirit.
Ah, but when he returns as man – will he have those same wounds in his body?
The answer is, of course, Yes, he is as he was before he left.So, how?
“Flesh and Blood/Bone” cannot enter the Spirit realm (This is not the same as 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God') so what happened to the Spiritual Flesh and Bone body of Jesus when he entered Heaven as a Spirit?
And when he returns as a Flesh and Bone human Beings?Toby……….the problem i see is no scripture say Jesus' body was ever Changed after his resurrection, it speculation at best. We truly do not know that he became a Spirit “being” of any Kind or type. As far as a Body being transformed by Spirit i am not convinced Spirit itself can do that . I know “Yahweh” our God who creates and uses Spirits has “POWER” To cause a body to appear and disappear and be able to be transported, he seems to be able to control all Physical Matter, much like the fictional Star Trek transporter can disassemble our atoms and reassemble them. But as far as Angels or anyone else being able at will to do that i have My Doubts. That power i think now and will alway be God OWN though he can GRANT FAVORS to US as Joule states.
As far as the Spirit “REALM” goes , where life is the Spirit is there, even on this earth it is in all creation that has life (in ) it. IMO
Words Like Spirit, Heaven, Hell, Soul, give us a lot problems becasue they are not clearly understood. for instance some think a Living Soul consists of a Soul, a Body, and a Spirit . I don not I think a LIVING Soul is a Body with Spirit (IN) it. To me it is just that simple , but to others it is not they think Souls are still alive after a person Dies.
Take Heaven some think it is a Place or abode, other think it is a State of Mind and can be anywhere that mind state is. Paul said he went to heaven rather in the body or not he did not know he said. So you see there is confusion about that words also. Not to mention scripture say there is a third Heaven also, So go figure. Take the word Hell to me it simply is Grave Just a s Shiloh is Grave to me but to other it is the place of the underworld and where people still are alive after the die, and the confusion go on and on. That is why i try to SIMPLIFY things to get a SIMPLE understanding of them . But that is difficult becasue the Bible is full of metaphors, Proverbs, Parables, symbolisms and personifications of things, that are not real . So where is say we only see in part may be a more true statement then we think> We look as through an obscured Glass , we don;t get the clear picture yet but were keep trying to though we are seeking and inquiring to learn as God grants us understanding we will grow in both Grace and Knowledge.
Toby we simply do not have scriptures that back up what you and others say about Jesus being changed into a Spirit “Being” at any time after his resurrection. Not saying you area wrong just there seem to be no scriptural support For anyone losing there Physical Bodies and becoming Spirits.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,17:41) Yes Toby,
It is new imperishable and different
Like unto the angels at least in some ways-asexual.
mt 22.30
lk 20.36
Good point, Nick.Many seem to overlook this part of 1 Cor 15:
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
The word translated as “likeness” here is “eikon”. NETNotes defines it as:
1) an image, figure, likeness
1a2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to his heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses
This is also how I understand it. As Nick points out, Jesus said we will be like the angels of heaven after the resurrection. If angels don't have bodies of flesh and blood in heaven, then why would Jesus – or any of us to follow?
After all, Paul speaks of Jesus when he says, “as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.”
Jesus' body is now like the bodies of those of heaven. Some of us are to follow.
Hi KW,
You say
“Sin lives in the body of a man for a man's ghost is not tempted by sin, being incomplete.”???Your ideas seem unscriptural.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2012,22:40) Hi KW,
You say
“Sin lives in the body of a man for a man's ghost is not tempted by sin, being incomplete.”???Your ideas seem unscriptural.
Nick,Thank you!
A ghost is the soul(spirit) of a dead creature. It is written:
Romans 6:7
King James Version (KJV)7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Hi KW,
Sin within attacks the body and the mind.
We are freed from the sin dwelling within the body at death and hopefully have overcome sin ruling the natural mind.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,03:01) Hi KW, Sin within attacks the body and the mind.
We are freed from the sin dwelling within the body at death and hopefully have overcome sin ruling the natural mind.
