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Hi Mike,
You said:Quote See? I've already told you how to find other descriptions of angels in the Bible, yet you want ME to do your homework for you. Forget it. No, Mikeboll. You said You had proof of the descriptions of the bodies of Spirits in Heaven. It is therefore for You to demonstrate that 'Proof'.
Seeing that you have failed to do so – as you have failed in every attempt to 'prove' that a Spirit has a Body in Heaven – I am taking it that you are resigning from any further attempts in case you drop yourself further into somewhere you do not want to be.
Oh, and into saying something you really should not be saying: namely that if Jesus was in a Spiritual Body in Heaven then he could not died on the Cross (as Scriptures says) because a Spiritual Body cannot die.
Oh, and if God 'disposed' of Jesus' Spiritual Body then God destroyed his own perfection. He would not have made the Spiritual Body into a carnal body because then it means that the Spiritual Body Can be corrupted which Scriptures says it cannot!So, in each and every way, Mikeboll, you are 'Checkmated'!
Quote Now, weren't YOU about to post your VERY FIRST scripture that tells us how angels DON'T have bodies? No, Mikeboll64, I wasn't!! (if someone said they saw a Pig flying, it is up to them to prove that they did – not for the other person to prove that they didn't! In other words 'no one can prove a negative'. It will take more than the lifetime of the universe and more than the wisdom of Solomon and then some!)
Thanks for the invitation but no thanks.
Someone said that God allows adversaries for a reason – and you were certainly a reason!
Whoa, Hold on Mikeboll64,
You said:Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2012,12:06) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,19:04) Where is your support for angels being non-material beings?
How about the fact they are called “spirits” as opposed to “humans”?This means they are “spirit BEINGS”, just as we are “human BEINGS”.
Please show one single Scripture verse that uses the term 'SPIRIT BEING' or 'Spirit Soul'.
Scriptures (As far as I read) uses the term 'A Living Soul'/'A Living Being' ONLY in reference to Mankind.
Why do you add the word 'BEING' when you speak of Spirits?
'And God blew the bodiless Spirit into the lifeless body of flesh and the body and the Spirit together became a Living Soul (a living Being)' (my paraphrase)
Toby;
You wrote:
He would not have made the Spiritual Body into a carnal body because then it means that the Spiritual Body Can be corrupted which Scriptures says it cannot!
Good point!
To All……….Again there is no such ting as a “SPIRIT BODY” Spirits are what is (IN) BODIES of all Kinds. Spirits can only find REST (IN) BODIES. Consider this, Spirits is like a Large Lakes of Water and if one takes and Pours some of the water into a Cup or Vessel they contains some of (that) same Water, that is in that Particular Lake, But it has been separated from the rest of the same water in that Lake, But it is still the same “KIND” or “TYPE” of Water that is in that Particular Lake. Now if i took a Billion Cups or vessels and Poured some of that lakes water into it, it would still be the same water as was in the lake but in a Billion different vessels at the same time, so it is with Spirits, You can have the exact same Spirit in you as I or anyone else Has, all at the same times. So the spirits are not individuals “BEINGS” they are Individual Aspects or Attributes of KINDS and Types that are in vessels i.e, “BODIES” and these Spirits give the Vessels or Bodies they are (IN) their Cognate thoughts their (INTELLECTS). Just that simple Spirit are NOT Beings they are what is (IN) Beings.
Spirits have been “PERSONIFIED: in SCRIPTURE and this has caused many to think they are complete individual Beings, when in fact they are not. Just another confusion brought on by “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” teachings. IMO.
