Jesus did not pre-exist

[georg]

Quote (martian @ Nov. 14 2009,04:18)

I am not interested in scriptural proofs since no one has agreed to a set of rules by which we can all interpret them. Without those rules of interpretation it becomes my word/opinion against theirs. I will begin with a few assumptions — I. Jesus is Gods only begotten son. II. Jesus had a two fold ministry A. To be the blood sacrifice. The spotless lamb. B. To be our example as how to walk with God. To follow in his steps. 1. To grow into the Bride of Christ. 2. To develop the character of God as Christ did. 3. To learn to overcome as Christ did. 4. To be worthy of resurrection as Christ was. For purposes of this thread I would like those that believe in a preexistent Christ to answer a few very basic questions. Did Christ exist in a conscious/sentient state in his preexistent life? If so, what happened to the memories of his experiences from that life? Did he carry those memories into his Earthly life? Did Christ have any advantage over the rest of humanity in overcoming sin because of his preexistence? Did Christ have any advantage in his resurrection because of his preexistence? These following two or the most important questions. How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart?

Martin What makes YOU so sure that Nick does not possess the things YOU listed here?
Some just don't have an ounce of respect for authority and Love. All that I have gotten out of your post's is criticism. That towards an Administrator IMO is not the attitude YOU should have.
We have been her too for some time now, changing uses names. My Husband has a good understanding of Prophecy, that none understand either. So just take it easy with YOUR
criticism.
As far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, yes He did otherwise He coul not have said this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father, golrify Me with the glory which I had with Yourself before the world was.”
Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” If He was created by the Father first of All creation, He was thee.”
Also in
Col. 1:15-18
This shows us that Jesus was first in all. He had preeminence over all.
First to be born, firstborn, and firstborn of the death, resurrection.
Some of YOUR question about the Preexisting of Jesus, can't be answered. Why, because He was not all like us. He is the only begotten Son of us, and not the adopted Sons of God, like us. He is only like us, that He took on flesh. And in flesh He suffered all for us. IMO God had to send someone like Jesus, in order to save us. To became the perfect Sacrifice for us. That is what Jesus is. Our Mediator to go to the Throne of God now and ask for the forgiveness of our sins, no other Sacrifce needed, like in the Old Testament time.
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 16 2009,02:54)

Quote (martian @ Nov. 14 2009,04:18) I am not interested in scriptural proofs since no one has agreed to a set of rules by which we can all interpret them. Without those rules of interpretation it becomes my word/opinion against theirs. I will begin with a few assumptions — I. Jesus is Gods only begotten son. II. Jesus had a two fold ministry A. To be the blood sacrifice. The spotless lamb. B. To be our example as how to walk with God. To follow in his steps. 1. To grow into the Bride of Christ. 2. To develop the character of God as Christ did. 3. To learn to overcome as Christ did. 4. To be worthy of resurrection as Christ was. For purposes of this thread I would like those that believe in a preexistent Christ to answer a few very basic questions. Did Christ exist in a conscious/sentient state in his preexistent life? If so, what happened to the memories of his experiences from that life? Did he carry those memories into his Earthly life? Did Christ have any advantage over the rest of humanity in overcoming sin because of his preexistence? Did Christ have any advantage in his resurrection because of his preexistence? These following two or the most important questions. How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ? How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart? Martin  What makes YOU so sure that Nick does not possess the things YOU listed here? Some just don't have an ounce of respect for authority and Love.  All that I have gotten out of your post's is criticism.  That towards an Administrator IMO is not the attitude YOU should have. We have been her too for some time now, changing uses names.  My Husband has a good understanding of Prophecy, that none understand either.  So just take it easy with YOUR criticism. As far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, yes He did otherwise He coul not have said this in John 17:5 “And now O Father, golrify Me with the glory which I had with Yourself before the world was.” Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”  If He was created by the Father first of All creation, He was thee.” Also in Col. 1:15-18 This shows us that Jesus was first in all.  He had preeminence over all. First to be born, firstborn, and firstborn of the death, resurrection. Some of YOUR question about the Preexisting of Jesus, can't be answered. Why, because He was not all like us.  He is the only begotten Son of us, and not the adopted Sons of God, like us. He is only like us, that He took on flesh.  And in flesh He suffered all for us.  IMO God had to send someone like Jesus, in order to save us.  To became the perfect Sacrifice for us.  That is what Jesus is.  Our Mediator to go to the Throne of God now and ask for the forgiveness of our sins, no other Sacrifce needed, like in the Old Testament time. Peace and Love Irene

