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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:55) Martian wrote: Quote To me teaching should produce fruit that changes lives. I am not talking about a mental philosophy to debate. I am talking about fruit like building hope or making the example of Christ clearer. If a doctrine does not produce fruit it is worthless for anything other mental ascension debate.
I believe I am changing but the process is extremely long and full of torment. Still, all things are possible through God.
Hi Kerwin:Quote Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (martian @ Nov. 24 2009,10:27) Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,04:37) Quote (martian @ Nov. 23 2009,13:38) I am posting this from another thread. It was my response to a trinitarian. I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness.
Your doctrine does not do either.
Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important.You are right I do think you are narrow minded. You cannot back away from your philosophy enough to see if it actually has any purpose other then a mental philosophy to debate.
Truth is truth is truth is only truth if it is true. We can argue whose truth is true till the rapture (assuming you believe in it) and never come to an answer. Perhaps you are looking for the accolades of the board members as your reward for sticking to your doctrine. A doctrine which a vast number agree with. If so eat it up buddy. I am not interested in such things.
What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life.
Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness.
I am stuck for the moment in the house because of injury. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change.
I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit.
I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right)
I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.
I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit.I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me.
I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understand them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not hybrid God/man but just like us)
I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death.
I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome.
I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ.
I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him.
I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical excuse.
Martian! So you are stuck at Home and can't go anywhere. Do you think that you are the only disabled person around? Think again. I don't come on here for entertainment. And neither should you. We debate the word of God, for pet sake.
As far as preexisting is concerned, you don't go by Scriptures? Scriptures tell me that Christ was not just in the plan of God. He was the firstborn of all creation brought forth by GOD. Then God gave Him the right to create all.
Col, 1:17
Rev. 3:14
And by Christ's own words He said that He was with God before the world was
John17:5
And that has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. They believe that Christ always exsisted like the Father.
And then there is what t8 likes to quote. I was “before Abraham I was.”
I pray and pray that all will come to the understanding of God's Word.
In Christians Love and Peace Irene
Yes go ahead and debate to no avail. Until someone comes up with an honest approach to interpretation there will be little change.the scripture you posted I have dealt with twenty times. You will never agree with what I say. you will claim it is my opinion because you and I have not agreed on an honest approach to interpretation that we will both abide by even if it upsets our doctrine.
I can not even get others to agree on the purpose of teachng/doctrine.
To me teaching should produce fruit that changes lives. I am not talking about a mental philosophy to debate. I am talking about fruit like building hope or making the example of Christ clearer. If a doctrine does not produce fruit it is worthless for anything other mental ascension debate.
All I am going to say to you, I hope you will find that person who gives you an honest approach to your believes.
Scripture is Scripture.
Like t8 says “I am before Abraham was”
Have a nice day, Irene
``
Quote (martian @ Nov. 23 2009,13:38) I am posting this from another thread. It was my response to a trinitarian. I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness.
Your doctrine does not do either.
Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important.You are right I do think you are narrow minded. You cannot back away from your philosophy enough to see if it actually has any purpose other then a mental philosophy to debate.
Truth is truth is truth is only truth if it is true. We can argue whose truth is true till the rapture (assuming you believe in it) and never come to an answer. Perhaps you are looking for the accolades of the board members as your reward for sticking to your doctrine. A doctrine which a vast number agree with. If so eat it up buddy. I am not interested in such things.
What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life.
Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness.
I am stuck for the moment in the house because of injury. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change.
I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit.
I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right)
I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.
I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit.I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me.
I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understand them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not hybrid God/man but just like us)
I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death.
I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome.
I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ.
I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him.
I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical excuse.
martian…….Amen brother, sorry to hear of your injury Hope GOD will heal you. I alway enjoy your post and the soundness in them. Keep u[p the good work.peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,14:50) Quote (martian @ Nov. 22 2009,09:20) I see you did not answer the questions.
I can tell you how a non-preexistant Christ benifits me.
I look at everything that Christ did. I know that he did them as a human and that gives me hope that I too can overcome temptation. Have the power of God in me to do mighty things. Become one with my Father. Be ressurected from the dead. Have eternal life.
