Jesus did not pre-exist

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,17:09)

Hi BD, Islamic rejection of the appointed king and lord is to be expected. They try to find salvation through other imaginary doors.

There is no rejection of Jesus as Christ but you make Christ “God” but He was annointed by “GOD”.

So I follow the way of Christ to the Glory of The Father

[martian]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17

Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms —
Commandment
Keep
Break

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……..Jesus said not everyone who says, Lord, Lord unto me shall enter into the kingdom of God, but he who does the will of the Father. Jesus places the obedience to the Father, over his own personal position. We are told to give honor to Jesus (TO) the glory of the Father. Many have pushed Jesus to the same position as the Father making him a GOD (trinity and preexistence) doctrines. In fact most churches don't even mention the Father anymore, just Jesus. But Jesus always pointed us to the Father in both Worship and Glorification. I am not saying Jesus is not worthy of Honor and Glory, but not at the expense of the FATHER. Jesus always glorified the FATHER saying I have Glorified YOU (the FATHER) on the earth, we should also. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

How is that?

Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered?

[kerwin]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,22:22)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 How is that? Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered?

I believe this is another scripture that helps support your position.

Acts 21:20(NIV) reads:

Quote

When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2009,08:45)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,22:22) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 How is that? Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered? I believe this is another scripture that helps support your position. Acts 21:20(NIV) reads: Quote When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Yup, yup

[NickHassan]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,19:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,17:09) Hi BD, Islamic rejection of the appointed king and lord is to be expected. They try to find salvation through other imaginary doors. There is no rejection of Jesus as Christ but you make Christ “God” but He was annointed by “GOD”. So I follow the way of Christ to the Glory of The Father

Hi BD,
The way of Christ does not include offering to improve the teachings of the Spirit of God which you do does it?

You put yourself above God .

[NickHassan]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2009,03:45)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,22:22) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 How is that? Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered? I believe this is another scripture that helps support your position. Acts 21:20(NIV) reads: Quote When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Hi KW,
So did you read the following verse?

[martian]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 10 2009,03:22)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 How is that? Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered?

Commandment —–

The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.

Keep —–

Many times I have heard it said that no one can keep all of the commands but, this is not true. From an Hebraic perspective of the word shamar behind the English word keep, it is possible to keep all of the commands. The problem lies in our understanding of keep as meaning obedience, but this is not the meaning of shamar. It should first be recognized that not all of the commands of the torah are for all people. Some are only for the priests, some are only for men and some are only for women. Some are only for children and some are for leaders. But, it should also be understood that even if a command is not for you, you can still keep it. The original picture painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr derived from this root means a thorn. The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh bless you and keep (guard and protect) you. One keeps the commands of God by guarding and protecting them.
(One can see this definition carried out in the
Keep” of the castle the most secure place in the castle and in the prayer “Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the lord my soul to “Keep”. A prayer for the Lord to guard and protect.)

Break ——

While the word keep, as in “keep the commands of God” does not mean obedience but guarding and protecting, the meaning of “break the commands of God” does not mean disobedience. The Hebrew word parar, translated as break, is the treading of grain on the threshing floor by oxen to open up the hulls to remove the seeds. To the Ancient Hebrews, breaking the commands of God was equated with throwing it on the ground and trampling on it. In both cases, keeping and breaking are related to ones attitude toward the commands. A child who disobeys his parents and is genuinely apologetic shows honor and respect to his parents. But a child who willfully disobeys with no sign of remorse has trampled on his parents teachings and deserves punishment.

The above definitions are from Jeff Benner of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. As one can see keeping the commandments is not so much about obedience as it is about attitude. A few points to consider –
Two men commit the same sin. One of the men hates that he has failed again. He hates his sin and commits himself to overcome his sin. The other shrugs off his sin and cares not for the natural laws of God. He trods the directions of God under foot. One breaks the commandments and one does not. And for the one who hates his sin we have the blood of Christ to cover him. He is repentant, for he is sorry for his sin and turns from it.

God gives us directions on how to get to Zion, the H
oly City. He leaves signposts and landmarks along the way for us to follow. We are instructed to follow the Tradewinds/wind of the spirit to guide us. Like a good father God attempts to teach us with His directions on how to live a prosperous, healthy and clean life. A life that leads to character development. A life that changes the follower to be more like his heavenly Father. That is the simple plan of God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 10 2009,02:37)

Nick……..Jesus said not everyone who says, Lord, Lord  unto me shall enter into the kingdom of God, but he who does the will of the Father. Jesus places the obedience to the Father, over his own personal position. We are told to give honor to Jesus (TO) the glory of the Father. Many have pushed Jesus to the same position as the Father making him a GOD (trinity and preexistence) doctrines. In fact most churches don't even mention the Father anymore, just Jesus. But Jesus always pointed us to the Father in both Worship and Glorification.  I am not saying Jesus is not worthy of Honor and Glory, but not at the expense of the FATHER. Jesus always glorified the FATHER saying I have Glorified YOU (the FATHER) on the earth, we should also.  IMO peace and love…………………..gene

Amen Gene!!!

I have been to churches sitting there and thinking “they are sure praising God here and suddenly they start saying that God was born and died for us that God's mother…etc

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:20-22

That is why IMO God sent Gabriel down with the Quran. It makes things crystal Clear: there is God and His creation He owns everything and everything else is subject to Him and Him alone.

This does not mean God does not love you like a Father it means He loves you more than any Father ever could His LOVE, Mercy and Compassion is transcendent!!!!