peace and love to you all……………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 03 2012,19:04) To All……….Again there is no such ting as a “SPIRIT BODY” Spirits are what is (IN) BODIES of all Kinds. Spirits can only find REST (IN) BODIES. Consider this, Spirits is like a Large Lakes of Water and if one takes and Pours some of the water into a Cup or Vessel they contains some of (that) same Water, that is in that Particular Lake, But it has been separated from the rest of the same water in that Lake, But it is still the same “KIND” or “TYPE” of Water that is in that Particular Lake. Now if i took a Billion Cups or vessels and Poured some of that lakes water into it, it would still be the same water as was in the lake but in a Billion different vessels at the same time, so it is with Spirits, You can have the exact same Spirit in you as I or anyone else Has, all at the same times. So the spirits are not individuals “BEINGS” they are Individual Aspects or Attributes of KINDS and Types that are in vessels i.e, “BODIES” and these Spirits give the Vessels or Bodies they are (IN) their Cognate thoughts their (INTELLECTS). Just that simple Spirit are NOT Beings they are what is (IN) Beings. Spirits have been “PERSONIFIED: in SCRIPTURE and this has caused many to think they are complete individual Beings, when in fact they are not. Just another confusion brought on by “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” teachings. IMO.
peace and love to you all……………………………………………….gene
Gene,Allegories in there place are good but an allegory where evidence should be is useless.
What evidence do you have to support your belief?
Quote (toby @ April 03 2012,00:06) Why exactly DID you change the word 'Drunk' to say 'Drank' when I did not write that?
Already asked and answered. I though you made a grammatical error – nothing more.Quote (toby @ April 03 2012,00:06) Then think again: Why did you change the word 'Spiritual' to say 'Spirit' in the term 'Spiritual Body'…
As I've showed you many times, one of the definitions of “spiritual” is “belonging to a spirit”. A spiritual body is a spirit body, as a flesh body itself can neither be “spiritual” or “non-spiritual” in the sense you imply. A MAN can be spiritual, but not his flesh and blood body. A flesh and blood body can be “clean”, “holy”, “unblemished”, etc…………… but it cannot be “spiritual”. The aspect of spirituality comes from within a man, and has nothing to do with the sinful flesh body that encompasses him. But if you can show me from scriptures that a flesh body can be spiritual, while I won't change my understanding of what Paul meant in 1 Cor 15, I will become enlightened.Quote (toby @ April 03 2012,00:06) And think: Why did you change the word 'Inherit' to say 'Enter' in the verse: 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'?
I usually quote the words as they are written: “inherit the Kingdom of God”. But I believe, as I think most sensible people do also, that the phrase Paul used refers to “entering heaven”, where one can inherit God's Kingdom.If you disagree, that's your choice. But if you were to start a poll about it here, I think you'd find that many understand it exactly as I do.
Quote (toby @ April 03 2012,02:48) So, in each and every way, Mikeboll, you are 'Checkmated'! Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now, weren't YOU about to post your VERY FIRST scripture that tells us how angels DON'T have bodies? No, Mikeboll64, I wasn't!! (if someone said they saw a Pig flying, it is up to them to prove that they did – not for the other person to prove that they didn't!)
Thanks for the invitation but no thanks.
It is YOU who is claiming with certainty that angels DON'T have bodies. And I've invited you to show scriptural support of this theory, to which you say, Thanks but no thanks?
Me showing you many more scriptural descriptions of the bodies of angels will not change the fact that you haven't even ONE little scripture to support your theory, but…………
Ezekiel 1
5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man.6 In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.
1 Chronicles 21
15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.16 David looked up and saw the angel of the LORD standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem……….
Matthew 4:6
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ”Isaiah 6
2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
That is a lot of descriptions of hands, faces, legs and wings for creatures that don't even have bodies, Toby. Did you notice that David SAW the angel of God standing between heaven and earth?
And I know you'll just say, These are all symbolic visions. To which I'll say, PROVE IT!.
I'm not interested in a discussion where you list many symbolic things in the Bible as “proof” that these sightings were also symbolic. I'm not interested in, Yes they are! versus No they're not!
Like I told you SO MANY TIMES in the other thread, I DON'T REALLY CARE IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME. I understand it the way I do, and you'll not get me to understand it differently UNLESS you have a scripture or two to support your theory. And they'll have to be some real doozies to eliminate the MANY scriptures upon which I've built my current understanding.