If Jesus is a God or has any advantage due to his prexistance then the example is flawed. these will always be a loop hole that the devil can exploit by saying I cannot do it because I do not have the advantage that Christ had.
Christ as God lessens the hope I receive by Jesus being human.As you say God could create another one. In fact Jesus is the second one. He is the second Adam. Adam failed to mature into a perfect son of God. Jesus did not.
The fact that Jesus was the first to accomplish what God set out to do with creation in the first place makes him a very precious commoditiyThe semi-quotes you note are all based on your interpretation of scripture. If those verses are interpreted in another way they lend no strength to your argument. The interpretations become my opinion against yours.
There is only two options. Either we agree on a method of interpretation that we will both stick to or we tets the theories based on their fruit.
I have said what the fruit of my doctrine is. Can you post the fruit of yours?
No difference for me martian because it says that before coming here he emptied himself and took on flesh. I take that to mean that he traded his privileged divine nature for human nature and was born like we are (in weak flesh). He became like us in every way even though he existed in the FORM of God.Ignoring scripture, let's imagine that we pre-existed. How would we know? If I come in the flesh and start anew, then my past is of no advantage to me as far as power and memory goes.
So he became as one of us. It is very important to believe that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. What does that mean, well I think it is that he emptied himself of his position, power, and nature and took on lowly human nature and even becoming lower than the angels in type. It does say that he humbled himself till death.
It is also written that he is now with the Father with the glory he had before the world begun. So he existed in the form (nature) of God, emptied himself, came as a man, died, rose from the dead, and is seated with God the Father with the glory he had before the world begun.
God paid the highest price for us. He didn't send and instantly created offspring to die for us, but a son by whom God made all things through and for. A son that he loved before the creation of the world.
This is the measure of God's love for us.
The whole problem, with that is, it is all based on assumption up to the point of his birth, then it becomes fact or reality.If we lived as a or some sort of divine spirit and lets assume we had a divine knowledge, why would we lose it? Seems some sort of a waste.
That is why most trinitarians not only take a trinitarian view but go on to assume we have these same spirits that are undying (immortal) with absolutly no proof. It cascades from the “ONE” G-d, to two gods, then three to immortal spirits, then purgatory, limbo, hell, etc.. See why christianity is come so far off center.
It really is a shame.
Not assumption. The reason why people do not believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago is because there are quite a number of scriptures that are contrary to this notion.
It is easy to debunk the Trinity and all sorts of other doctrines because you can use scripture to show otherwise. I can do exactly the same thing with the teaching that Jesus was created 2000 (or so) years ago.
I believe if you are honest you can see it because it is quite clear. If you cannot see it, it is because something is getting in the way. That something could be bias, another teaching, a spirit, or whatever.
The other thing to note is that it doesn't say anywhere that he was created (2000 or so years ago). But Jesus said with his own mouth “before Abraham I am”. Of course the notion that he was claiming to be God is ridiculous, he was instead claiming that he existed. Even the Jews understood his words because they replied, “You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham”?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2009,02:01) Not assumption. The reason why people do not believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago is because there are quite a number of scriptures that are contrary to this notion. It is easy to debunk the Trinity and all sorts of other doctrines because you can use scripture to show otherwise. I can do exactly the same thing with the teaching that Jesus was created 2000 (or so) years ago.
I believe if you are honest you can see it because it is quite clear. If you cannot see it, it is because something is getting in the way. That something could be bias, another teaching, a spirit, or whatever.
The other thing to note is that it doesn't say anywhere that he was created (2000 or so years ago). But Jesus said with his own mouth “before Abraham I am”. Of course the notion that he was claiming to be God is ridiculous, he was instead claiming that he existed. Even the Jews understood his words because they replied, “You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham”?
The English does not always bode well with the Greek or the Hebrew.Why do you think the Jews have denied Yeshua as a god for the last 2000 years, they could accept him easier as a prophet, teacher, wise one and even the Messiah! Long before they would accept him as a god. It is their writings, their books, Jesus was a Jew not a god, the Apostles were Jews, minus a few down the road. It wasn't until the trinitarian council officially made him a god that it took affect. And threateaned the arian views with their very lives if they chose to go against the edict.
Funny thing even athiests celebrate his alledged birth 2000 years ago every christmas. The bible is not silent when he came into the world.
