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Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
I don't know if I answered that or not, but I will do now. Jesus did know where He came from, otherwise He could not have said what He did in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
We do know what glory He went back with, and so we know what He had before the world was. He was a Spirit being. IMO God had to send someone like Jesus that knew what was at stake and did not sin. He was not an ordinary Human being. How could a 12 year old boy go into the Temple and teach like Jesus did. No way. If Jesus would be just like any other Human being He would have sinned. All have fallen short of the glory of God, and that would have including Jesus if He would be just an ordinary Human being and did not know where He came from.Nick……..Jesus said not everyone who says, Lord, Lord unto me shall enter into the kingdom of God, but he who does the will of the Father. Jesus places the obedience to the Father, over his own personal position. We are told to give honor to Jesus (TO) the glory of the Father. Many have pushed Jesus to the same position as the Father making him a GOD (trinity and preexistence) doctrines. In fact most churches don’t even mention the Father anymore, just Jesus. But Jesus always pointed us to the Father in both Worship and Glorification. I am not saying Jesus is not worthy of Honor and Glory, but not at the expense of the FATHER. Jesus always glorified the FATHER saying I have Glorified YOU (the FATHER) on the earth, we should also. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Hello brother Gene, the above post of yours is quite appropriate. The preexistence of Jesus is the ambiguity created by NT writers. If Jesus is the Jewish Messiah he can not be a non-human or demi-god or God that would make him disqualified as per Hebrew scriptures. Hebrew scriptures talk about human messiah (born to human parents) and warrior king and a mortal.
Hi all, I just wanted to revive this topic which was my favorite topic under Truth or Tradition. Please share your views. Thank you.
John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.ADAM….quite right brother, New Testament translators has corrupted the truth of God, No true scripture says Jesus ever created any thing, even he said he couldn’t do anything himself. No scripture says Jesus himself is God the Fathers word either. They that say that d0n’t realize Jesus is fulfillment of God the fathers word. He is not now or ever was God the Fathers own word himself .
God and his word are one and the same being. Any Jew of Christ day , and Jesus himself knew that. Jesus spoke to us as a prophet would, telling us God the Faters words, not claiming as his words, nor would he ever do that either, he clearly told us all that those words were not his words, anyone with any sense should know what he CLEARLY SAID. “THE words i am telling you ARE, “NOT’ MY WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM, THAT SENT ME”.How clearer can you get then that?
peace and love to you and yours…….gene
Proclaimer gave the essential verses which prove that Jesus is truly the divine Son of God made flesh.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[28] And I give them eternal life; and they will never perish, and no one will take them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man can pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
[30] My Father and I are one.I GIVE THEM. ETERNAL. LIFE
How can a simple man give eternal life to other men if he is not God ???
Proclaimer…… Bible says this,
Gen 1: 1…..In the beginning God “created” the heaven “and” the earth.
Pro 16 : 4…The LORD has made “all”things “for himself “ yea even the wicked for the day of evil.
Mark 13: 19…For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not “from the “beginning” of creation which “God” created unto this time neither shall be”.
John 1:1… In the beginning was the Word, (of God), and the “word” ( intelligent utterance) was with God , and the “WORD” “WAS GOD”. “THE SAME ” was with God and “WAS GOD”. (Just as your words are with you and are you also so is God the he fathers are with him and are him),“the same was in the “beginning with God . 3, All things were “made” by him; (God) and without him was not “made ” any thing that was made.Heb 1:10….And you Lord, i the beginning have laid the”foundations “ of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands :
These are just a few that show God the father created the heavens and earth by himself and alone.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Thanks brother Gene for your reply to my post. In fact not only the NT translators but the very writers of New testament created ambiguity of Jesus’ role in creation along with God and also as sharing the divinity with God of the Hebrew Bible. This Christian idea of Messiah involvement in God’s creation and sharing the divinity are foreign to Hebrew scriptures. The preexistence of Jesus(Messiah) is one such strange idea of the NT writers.
Love to you brother…..Adam
“but the very writers of New testament created ambiguity of Jesus’ role in creation along with God and also as sharing the divinity with God of the Hebrew Bible. “
Adam , Do you have solid evidence of what you are saying here. ?
Hi Berean, What evidence you require. I have already gave the examples on how NT writers interpreted Hebrew scriptures and to suit their Christology.