If you have such scriptures, then post them. If you don't, then let it go. I don't particularly like talking to you in the first place, so if all you have to offer is smack talk with no scriptural support, then go bug someone else for a while (another suggestion I made to you many times in the other thread).
Quote (toby @ April 03 2012,02:54) Please show one single Scripture verse that uses the term 'SPIRIT BEING'…………..
Show me one that says “human being”. Are we to assume that human beings don't exist because it isn't worded exactly like that in the scriptures?Is it your claim that an angel is not a created BEING?
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,02:57) Toby;
You wrote:He would not have made the Spiritual Body into a carnal body because then it means that the Spiritual Body Can be corrupted which Scriptures says it cannot!
Good point!
God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body?Toby, can angels die? Scripture says NO. Can they be destroyed? Scripture says YES. So, is it your opinion that God can destroy an imperishable angel, but not it's imperishable body?
Hebrews 5:7
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.What was he outside the days of his flesh?
“Although he existed in the form of God…”And is he still in the days of his flesh now?
“To the glory I had with you before the world began…”Wondering.
Hi T8,
Certainly the Spirit of Christ was is and will be.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and foreverQuote (t8 @ April 04 2012,19:37) Hebrews 5:7
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Interesting scripture, t8.Kerwin, if this scripture lists these fleshly activities as past tense occurances, wouldn't that imply that he is no longer flesh?
Would the writer even use the phrase “in the days of his flesh” if he hadn't changed, and was still flesh?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2012,08:20) Quote (t8 @ April 04 2012,19:37) Hebrews 5:7
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Interesting scripture, t8.Kerwin, if this scripture lists these fleshly activities as past tense occurances, wouldn't that imply that he is no longer flesh?
Would the writer even use the phrase “in the days of his flesh” if he hadn't changed, and was still flesh?
Mike;Quote This is carnal (“of the flesh”) and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God. It was the days of his unchanged flesh.
Here is my source.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2012,07:19) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,02:57) Toby;
You wrote:He would not have made the Spiritual Body into a carnal body because then it means that the Spiritual Body Can be corrupted which Scriptures says it cannot!
Good point!
God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body?Toby, can angels die? Scripture says NO. Can they be destroyed? Scripture says YES. So, is it your opinion that God can destroy an imperishable angel, but not it's imperishable body?
Mike,Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.You are claiming that the body of an angel was given in slavery corruption, not as a result of Adam's sin but because God, chose to make it corrupt.
That cannot be as every gift from the heavenly Father is perfect and not corrupting.
Hi MB,
You say
“God can change Jesus from a spirit being which can not die into a flesh being which can, but the body surrounding him is more precious than him, and therefore can't be allowed to die like the beloved Son that was in that body”What is this stuff from?
Not the bibleQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 05 2012,09:02) Hi KW,
Would you add UNCHANGED to hold up your tattered dogma?
Nick,To be honest, I am amazed that there is such lack of of knowledge; and such rebellion against learning more.
For example the experts at Strong's “This is carnal (“of the flesh”) and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God”
and Paul teaches “shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit”.
or in other words a mortal body changed by God.
Jesus has a mortal body of flesh and bone that has been changed by God and not the flesh and blood body that was in bondage of corruption.
You know what the experts at Strong's say. You know what Paul teaches. You know they are in agreement. So why don't you believe them.
Hi MB,
Our mortal bodies are quickened daily.
Yes Jesus no longer has the perishable natural body but a new imperishable oneHi Nick. Would you say that the Holy Spirit was eternal, and Jesus was a man with his own spirit (like us all) and the Holy Spirit was also in him, and that when Jesus died, his own spirit went to God who gave it (as happens to all when they die) and then the Holy Spirit which was in Jesus' body on Earth raised him from the dead, then his body was eventually taken up to heaven and was presented before God, and God gave him back his (Jesus')own spirit, and the Holy Spiirit was sent to Earth to be with man, while Jesus remains in heaven? (Romans 8:11)
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