Funny if I don't see your clarity I must be filled with some other spirit or something like that. T8 your to much, I was born a Jew, lived a trinitarian life, born again unto ONE 'Elohim through his son Yeshua HaMashiach and enlightened with his spirit. I have travelled those roads, have you?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 24 2009,21:18) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2009,02:01) Not assumption. The reason why people do not believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago is because there are quite a number of scriptures that are contrary to this notion. It is easy to debunk the Trinity and all sorts of other doctrines because you can use scripture to show otherwise. I can do exactly the same thing with the teaching that Jesus was created 2000 (or so) years ago.
I believe if you are honest you can see it because it is quite clear. If you cannot see it, it is because something is getting in the way. That something could be bias, another teaching, a spirit, or whatever.
The other thing to note is that it doesn't say anywhere that he was created (2000 or so years ago). But Jesus said with his own mouth “before Abraham I am”. Of course the notion that he was claiming to be God is ridiculous, he was instead claiming that he existed. Even the Jews understood his words because they replied, “You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham”?
The English does not always bode well with the Greek or the Hebrew.Why do you think the Jews have denied Yeshua as a god for the last 2000 years, they could accept him easier as a prophet, teacher, wise one and even the Messiah! Long before they would accept him as a god. It is their writings, their books, Jesus was a Jew not a god, the Apostles were Jews, minus a few down the road. It wasn't until the trinitarian council officially made him a god that it took affect. And threateaned the arian views with their very lives if they chose to go against the edict.
Funny thing even athiests celebrate his alledged birth 2000 years ago every christmas. The bible is not silent when he came into the world.
Jesus is the son of God, the Word of God, and the messiah. He is all these but he is not God.Just because the Trinity Doctrine is rightly rejected, doesn't mean that we also reject that he was with the Father before the world began. If we throw out everything Trinitarians believe, then we have to also throw out the truth that he is the messiah and the son of God too.
Let scripture teach you and let scripture show you the picture. Men are too fond of picking and choosing what they want. As it is written:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Scripture clearly says that his beginnings are from ancient times. I believe that, you obviously do not.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2009,11:29) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 24 2009,21:18) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2009,02:01) Not assumption. The reason why people do not believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago is because there are quite a number of scriptures that are contrary to this notion. It is easy to debunk the Trinity and all sorts of other doctrines because you can use scripture to show otherwise. I can do exactly the same thing with the teaching that Jesus was created 2000 (or so) years ago.
I believe if you are honest you can see it because it is quite clear. If you cannot see it, it is because something is getting in the way. That something could be bias, another teaching, a spirit, or whatever.
The other thing to note is that it doesn't say anywhere that he was created (2000 or so years ago). But Jesus said with his own mouth “before Abraham I am”. Of course the notion that he was claiming to be God is ridiculous, he was instead claiming that he existed. Even the Jews understood his words because they replied, “You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham”?
The English does not always bode well with the Greek or the Hebrew.Why do you think the Jews have denied Yeshua as a god for the last 2000 years, they could accept him easier as a prophet, teacher, wise one and even the Messiah! Long before they would accept him as a god. It is their writings, their books, Jesus was a Jew not a god, the Apostles were Jews, minus a few down the road. It wasn't until the trinitarian council officially made him a god that it took affect. And threateaned the arian views with their very lives if they chose to go against the edict.
Funny thing even athiests celebrate his alledged birth 2000 years ago every christmas. The bible is not silent when he came into the world.
Jesus is the son of God, the Word of God, and the messiah. He is all these but he is not God.Just because the Trinity Doctrine is rightly rejected, doesn't mean that we also reject that he was with the Father before the world began. If we throw out everything Trinitarians believe, then we have to also throw out the truth that he is the messiah and the son of God too.
Let scripture teach you and let scripture show you the picture. Men are too fond of picking and choosing what they want. As it is written:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Scripture clearly says that his beginnings are from ancient times. I believe that, you obviously do not.
I agree t8! I also believe that the Scriptures that I have given before are clear. Like
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
And by Jesus own words in
John 17:5
He said that He had a glory which He wanted back. So what glory other then Spirit. And He was as a Spirit being before the world was.