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,

You should not bother with the pratings of the false church.

NO TAKERS FOR NEW GOSPELS BROUGHT BY SUPPOSED ANGELS?

Plants not planted by the Father will be pulled out.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 10 2009,07:30)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 10 2009,03:22) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:12) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,18:57) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,13:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 09 2009,08:13) Quote (martian @ Nov. 09 2009,07:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,07:19) Hi M, I am very imperfect but the bride WILL come to perfection I agree. One must also know that Elohiym is just and will do what is right. There are those in the OT that will be in the bride. They were perfect within the light they had. For example Job – Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? You are right! If we could not be perfect Jesus would not have told us to be perfect and perfect in obedience is what we need to be. Obedient to what?  The commandments? Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey [hypakoē], his servants ye are to whom ye obey [hypakoē]; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience [hypakoē] unto righteousness? And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Corinthians 4:17 Please define for me your take on the following biblical terms — Commandment Keep Break Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 How is that? Commandment, Keep, Break, was it answered? Commandment —– The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark. Keep —– Many times I have heard it said that no one can keep all of the commands but, this is not true. From an Hebraic perspective of the word shamar behind the English word keep, it is possible to keep all of the commands. The problem lies in our understanding of keep as meaning obedience, but this is not the meaning of shamar. It should first be recognized that not all of the commands of the torah are for all people. Some are only for the priests, some are only for men and some are only for women. Some are only for children and some are for leaders. But, it should also be understood that even if a command is not for you, you can still keep it. The original picture painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr derived from this root means a thorn. The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh bless you and keep (guard and protect) you. One keeps the commands of God by guarding and protecting them. (One can see this definition carried out in the Keep” of the castle the most secure place in the castle and in the prayer “Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the lord my soul to “Keep”. A prayer for the Lord to guard and protect.) Break —— While the word keep, as in “keep the commands of God” does not mean obedience but guarding and protecting, the meaning of “break the commands of God” does not mean disobedience. The Hebrew word parar, translated as break, is the treading of grain on the threshing floor by oxen to open up the hulls to remove the seeds. To the Ancient Hebrews, breaking the commands of God was equated with throwing it on the ground and trampling on it. In both cases, keeping and breaking are related to ones attitude toward the commands. A child who disobeys his parents and is genuinely apologetic shows honor and respect to his parents. But a child who willfully disobeys with no sign of remorse has trampled on his parents teachings and deserves punishment. The above definitions are from Jeff Benner of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. As one can see keeping the commandments is not so much about obedience as it is about attitude. A few points to consider – Two men commit the same sin. One of the men hates that he has failed again. He hates his sin and commits himself to overcome his sin. The other shrugs off his sin and cares not for the natural laws of God. He trods the directions of God under foot. One breaks the commandments and one does not.  And for the one who hates his sin we have the blood of Christ to cover him. He is repentant, for he is sorry for his sin and turns from it. God gives us directions on how to get to Zion, the Holy City. He leaves signposts and landmarks along the way for us to follow. We are instructed to follow the Tradewinds/wind of the spirit to guide us.  Like a good father God attempts to teach us with His directions on how to live a prosperous, healthy and clean life. A life that leads to character development. A life that changes the follower to be more like his heavenly Father. That is the simple plan of God.

I agree with everything you said but would like to add that obedience is guarding and protecting the Knowledge of Good and Evil. While breaking the commandments does mean willful and purposeful disobedient use of the Knowledge of good and evil.

(13) The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #19)

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Man is not good.
How can he guard what he does not own?
Islam submits to men who claim a relationship with God-like catholicism.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,08:15)

Hi BD, Man is not good. How can he guard what he does not own? Islam submits to men who claim a relationship with God-like catholicism.

Then why did God say:

Genesis 1 (King James Version)
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Once again you are in error

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Since Adam submitted to the God of this world Satan's fruit borne through men has been appalling.[Gal5]

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,12:55)

Hi BD, Since Adam submitted to the God of this world Satan's fruit borne through men has been appalling.[Gal5]

Then why did God say:

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 4:6-8

If we were born with sin then the scripture would not say:

“If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?”

So obviously we were not born in sin.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Lust conceives sin.
[Jas]

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

So did you read the following verse?

I read that many false witnesses were prorogating lies about Paul and in an attempt to defend Paul’s reputation James and the elders of the church of Jerusalem suggested that Paul engage in a Jewish purification rite.  Paul agreed, as he was a Jew, in order to convince the Jewish Christians the reports were false.

I hope you do not agree with Paul’s accusers.

What Paul really taught is that Gentiles should be Gentiles and Jews should be Jews.   The Law of Mosses teaches the same thing even though it expects both to obey all of God’s commands which apply to each people.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
I believe Paul was allowed to avoid useless controversies for the sake of spreading the gospel as far as he could without disruption-in the freedom of Christ.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,13:12)

Hi KW, I believe Paul was allowed to avoid useless controversies for the sake of spreading the gospel as far as he could without  disruption-in the freedom of Christ.

Acts 21:21(KJV) reads:

Quote

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

I do not see where James, Paul, or the elders of the church at Jerusalem regarded this as a minor matter.  Their solution was to demonstrate that Paul kept the law.

Acts 21:23-24(KJV) reads:

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Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

This is the best support for a different opinion as it implies living like a Jew is voluntary even for a Jew.

Galatians 2:14(KJV) reads:

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But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

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