The belief that Jesus fulfilled scripture is part of the DNA, as it were, of Christianity. That belief goes back as far as anything historians can trace in early Christianity. Paul, whose letters are the earliest available writings about Jesus, wrote that Christ died for sins “according to the scriptures,” and was raised on the third day “according to the scriptures.” In expressing these beliefs Paul insisted that he was merely repeating what he had been told by those who were believers before him (1 Cor 15:3–4). The belief that Jesus fulfilled scripture was crucial to the earliest groups of Jesus followers—either Jews or non-Jews who knew that they had joined a Jewish movement—because it was a means to assure themselves of their religious legitimacy. It enabled them to relate what was new (Jesus) to what was old (the scriptures of Israel). Making that connection was essential in a time and culture that regarded old sacred writings with reverence and anything new in religion with suspicion….
So what you are saying is you do not believe the scriptures I quoted?
Proclaimer….it’s not the scripture you posted, it’s the spin you and others put on them, shows how much change Christianity has put on them also. How do we know this? Because they contradict in places the original Hebrew OT texts, which Paul told us to compare them to. Even Jesus himself said that “MANY” would come preaching him and “DECEIVE MANY” , and only a “FEW ” would find the true way.
A scholar named Wills found over 20000 grammatical errors written in the NT. There are many book written by Critical Scholars like Bart Eurhan and others , how the NT, has been corrupted by “trinitarian” translators over the years.
Jesus himself said he did not come to change the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them, and he also said the scriptures, “OT”, could not be broken, and himself quoted many different HEBREW SCRIPTURES, many times.
Modern Christianity teachings continues to violate Our Sacred Old Testament teachings over and over . If people would only do, what Paul told the Bereans, and base their understanding of scriptures on them, like Jesus and the apostles always did, they could weed out all those false teachings. It is also good to remember who gave us those New Testament cannons which were written by their ‘trinitarian’ translators.
peace and love to you and yours…….gene
Hi Gadam
But you answer beside….
You have written :
“but the very writers of New testament created ambiguity of Jesus’ role in creation along with God and also as sharing the divinity with God of the Hebrew Bible. “
WHERE You see ambiguïty in There writings?
Thanks you
Adam….Thanks for your input brother. I know your frustration here brother , but it is good to understand that we must bear witness of the truth also, brother . Being faithful to the truth that has been given us, has it’s rewards in the end brother.
There is only a short time left , the process of our lord Jesus our brother is all ready starting to happen all over this world, this Babylon system of rule is starting to crumble brother.
peace and love to you Adam and yours………gene
Hi Gadam,
YOU: The belief that Jesus fulfilled scripture was crucial to the earliest groups of Jesus followers—either Jews or non-Jews who knew that they had joined a Jewish movement—because it was a means to assure themselves of their religious legitimacy.
It enabled them to relate what was new (Jesus) to what was old (the scriptures of Israel). Making that connection was essential in a time and culture that regarded old sacred writings with reverence and anything new in religion with suspicion….
John3:22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know;
for salvation is of the Jews.
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Luke 5:36 And he spoke also a similitude to them: That no man putteth a piece from a new garment upon an old garment; otherwise he both rendeth the new, and the piece taken from the new agreeth not with the old. 37And no man putteth new wine into old bottle: otherwise the new wine will break the bottles, and it will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. 38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39And no man drinking old, hath presently a mind to new: for he saith, The old is better.
Gadam, do you accept the above scriptures as true, authentic, and genuine?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gene,
YOU: He is not now or ever was God the Fathers own word himself .
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall MY WORD be, which shall go forth from my mouth:
it shall not return to me void,
but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
Me: Gene from the above verses it is evidently clear that:
YOUR THOUGHTS, YOUR WAYS, YOUR REASONINGS AND SO ON,
ARE NOT THE SAME AS GOD’S
NOW ANSWER:
HOW GOD’S OWN WORD, SINGULAR
RETURNS BACK TO GOD???
YOUR OWN WORD Gene DOESN’T RETURN BACK TO YOU!
DOES IT???
YOU: God and his word are one and the same being.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Now to:
John 14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?
Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.
How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?
10Do you not believe,
that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
YOU: God and his word are one and
the same being.
Gene, THE ABOVE IS THE FIRST TRUE WORDS THAT YOU HAVE EVER SPOKEN YOURSELF ON HEAVENNET!
YOU SIMPLY REPEATED WHAT JESUS SAID!
READ WHAT JESUS SAID:
….I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
NOW YOU SAID:
God and his word are one and the same being.
SO ACCORDING TO YOU, and DEFINITELY, ALSO IN THE SAME WAY WITH US,
GOD’S OWN WORD IS IN HIM, AND GOD IS IN HIS OWN WORD!
NOW TO JESUS’ WORDS:
JESUS, “THE WORD”, IS in the Father, and the Father IS IN “THE WORD”, JESUS?