Nick,What you write sounds correct.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 25 2012,02:05) Toby……….the problem i see is no scripture say Jesus' body was ever Changed after his resurrection, it speculation at best. We truly do not know that he became a Spirit “being” of any Kind or type. As far as a Body being transformed by Spirit i am not convinced Spirit itself can do that . I know “Yahweh” our God who creates and uses Spirits has “POWER” To cause a body to appear and disappear and be able to be transported, he seems to be able to control all Physical Matter, much like the fictional Star Trek transporter can disassemble our atoms and reassemble them. But as far as Angels or anyone else being able at will to do that i have My Doubts. That power i think now and will alway be God OWN though he can GRANT FAVORS to US as Joule states. As far as the Spirit “REALM” goes , where life is the Spirit is there, even on this earth it is in all creation that has life (in ) it. IMO
Words Like Spirit, Heaven, Hell, Soul, give us a lot problems becasue they are not clearly understood. for instance some think a Living Soul consists of a Soul, a Body, and a Spirit . I don not I think a LIVING Soul is a Body with Spirit (IN) it. To me it is just that simple , but to others it is not they think Souls are still alive after a person Dies.
Take Heaven some think it is a Place or abode, other think it is a State of Mind and can be anywhere that mind state is. Paul said he went to heaven rather in the body or not he did not know he said. So you see there is confusion about that words also. Not to mention scripture say there is a third Heaven also, So go figure. Take the word Hell to me it simply is Grave Just a s Shiloh is Grave to me but to other it is the place of the underworld and where people still are alive after the die, and the confusion go on and on. That is why i try to SIMPLIFY things to get a SIMPLE understanding of them . But that is difficult becasue the Bible is full of metaphors, Proverbs, Parables, symbolisms and personifications of things, that are not real . So where is say we only see in part may be a more true statement then we think> We look as through an obscured Glass , we don;t get the clear picture yet but were keep trying to though we are seeking and inquiring to learn as God grants us understanding we will grow in both Grace and Knowledge.
Toby we simply do not have scriptures that back up what you and others say about Jesus being changed into a Spirit “Being” at any time after his resurrection. Not saying you area wrong just there seem to be no scriptural support For anyone losing there Physical Bodies and becoming Spirits.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,I do not have any problems with the majority of what is written in Scriptures regarding 'Spirit', 'Angels', 'Heaven', etc.
I see you wavering left and right over certain things written in Scriptures – which you can only resolve by denial.
For instance: 'God makes his Angels Spirits' – have you resolved that yet?But, Gene, you have got the aspect of Spirit in Man exactly right. So, in those instances, I support your view.
It is also correct that a 'Living' Soul is a Body with a Spirit in it.
A (plain vanilla) Soul is a Body 'With or without' the Spirit in it: A Person is still 'A Soul' even when dead!
Only God can destroy the Soul – that is, destroy the Spirit and therefore the Body (Material that would have composed the body) is no longer relevant.
Note that one Man can destroy the body of another man in human earthly terms but it is obvious that God can recreate it.Consider that those who have died many many years ago, or been cremated, have had their bodies scattered throughout the earth – how then, if not that God can recreate them again at the resurrection, to be just as they were before they died (but With all damaged parts healed).
But a man (or Angel Spirit) cannot destroy the Spirit of the man.
Gene,
I do not say that Angels/Spirits have flesh and Blood bodies (I cannot understand why you keep saying this).What I said, and keep saying, is that 'Angels/Spirits manifest temporary bodies that are seemingly like that of a flesh and bone man. Scripture says that the Angel's form was like that of a man in a white shimmering apparel. Gene, the 'Shimmering White Apparel' is to signify 'Purity and Sinlessness'.
Gene, the 'Body' is a visual illusion,
which is why Jesus said to the Disciples, 'Touch me and see'!
Has anyone else in Scriptures ever been said to have 'Touched an Angel/Spirit'?
No…
Can anyone 'touch (affect) the wind?
No…
But an Angel/Spirit can touch a person… The wind can touch (affect) you…!! See??Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,03:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,17:41) Yes Toby,
It is new imperishable and different
Like unto the angels at least in some ways-asexual.
mt 22.30
lk 20.36
Good point, Nick.Many seem to overlook this part of 1 Cor 15:
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
The word translated as “likeness” here is “eikon”. NETNotes defines it as:
1) an image, figure, likeness
1a2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to his heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses
This is also how I understand it. As Nick points out, Jesus said we will be like the angels of heaven after the resurrection. If angels don't have bodies of flesh and blood in heaven, then why would Jesus – or any of us to follow?
After all, Paul speaks of Jesus when he says, “as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.”
Jesus' body is now like the bodies of those of heaven. Some of us are to follow.
Mikeboll.There are no verses in Scriptures saying that Spirits have bodies. That is the point.
You claim that Scriptures show Spirits in Heaven with Bodies.
I challenge you to show the verses that show your claims and where that ties in with verses showing Angels/Spirits seen by mankind in the physical world.