John 17:5 “And now O Father, golrify Me with the glory which I had with Yourself before the world was.”
Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” If He was created by the Father first of All creation, He was thee.”
Also in
Col. 1:15-18
This shows us that Jesus was first in all. He had preeminence over all.
First to be born, firstborn, and firstborn of the death, resurrection.
Some of YOUR question about the Preexisting of Jesus, can't be answered. Why, because He was not all like us. He is the only begotten Son of us, and not the adopted Sons of God, like us. He is only like us, that He took on flesh. And in flesh He suffered all for us. IMO God had to send someone like Jesus, in order to save us. To became the perfect Sacrifice for us. That is what Jesus is. Our Mediator to go to the Throne of God now and ask for the forgiveness of our sins, no other Sacrifce needed, like in the Old Testament time.
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

soory posted the wrong page —
John 17:5 “And now O Father, golrify Me with the glory which I had with Yourself before the world was.”

Reply –
What does it really say was with God — the glory. I have no problem seeing God set aside glory for the Messiah.

Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” If He was created by the Father first of All creation, He was thee.”

Reply –
First you must understand that those that wrote scripture lived in a different culture then us. They had no concept for “created from nothing” The word create in the Hebrew mind means to fatten or come into completion. He was the beginning of the completion or fattening of God’s plan.

Also in
Col. 1:15-18
This shows us that Jesus was first in all. He had preeminence over all.
First to be born, firstborn, and firstborn of the death, resurrection.

Reply –
None of these indicate a preexistence. As in the previous verse Jesus is the first to complete God’s plan. First from the dead and first in order of importance among all his sons.

Some of YOUR question about the Preexisting of Jesus, can't be answered. Why, because He was not all like us.

Reply –
That is the point. If he is different then us then some scriptures are contradicted that say he was made like his brothers in EVERY WAY.
Secondly for him to be a correct and perfect example for us he must be the same as us. What kind of comparison is it if a God is raised from the dead to a man being raised from the dead. What comparison can be made between he and us if he has any advantage due to a preexistence. I can never know if he resisted sin because he is God or man or that he walked with God because he knew what heaven was really like from living there. I will bet that if you or I lived in heaven for even 1 day we would find it a lot easier to walk with God on this Earth.
How does the doctrine of the preexistence help me become more like Christ?
How does the doctrine of the Preexistence build hope in my heart?
These two questions should be the most important questions we all ask about this doctrine. We are all subject to error in interpretation. (no matter how careful we are)

God does not deal in idle philosophy. His doctrines are functinal. they produce fruit in his children.
What fruit can be produced from this doctrine? Only negative ones. It makes Christ less of a viable example. It brings everything Christ did into the realms of speculation. there is no longer a clear example to follow. God is a just God. He would not ask us to follow an example that is not clear.

The question becomes, Why believe in a doctrine that makes Christ less clear as my example?

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene…….Thats the point , those who think Jesus was (NOT) exactly like us think GOD was unable to Take an ordinary human being and teach Him obedience and perfect Him, So they conjure up this preexistent being of some super powers in a past life, To try to give reason for Human making it. Rather then realizing GOD in order to Show mankind His power to perfect and save us , by taking one of Us and ordinary Human and perfected Him and raised Him from the Grave , So we could realize what GOD did for Jesus and ordinary human being Just like us in (EVERY) way and Saved HIM,he could do for us. Jesus had (NO) advantage over (ANY) of US , other than GOD was fully with him. The doctrine of preexistence and the Trinity are both hand and hand false teachings.