Those that believe in the trinity will go to far and say that He always existed and those that do not believe He never existed until He became a man. Take your pick. How ironic is that.
Peace and Love IreneIrene
Quote And by Jesus own words in
John 17:5
He said that He had a glory which He wanted back. So what glory other then Spirit. And He was as a Spirit being before the world was.The anonymous writer of John, whoever he was, SAID that Jesus said it.
Of course we have no reliable source for anything Jesus said, at least not to the extent that would be good enough pass a simple school history essay. To claim to know what Jesus said should be counted as a fail in the classroom…
…except in fundie school classrooms that have pictures of children riding on the backs of dinosaurs…
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2009,11:29) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 24 2009,21:18) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 24 2009,02:01) Not assumption. The reason why people do not believe that Jesus was created on the spot 2000 or so years ago is because there are quite a number of scriptures that are contrary to this notion. It is easy to debunk the Trinity and all sorts of other doctrines because you can use scripture to show otherwise. I can do exactly the same thing with the teaching that Jesus was created 2000 (or so) years ago.
I believe if you are honest you can see it because it is quite clear. If you cannot see it, it is because something is getting in the way. That something could be bias, another teaching, a spirit, or whatever.
The other thing to note is that it doesn't say anywhere that he was created (2000 or so years ago). But Jesus said with his own mouth “before Abraham I am”. Of course the notion that he was claiming to be God is ridiculous, he was instead claiming that he existed. Even the Jews understood his words because they replied, “You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham”?
The English does not always bode well with the Greek or the Hebrew.Why do you think the Jews have denied Yeshua as a god for the last 2000 years, they could accept him easier as a prophet, teacher, wise one and even the Messiah! Long before they would accept him as a god. It is their writings, their books, Jesus was a Jew not a god, the Apostles were Jews, minus a few down the road. It wasn't until the trinitarian council officially made him a god that it took affect. And threateaned the arian views with their very lives if they chose to go against the edict.
Funny thing even athiests celebrate his alledged birth 2000 years ago every christmas. The bible is not silent when he came into the world.
Jesus is the son of God, the Word of God, and the messiah. He is all these but he is not God.Just because the Trinity Doctrine is rightly rejected, doesn't mean that we also reject that he was with the Father before the world began. If we throw out everything Trinitarians believe, then we have to also throw out the truth that he is the messiah and the son of God too.
Let scripture teach you and let scripture show you the picture. Men are too fond of picking and choosing what they want. As it is written:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Scripture clearly says that his beginnings are from ancient times. I believe that, you obviously do not.
Hi t8:You say:
Quote then we have to also throw out the truth that he is the messiah and the son of God too. I don't understand your reasoning here t8. God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and so, how would we have to throw this revelation out if we don't believe that he pre-existed.
There is no question that he exists now, and that is what we should be preaching.
I agree with CT that it is a shame that we get involved in these strange doctrines which have no bearing at all on the salvation of God's children, and are just doctrines which keep us debating whether or not these doctrines are true or not.
I don't believe that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world, but I am certainly not throwing out the fact that he is the Christ the Son of the Living God. He is, and I know by the Spirit of the Living God who testifies to this reality within me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 27 2009,10:08) I don't understand your reasoning here t8. God has revealed to humanity that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and so, how would we have to throw this revelation out if we don't believe that he pre-existed.
Agreed. It doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion. That conclusion is drawn from a myriad of other scripture.I agree that Jesus did not exist as Jesus before He was born as Jesus. He did exist prior to His birth as the Word (of God). The idea that Jesus existed as the Son of God from all eternity, and throughout Old Testament time, comes to us from Roman Catholic Church teaching that claims that the second person of the (mystery) trinity always existed. But, birth is always a beginning, just as death is always an end. Jesus, truly and literally, BECAME the Son of God 2000 years ago, when the Word BECAME flesh, when Mary was impregnated by God and gave birth to the (only so) begotten and firstborn Son of God.
Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 06 2009,18:19) I agree that Jesus did not exist as Jesus before He was born as Jesus. He did exist prior to His birth as the Word (of God). The idea that Jesus existed as the Son of God from all eternity, and throughout Old Testament time, comes to us from Roman Catholic Church teaching that claims that the second person of the (mystery) trinity always existed. But, birth is always a beginning, just as death is always an end. Jesus, truly and literally, BECAME the Son of God 2000 years ago, when the Word BECAME flesh, when Mary was impregnated by God and gave birth to the (only so) begotten and firstborn Son of God.
You have a mechanism for this transformation of “word” to flesh? Or do you just expect people to accept your claims of magic?Specifically, where do you think Jesus's Y chromosome came from?
By the way, there are no eyewitnesses to any of this, so you are promulgating hearsay anyway.
Welcome to Heavennet, by the way!
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Thanks for welcoming me to Heavennet.
There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the birth of Christ and what you label hearsay, I accept as the Word of God. Jesus’ chromosome, the WORD (seed, sperm) came from God His Father – who else? There was no magic involved. God impregnated Mary and she gave birth to the Son of God. The mechanism is called procreation with which you should be familiar with, for that is how you came into the world. God did not become a man; God fathered a son who was born as a man.Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 07 2009,17:55) Hi Stu,
Thanks for welcoming me to Heavennet.
There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the birth of Christ and what you label hearsay, I accept as the Word of God. Jesus’ chromosome, the WORD (seed, sperm) came from God His Father – who else? There was no magic involved. God impregnated Mary and she gave birth to the Son of God. The mechanism is called procreation with which you should be familiar with, for that is how you came into the world. God did not become a man; God fathered a son who was born as a man.
Re: eyewitnesses to ANYTHING Jesus did: can you name even ONE who, beyond reasonable doubt, actually saw Jesus and wrote down any observations of him?Re Y chromosome: “The WORD” is not a biological process with which I am familiar. When you say Jesus's Y chromosome “came from God his Father”, exactly HOW did that happen? How did this god of which you write affect matter in order that it be fashioned into a sequences of bases attached through ribose to a phosphate chain to make DNA? You may think this a trivial question but if you cannot answer it then you have not answered my question. By the way, my Y chromosome came from my father, which is not how you are saying Jesus was conceived, so where is the comparison?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 07 2009,19:23) Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 07 2009,17:55) Hi Stu,
Thanks for welcoming me to Heavennet.
There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the birth of Christ and what you label hearsay, I accept as the Word of God. Jesus’ chromosome, the WORD (seed, sperm) came from God His Father – who else? There was no magic involved. God impregnated Mary and she gave birth to the Son of God. The mechanism is called procreation with which you should be familiar with, for that is how you came into the world. God did not become a man; God fathered a son who was born as a man.
Re: eyewitnesses to ANYTHING Jesus did: can you name even ONE who, beyond reasonable doubt, actually saw Jesus and wrote down any observations of him?Re Y chromosome: “The WORD” is not a biological process with which I am familiar. When you say Jesus's Y chromosome “came from God his Father”, exactly HOW did that happen? How did this god of which you write affect matter in order that it be fashioned into a sequences of bases attached through ribose to a phosphate chain to make DNA? You may think this a trivial question but if you cannot answer it then you have not answered my question. By the way, my Y chromosome came from my father, which is not how you are saying Jesus was conceived, so where is the comparison?
Stuart
Are you serious you prefer Abiogenesis as a possibility but you don't accept biogenesis as a certainty?You show your own lack of knowledge on one hand you believe in spontaneous physical evolution and yet you find it difficult to believe in a simple phenomenon as pregnancy?
Even if you did not believe in God you should be able to imagine possible physical anomolies that could cause such a birth to occur instead you approach it from a theological viewpoint which is not possible for someone who is a-theist.
The fact is words do vibrate and cells do vibrate do you realize that most of your substance consists solely of space followed by water? Can sound/vibration create a change in cells.
If Microwaves can cook through vibration what makes you think that another type of sound could not cause cellular division and growth or for that matter change an X chromosone into a Y chromosome we all know that it is a fact that certain species will completely change gender in certain circumstances, So if God sends a Word with Power to a Virgin why would that be hard to comprehend?
bodhitharta
Quote Are you serious you prefer Abiogenesis as a possibility but you don't accept biogenesis as a certainty?
