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could you give me your thoughts on 1st Thessalonians 4:16?
Hi UMB5,
(1)Are you asking me this to find out if I believe in “The Rapture”
Or
(2)Are you asking me to explain the verse the way I see things?1) There is no rapture – the doctrine of “the Rapture” is man-made
2) If you want a further explanation, please say so;
because I’m incapable of reading a persons mind,
I only have the ability to ascertain words._______________
God bless
Ed JHi UMB5,
(1)Are you asking me this to find out if I believe in “The Rapture”
Or
(2)Are you asking me to explain the verse the way I see things?No I was not asking about the Rapture; and Yes I was asking for your explanation of this verse the way you see them.
1) There is no rapture – the doctrine of “the Rapture” is man-made
Agreed – but I think we may have just opened up a whole new discussion.
2) If you want a further explanation, please say so;
because I’m incapable of reading a persons mind,
I only have the ability to ascertain words.I thought maybe because this post is about Jesus being God, a god, an Angel or Son of God; and that scripture says the lord came with the voice of an archangel, you would realize I was asking your thoughts on the scriptures referring the voice of Jesus as an archangel. I do understand the defensive tone however, as some of the discussions on this site are pretty aggressive.
Hi UMB5,
Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet.
Why be selective?
Is Jesus Christ a trumpet to you?
Hi UMB5,
If Jesus is not a trumpet then the association with voice of an archangel does not identify him as one either.
You see how childish and shonky one verse JW doctrine is?
Nick,
Hi KW,
Is the old covenant not close to being obsolete?
Since you claim you have submitted to it but not to the LAW what relevance does it have for you?
The command under the old covenant was obey all the commands of God and that has not changed.
What has changed is that instead of human effort that was the only way to seek righteousness under the Old Covenant there is now the Spirit to live by and so the effort of God is on the side of those that believe. The old way of human effort is obsolete as the righteous requirements of the Old Covenant are written on the hearts of and placed within believers.
As I have said before I am a Gentile and so I am not accountable to the customs that God gave to the Hebrew people.
Yes I was asking for your explanation of this verse (ref. 1Thess.4:16) the way you see them
Hi UMB5, (1Thess.4:13-17)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:I don’t believe this verse sheds any light on the question of the thread;
Let me explain why. Many times in Scripture, verses have *[color=black]more than one meaning[/color].
In this case we need understanding what the word “clouds” mean (which is in the next verse).17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.The answer is given in Heb.12:1: “cloud of witnesses”
they are caught up together in the “cloud of witnesses”
But the subject of all this starts in verse 13: THE DEAD13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.Here in verse 13 we see the subject is the dead, therefore this is talking about
the 1st Resurrection of the saints (Rev. clearly spells out there are 2 Resurrections,
the first Resurrection is for the saints and then the 2nd is for the sinners).
Verses 14 and 15 are about the details of this event.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep
in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.*[color=blue]The second meaning is likened unto the first, but is about ruling
with Christ after our spiritual-re-birth into God’s Kingdom via God’s HolySpirit.That’s when “we” join with the “cloud of witnesses” – and as born-again
believers we begin ruling and resigning with Christ in God’s Kingdom.[/color]___________
God bless
Ed JHi ED,
We join the cloud of witnesses and are ruling now??
Hi Nick, Yep…
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls,
as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)Perhaps you don’t see the connection here,
if not, then I will draw your attention to it.“grieve not” those who God put over your souls, as that would be unprofitable for you.
“And grieve not the HolySpirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (Eph.4:30)____________
God bless
Ed JNick,
Hi KW,
Not the customs then but not the Law as well?
It has to be PERFECTLY obeyed.
Jews do not teach that. They teach that Gentiles are only accountable to the covenant God made with Noah.
Romans 2:26Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Paul’s words are clear about Gentiles keeping the “righteousness of the law” so why don’t you understand. The Jews still teach that Gentiles are only accountable to keep the “righteousness of the law” today. They are in full agreement with Paul on the matter and yet you who claim to be a believer are not. You must give up the traditions you have been taught that disagree with Scripture.
Acts 21:20-21Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Paul stands falsely accused of teaching Jews to forsake the Law of Moses and customs, including circumcising their children. Why have you chosen to agree with his accusers? Is the devils hold on you that strong?
At the same time he defended himself from his accusers he stated ” But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised” (Galatians 2:3). So those that were concerned he was teaching Jews not to circumcise their own children felt no need to compel a Gentile to be circumcised. Instead of just saying brother he specified a Gentile.
The letter sent from those in Jerusalem is not in touching all Christians but instead “As touching the Gentiles which believe..” (Acts 21:25)
Hi KW,
You would have to be awfully sure you were not dealing with the Holy Spirit
before you accused anyone of being controlled by the devil would you not??
Hi UMB5,
Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet.
Why be selective?
Is Jesus Christ a trumpet to you?
Okay…so first of all instead of throwing out insults, just stick to scriptures. I take it that you are saying that Jesus is not Michael the archangel, however he is coming with Michael, and with the trumpet, however the word Angel is translated “messenger”, so Jesus definitely is the highest messenger, or chief messenger, or arc-messenger. We also know that punctuation did not exist when the bible writers were writing the bible, so we can not assume this scripture can be translated that way. We can however compare and look at other scriptures. Compare Rev 12:7 that Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan and hurl him to earth; then in Rev 19:13,19 it says that Christ leads that heavenly army of angels and conducts God’s war. Daniel 2:1 says that Michael shall stand up, the great prince that stands for the children of thy people. Also, At Rev: 20:1,2,10 Satan is abyssed by an “angel” for a thousand years, compare to Matt 8:29 the demons indicated that it would be Jesus that would be the one to hurl them into the abyss. Then Jesus is prophesied to crush Satan’s head (Gen 3:15l 1john 3:8), yet is Michael and his Angels that are conquering Satan in Revelations 12. The belief that Michael is another name for Jesus is not so silly or clunky…and actually has scriptural backing for that conclusion. Is it not whether you agree or not, that defines the belief.
(2) Sure, because the words in Heb.2-5 (the situation becomes clear that Jesus was never an Angel at any time
If Jesus were an Angel (at any time), then there is a contradiction between verse 5 and verse 8.For unto the angels HATH HE NOT put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” (Heb 2:5
“Thou(JEHOVAH of Armies) hast put all things in subjection under his feet.
For in that he(JEHOVAH) put all in subjection under him(Jesus Christ),
he left nothing that is not put under him.” (Hebrews 2:8)Thank you for your thoughts on this. It is a very interesting one that I will definitely research and look more into.
Your doctrine is made up as nowhere in Scripture is Jesus literally said to be anything other than a human being. The teaching you adhere to looks for ambiguities in words in order to support its claims.
Scripture teaches us there is one human being the mediates between God and humanity and he is Jesus Christ who gave his life for humanity.
There are at least two points that the book of Hebrews makes and they are that Jesus Christ is not an angel and that he is a human being because humanity can only be saved through a human being.
So you believe that Jesus is, always was, and always will be just a man? Can you please expound on that? Also – When Jesus is seen standing in heaven at the right hand of God, do you believe he stood there as a man?
Hi UMB5,
So should what you see as implication be taught as fact?
Do not be personally offended but tell us why Jesus Christ is not a trumpet.
Hi UMB5,
Dan 7.14f
“And I kept looking and behold, with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man was coming
and he came up to the Ancient of days and was presented before Him.
And to him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom
that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away
And his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed”
Still like a son of man.
And though he was WITH the clouds of heaven he was not one just as he is not a trumpet or an archangel.
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