And Irene if you get time read Isa 44:24…..> Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that makes (ALL) things; that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE) and spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF).

Now what part of the do you not understand IRENE, GOD said (HE) Made (ALL) things, and even more HE said (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF)

How does that fit in you belief system of Jesus creating every thing,  remember GOD said he did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF). If he was (ALONE) that means NO ONE WAS WITH HIM right> Ignoring these scriptures to fit a preexistence false teaching is wrong IRENE. We are told to search the scriptures like the Bereans did and the scriptures they examined were the (OLD TESTAMENT ) Scriptures. They would have never believed that Jesus created everything . Because they would have seen in their scripture just what i have quoted, but you and others here choose to just ignore them as if they did not exist or try to figure a way around them to justify your dogmas and false teachings. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg…………………..gene

[martian]

All through scripture God and Christ speak of judging by the fruit produced. I have spoken many times about the functionality of doctrine. A functional doctrine will produce positive fruit. Unfortunately many are not wiling to examine the fruit of their doctrines. They want to grind out supposed scriptural proofs that others can then counter with their own supposed scriptural proofs. The cycle goes on and on and nothing is accomplished. When ask for an example of the good fruit produced by various doctrines the question is widely ignored. This unfortunately is rampant among Christians. They have become doctrinal rather then functional. They spend countless hours attempting to prove that their particular doctrine is correct scripturally and never ask if their doctrine actually produces anything in their lives.
For example —
I believe that Christ overcame temptation and that he was tempted just like other men even unto death. Because I also believe that Christ was fully human with no advantage over us stemming from a preexistence, I can look at his example and have hope. I have hope that I too can overcome temptation and resist sin as he did. This is a functional doctrine. It produces the positive fruit of hope in my heart.
If I were to believe that Christ had any advantage over us by way of a preexistence or divinity then I could not believe that he was tempted in the same manner that other men are tempted. He would be tempted as a God and I am tempted as a man. I would not be able to use his overcoming as a viable example and no hope could be produced. In fact the fruits that are produced from this doctrine are clearly bad. It produces doubt in my ability to follow his example. It shows no human as I am overcoming temptation. This is a dysfunctional doctrine. It does not work to help me become like Christ.

If a doctrine produces no fruit, or worse, produces bad fruit it needs cutting down and thrown in the fire like the bad fig tree.

[martian]

When some argue that preexistence is true it is like examining a newly designed motor. The designer can postulate all day long about how well designed the motor is but if it does not run, what's the point.
If the doctrine produces no fruit what's the point?

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
So it must satisfy greek logic?
Is that what you call fruit?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,01:30)

Hi M, So it must satisfy greek logic? Is that what you call fruit?

Jesus cursed a vine that produced no fruit.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,06:30)

Hi M, So it must satisfy greek logic? Is that what you call fruit?

Did I say that? stop the stupidity!!!!!!!
Is producing godly hope in the heart satisfying greek logic?

You throw up the logic card every time you are pressed into a corner. The fact is that of all the people on here you produce more Greek thinking then most.
I do not believe you have a clue about Greek or Hebrew thought processes in respect to proper doctrine.

[martian]

the bible also says that good teaching/doctrines produces good fruit. since all of our interpretations are subject to error the more definitive test is the fruit that is produced. It is almost impossible to find two christians that will agree on a proper method of interpretation of scripture so it becomes my opinion versus yours. there is no opinion about fruit. Either it is there or it is not.
1 Tim
3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
(doctrine should conform us to godliness or produce fruit)
4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

1 Corinthians 14:26
What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification.

(Teaching is for the edification or building up of the saints)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
( teaching should equip us for every good work – fruit)
I ask again –
How does your doctrine equip me for every good work?
How does it edify me?
How is it profitable?
How does it help me conform to godliness?