Biogenesis is a certainty, which probably followed one (or perhaps more) events of abiogenesis. It is the creationist who rejects biogenesis to the extent that it gave rise to speciation.Quote You show your own lack of knowledge on one hand you believe in spontaneous physical evolution and yet you find it difficult to believe in a simple phenomenon as pregnancy?
Do you find it hard to understand the difference between conception and gestation? Once again, it is not me who believes in spontaneous generation of human beings, that would be you.Quote Even if you did not believe in God you should be able to imagine possible physical anomolies that could cause such a birth to occur instead you approach it from a theological viewpoint which is not possible for someone who is a-theist.
Please explain those anomalies to me, and how they achieve their magic. Otherwise I will retain my interest in the science that says that, partly for reasons to do with differentiation of the functions of genes carried on the sex chromosomes, human parthenogenesis is not possible. While christianity is only one of many religions that claimed virgin birth of its demigod, there has never been a religion that has been able to come up with verification of their virgin birth myth. So, if you have extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim, let’s hear it!Quote The fact is words do vibrate and cells do vibrate do you realize that most of your substance consists solely of space followed by water? Can sound/vibration create a change in cells.
Truly lame.Quote If Microwaves can cook through vibration what makes you think that another type of sound could not cause cellular division and growth or for that matter change an X chromosone into a Y chromosome we all know that it is a fact that certain species will completely change gender in certain circumstances, So if God sends a Word with Power to a Virgin why would that be hard to comprehend?
1. Microwaves are not sound waves.
2. If we are talking about just an egg cell, then there is only one sex chromosome present, an X. If that changed into a Y, the zygote would be unquestionably rendered invalid (a Y chromosome is analogous to an X, but because it has a ‘leg’ missing there is critical genetic information that you can only get from the X. Hence male zygotes are XY, not just Y.)
3. You can assert as much magical divine interference as you like. I can make up whatever fantasy story I want too, but I choose to try and base my beliefs on reality as much as possible, so I am afraid your claims of magic do not strike me as very impressive.Stuart
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 23 2009,03:45) DB…………Absolutely, Jesus was foreordained (preplanned) before His berth , then at the right time was Born, came into the world by berth , just exactly as we do, and was (Begotten) or Born of GOD at the day He was Baptized in the Jordan By John the Baptist. As the voice of GOD said (this day) i have begotten you, at that time he received the fullness of Holy Spirit and became a born Son of GOD, the same way we do, When we are born of GOD by His spirit, we then contain the seed of our FATHER GOD in us, as it say “His seed abides in you” and again ” Know you not that you are (NOW) the sons of God.” God's Spirit (IN) a person is HIS SEED and HIS NATURE is (IN) His SEED, and (ALL) who Have this SEED have HIS NATURE IN THEM. They are Born from above (NOW) . Blessing on all who understand this. IMO Jean, I agree that Jesus was foreordained (preplanned) before His birth, then at the right time (the “fullness of time”) was born, came into the world by birth, just exactly as we do.
I do not agree with the next statement that says: “and was (Begotten) or Born of God at the day He was Baptized in the Jordon By John the Baptist.”
First of all “begotten” is not the same as “born.” There is a time interval between “begettal” and “birth.” Nine month for a physical birth, and unto death for a spiritual birth. Jesus was begotten of God at Mary’s conception when she was impregnated by God. Nine month later Jesus was born of Mary as a (fully) human being. At the same time He continued to be (only) a begotten Son of God able to sin and to die. When Jesus was baptized by John, He was baptized not because He needed to repent of sin (for He never sinned) but to receive, as you said, the fullness of the Holy Spirit, but primarily He was baptized as an example for us.
When Jesus was baptized at age 30, He already was as a (begotten) Son of God, since Mary’s conception by God. He did not become a (born) Son of God until He finished His work on the cross, and after three days and three nights in the grave, when He was resurrected (born again) by God His Father.
If Jesus would have been already born of God, i.e., be fully God at His baptism, He could not have died 3 ½ years later, for (fully) God cannot die.
Jesus was a born human being and a begotten God being during His 33 ½ years on earth, just as you are a born human being and a begotten God being, if the Spirit of God dwells in you.
You may want to consider my article: The “Double Nature” of Jesus Christ available at: http://www.logoslogic.info/doublenature.html
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