LET’S CONTINUE:
The words that I speak to you,
The above Gene, “THE WORDS” plural, is a clear reference to the Gospel, Jesus didn’t say
MY WORDS, but THE WORDS!!!
I speak not of myself.
But the Father who abideth in me,
he doth the works.
Jesus made it clear that THE GOSPEL IT’S NOT HIS INVENTION!
BUT IT IS THE WORK OF THE FATHER WHO ABIDES ETERNALLY IN JESUS!
JESUS PRE-EXISTED SINCE THE FATHER IS ETERNAL, AND
JESUS IS HIS OWN SPOKEN WORD!
YOU: “THE words i am telling you ARE, “NOT’ MY WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM, THAT SENT ME”.
The above Gene is your INVENTION
NOT THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel, Thanks for your reply to my post. In fact I am debating here on the NT writers who interpreted Hebrew scriptures to suit their agenda on Jesus as Jewish Messiah and how he fulfilled OT prophecies. For example if we take the writer of First Gospel in the NT He is the one comes with lot of fulfillments of the OT prophecies by Jesus.
After all, Matthew’s intense interest in the fulfillment of prophecies gives the impression that pointing them out was a primary task of someone telling the story of Jesus’ life. Once the New Testament became a fixture in Christianity, Matthew’s position as the favored gospel set the tone for what readers expect in all the gospels, all the more so because Matthew loads five fulfillment scenes into his infancy narrative. The first pages of the New Testament are thus dense with prophecy. Christians who learn the life of Jesus starting with Matthew can easily get the impression that Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies that his fulfillments must have been obvious, not only to his disciples, but to anyone who knew the scriptures, especially to the Jewish religious authorities.
Similarly other NT writers like Paul, Luke, John etc used OT scriptures to suit their agenda taking them out of their original context. They have invented new doctrines which were not part of the Hebrew Bible for example- the preexistence of the Jewish Messiah which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible. We are taking for granted of these NT writings without critically evaluating their credibility because we have already assumed that all the NT is God’s inspired scripture. But we are forgetting that the religion of Jesus the Jew was based on the Hebrew Bible only. Christianity made mess of contradictory doctrines like Trinity, Original sin, Vicarious atonement, Preexistence of Messiah etc which are foreign to Hebrew Bible.
Adam….Thanks for your input brother. I know your frustration here brother , but it is good to understand that we must bear witness of the truth also, brother . Being faithful to the truth that has been given us, has it’s rewards in the end brother.
There is only a short time left , the process of our lord Jesus our brother is all ready starting to happen all over this world, this Babylon system of rule is starting to crumble brother.
peace and love to you Adam and yours………gene
Thank you brother Gene, I am only critically evaluating the doctrines created by the NT writers and Christianity here.
The New Testament teaches the heavenly preexistence of Christ before taking flesh:
For any person to be fully divine, he must exist forever—God, by definition, cannot begin to exist or be created. In various ways, the New Testament affirms that Christ did, in fact, exist in the spiritual or heavenly realm before being born in the flesh. John’s Gospel teaches that Jesus “came from above” (or similar wording, John 3:31; 6:38, 51; 8:23) and had glory with the Father in heaven in eternity past (John 17:5). Paul also teaches that Jesus existed in heaven before being sent in the flesh (Col. 1:17; 1 Cor. 15:47; Eph. 4:9-10; Gal. 4:4; 1 Tim. 1:15; 3:16). Jesus, too, gives subtle signs that he has “come” from outside the earthly realm (e.g., Luke 12:49-51), which even demons recognize (Mark 1:24).These are some of the scriptures of NT which talk about the preexistence of Jesus. But if Jesus was the Jewish Messiah this is some thing which is strange for Jewish religion on the Messiah as per Hebrew Bible. As per Hebrew Bible the Jewish Messiah will be human being born to human parents and not a preexisting divine being.
Gadam
The New Testament corresponds to the light of the sun, while the Old Testament to the light of the moon.
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (Revelation 12: 1)
a woman clothed with the sun: people of God under the New Covenant of Christ (Our Sun of Justice)
the moon under her feet:
people of God under the Old Covenant (shadows of things to come, Christ is foreshadowed)There is no error in the New Testament, it is the Devil who puts the error in our heads too often, God forgive us.
God bless
Berean…….no scripture says that, that is just you forcing the text to say what in fact it doesn’t specifically say, as you do so many other scriptures. Forcing our text to say things not said in our Old Testament scriptures and not even aligning with them, is definitely not what Jesus ever did or even thought of doing.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
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