[GeneBalthrop]

martian….>Well said brother……………peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

[terraricca]

hi m
short, sweet,and true
I wander if we would not let more people know that there is 1500 years info on the trinity why discuss and develop again and again.
we wast time to clarifying things over and over and somtimes to the person.
some people dont seam not even know the scriptures based on the question they ask.
i find most of the quotes good and helpfull,but it seem to become moor academic has we go on.

this is my view

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2009,19:55)

hi m short, sweet,and true I wander if we would not let more people know that there is 1500 years info on the trinity why discuss and develop again and again. we wast time to clarifying things over and over and somtimes to the person. some people dont seam not even know the scriptures based on the question they ask. i find most of the quotes good and helpfull,but it seem to become moor academic has we go on. this is my view

The more you grind and sift the wheat, the better it tastes.

[terraricca]

hi ron
my name is Pierre, to the extention that there is nothing left of it.then there will be no taste

[martian]

did everybody go on vacation?

[martian]

Is there no more discussion on this subject?

[GeneBalthrop]

martian……it's been kicked around so much everyone seems to have exhausted themselves on the subject. There appears to be three camps. One believes in the Trinity and Preexistence, another does not believe in the Trinity but believes in the Preexistence of Jesus, while another does not believe in any Trinity or Preexistence Doctrine, I am in that camp. So we just keep going around and around no one seem to change their views , Except some who pass through the site have had many questions answered they never thought of before, So we can say it has produced some fruit and we are to be convencing People in the Millennium Reign of Christ, so may be all these question we deal with will have a future value to us all. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

CT and terrarccia……………..The more we filter the waters the clear the water becomes. But there is a point where the dross reaches the top and must be scraped off to reveal the pure gold. There is a point where you need to turn off the fire lest you burn up the Gold with the dross. God's Laws are considered Judgments as a FIRE, and there is a scripture that say they Keep the law or Fire going until the dross (wickedness) came to the top but failed to skim it of, but kept the fire going so they burned up the gold with the dross. There is a balance to it all. And remember also some have spent all theirs live taught false doctrine and it not always easy to remove that thinking. IMO

peace and love to you both……………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

martian ……..would like you and CT..to post a clear and concise view of your reasons for not believing in the Preexistence of Jesus again , and try to take in consideration all sound reasons for not believing in it and how that doctrine goes against the wok and Purpose of GOD. These two Doctrines really do destory truth and Hope for millions of People. IMO

peace and love to you both……………….gene

[martian]

My primary stand centers around the overall plan of God as in clear in scripture.
Many think only of the redemption work of Christ as the plan of God. It is certainly part of the plan but just redeeming man from sin is not the end.
Adam and Eve were not in need of redemption, so one must ask what was God’s original plan before the fall? All through scripture mankind is called children of God. Along with that distinction is the teaching aspects of God’s interaction with man. God continues to compare our actions with those he would do. From these truths it is clear that God desires us to develop character like his.
It is important to understand some things about God’s character. YHWH is the only being in the universe whose character cannot change. God is the height of perfection. Because of this he cannot decide today to be capable of evil. Nor can he suddenly become less then immortal. This causes question because we do not know what a human being is supposed to be like with the character of God.
The redeeming work of Christ is simply the legal means by which we can become part of God’s plan again. We stand clear of sin after repentance. As far as the East from the West. The blood is effective. We are forgiven from our sins of the past, present and future. Once the blood of the lamb is applied to us it is time to get up wash our face and continue along God’s plan.
That plan is to perfect the saints in character, motives and intentions.
For this portion of the plan it was necessary to produce an example for us to understand what human being looks like with all the character of God developed in them. Jesus was perfected by what he suffered for his own sake and for ours. Jesus completed the plan that God set into motion with the creation of Adam and Eve. He is the second Adam. The one that fulfilled what God started to complete with Adam.
With Jesus as a completed perfected human we have a High Priest that knows all the pitfalls of the journey to perfection. A High Priest that we can talk to and use as our mediator between us and God. A judge that knows our limitations and frailities.

We need the redemption work of Christ to allow us to “legally” be part of the plan of God
We need the example of Jesus as a perfected human to see how and what a completed human looks like.

[Author]

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