Mike, remember that SYMBOLIC descriptions' are not 'Real', otherwise you would have to say that in Heaven Jesus is:
1) A Lamb as if slaughtered that can 'handle' a Scroll – and
2) A Man with a sharp double-edged Sword for his tongue, Brass feet, White Wooly Hair and Lightening in his eyes- and
3) A giant Angel (is Jesus an Angel?)
All at the same time – and also – What happened to the holes in his body where he has the Candle sticks there.So which 'Body' of Jesus are the elect going to be in?
Toby,
Remember what I told you in the other thread. Don't assume that just because CERTAIN THINGS in scripture are symbolic that ALL THINGS in scripture are symbolic.
I don't believe that angels having wings is symbolic. You do. There is no need to discuss it further.
As for the rest, I've plainly stated my scriptures and the understanding written by the scholars from NETNotes – with which I agree.
It is clear that you don't agree, and thats just fine and dandy with me.
Take care,
mikeToby …….I have not resolved the issue of God making His Angels Spirit (BEINGS) yet, I believe God is Making our Spirits like His also, he is transforming us to think like him. We are in a spiritual transformation state to conform to God's way of thinking like the Angels who have Spirits created (IN) them by GOD also when they are created,with bodies , I also believe we will not exist without a Body now or in the future of some kind. I do not believe God will give his complete Power to anyone . Even Jesus is limited by the Seven Spirit of GOD that are (IN) him coupled with Powers and those powers are controlled and guided and executed by GOD own Intellects (spirits). I do not believe no one can do the things of God now or ever can unless God is with him and guiding the use of those powers which he alone grants and performs. Gods Spirits he makes in the Angels he used and transported them to there destinations for his works. They as Jesus can do nothing “OF THEMSELVES” it is GOD (IN) them doing (HIS) work> Via his Spirit.
Something to consider……> Exo 23:23-24….> Behold, I send an Angel before you , to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21, Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not, for he will not pardon your transgression: why? now notice, for or (becasue) MY NAME IS (IN) HIM. 22, But if you shall indeed obey his voice, (now notice) and do all (I) Speak; then I will be an enemy unto your enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Did you notice that it was GOD speaking (IN) and through His angel. And even saying My Name was (IN) HIM. Was that angel GOD (NO) but GOD was (IN) Him obversely So God presences was indeed there because His Spirit (intellect)was (IN) that Angel , so was the angel that spirit that was (IN) Him (NO) he was not , he was a “BEING” who had Spirit (IN) HIM , he was not a Spirit himself but a “Being” who Had a spirit put there by GOD (IN) HIM>
So i maintain GOD Makes the Spirits (IN) Angels and send them out to minister his WILL in all creation. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Thanks for getting back.
You said a lot of things that were irrelevant to my question to you!
You were good enough to admit that you cannot resolve what 'God makes his Angels Spirits' means. Gene, there is a very simple and direct reason why that is – and you know what that reason is!
(By the way, again, 'Makes' implies an 'ongoing process'. Is it not universally agreed that God made the Angels all at one time. Therefore for what you say to work the verse would have to read:
“God MADE his Angel's Spirits” (note the Bolded word and the added Apostrophe)Gene, arent proper placement of Commas, and Apostrophes relevant to clear writing and understand of the flow of reading what is written? Do you not understand the POSSESIVE Single Apostrophe punctuation in words like “the Cat's sharp claw”, “the Dog's wet nose”, but there is no single apostrophe in that verse, is there? Why might that be – did every English Scripture translator forget to put one in? What do Scripture commentators say concerning that verse? Is there one (even ONE) that agrees with your view? Should you not be considering why that is?
But you are right that there was no apostrophe in Hebrew BUT that is a false lead, as the text would not have been written to include one. It is put there by the 'English' Scripture translators, who could just as easily have written:
“The Spirits of God are his Messengers (Angels) and Flames of Fire are his Ministers”
But it is more 'poetic' to simply say: “God makes his Angels Spirits and his Ministers a flame of Fire”
Additionally, where do you get the part 'Puts the Spirits in them'?
Please show where this is written, thank you.But even if you don't answer what I ask above, just answer this:
How do you interpret “The man makes his dogs meals”Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,16:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,03:01) Hi KW, Sin within attacks the body and the mind.
We are freed from the sin dwelling within the body at death and hopefully have overcome sin ruling the natural mind.
Nick,What you write sounds correct.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2012,10:01) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,16:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,03:01) Hi KW, Sin within attacks the body and the mind.
We are freed from the sin dwelling within the body at death and hopefully have overcome sin ruling the natural mind.
Nick,What you write sounds correct.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.
Pierre,The words you have chosen are wise but what insight are you sharing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
