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Gene B.
The apostles did not see Jesus as He really is.
Therefore His appearence was not as he really is.
When we are changed; then we will see Him as He really is.
Therefore we can not use His appearing to the apostles
As proof; that He is flesh and blood.Because that is not what He really is.
Do you understand.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 09 2014,13:21) Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2014,06:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2014,08:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,10:00) Wakeup, It is written that Moses saw God face to face………
Kerwin,It is written that God SPOKE TO Moses “face to face”.
Deuteronomy 5:4
The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.Deuteronomy 4:12
Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.Deuteronomy 4:15
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.
Mike,We have spoken of these and I believe we have come to agreement that no man has seen God's features.
I believe angels have not either but you disagree on that point.
I was pointing out to wakeup that face to face does not mean that a person saw God's features.
Kerwin.You need to go through all the bibles you can get, to find one that suits your believe;
Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
No one has seen Jesus as he is,the jesus the apostles saw was not as he really is. So can not be used as evidence that he is flesh.wakeup.
Wakeup,If I was writing to you I would have used the AV version of the JKB as you choose to blind yourself to its faults. In most cases they are not grievous enough to effect the truth. This is one of those cases.
The truth is the translators of it were biased in their selection of meaning for each word they chose to translate and their translation has a 17th Century Church of England bias. It was changed in the 18th Century to make in uniform and the bias of those that changed it is also present.
These are not passages I selected so I am not going to say anymore about them here. I will address them when I quote them or when I am asked, neither of which you did.
Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,22:00) Quote (Wakeup @ May 07 2014,17:39) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,14:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2014,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2014,06:51) Mike, 2) But they evidence you have presented that God has a form is evidence that humans have seen that form. If Moses saw the appearance of God's back then he saw God.
Moses asked to see God's glory…. not His form.
Mike,Yes, that is my point. Moses did not see God's form. No Prophet or other human being saw his form. That would do away with most or all of your evidence that God has a form.
Kerwin.We wil see God face to face.
He has a face.
He can appear as anything he pleases.
God is a spirit.wakeup.
Wakeup,It is written that Moses saw God face to face and in another place it is written no one as seen God but it also written no man has seen God. So do you disagree that no man has seen God or that Moses saw him face to face?
If you believe both then you acknowledge believers will see God face to face as Moses did for God is invisible.
Wakeup,This is what I am saying to you.
Exodus 33:21-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
So according to this Moses saw God, even though just his back, and yet it is written:
John 1:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Since no man has seen God's similitude then Moses could not have seen God's appearance. If you read the context then you will find out Moses did not ask to see God's appearance. Instead he asked to see God's goodness and glory.
God answered him by saying:
Exodus 33:20
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Those that see God's face and live are those that see his full glory and goodness and not just the reduced side of it. Mortal men cannot do that.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 09 2014,06:21) Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2014,09:19) Quote (Wakeup @ May 08 2014,14:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2014,15:01) Hi WU, Jesus said his body was flesh and bone but you deny this?
Nick.Yep.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Jesus gave evidence he was not a spirit but you claim he was.
Kerwin.I know that Jesus appeared in the flesh.
You must find out the reason why.
Because in the resurrection we all have a new body.
A scrard face person will not be resurrected with a scard face. Or would he?So why was Jesus resurrected with all his wounds?
It is for you to find out why.wakeup.
Wakeup,Men wear medals of the brave deeds they did and Jesus' scars are just marks of the righteous deed of Jesus that provided a way for each and every human being to be free.
If Jesus wanted his scars healed they would have been.
Wakeup,
Have you explained to Nick why you believe that Thomas wanting to thrust his hand into Jesus' side does not mean that he would not believe Jesus was alive until he thrust his hand into Jesus' mortal wound?
Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:53) Wakeup, Have you explained to Nick why you believe that Thomas wanting to thrust his hand into Jesus' side does not mean that he would not believe Jesus was alive until he thrust his hand into Jesus' mortal wound?
Kerwin.I think Nick knows this.
Humans must see with their eyes and touch ,feel and smell
to believe. Jesus did it to proof that it was not just a vision or a dream.He also did it to Paul, for he was blinded for three days.
To proof that it was not just a dream or a vision.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:35) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,22:00) Quote (Wakeup @ May 07 2014,17:39) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,14:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2014,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2014,06:51) Mike, 2) But they evidence you have presented that God has a form is evidence that humans have seen that form. If Moses saw the appearance of God's back then he saw God.
Moses asked to see God's glory…. not His form.
Mike,Yes, that is my point. Moses did not see God's form. No Prophet or other human being saw his form. That would do away with most or all of your evidence that God has a form.
Kerwin.We wil see God face to face.
He has a face.
He can appear as anything he pleases.
God is a spirit.wakeup.
Wakeup,It is written that Moses saw God face to face and in another place it is written no one as seen God but it also written no man has seen God. So do you disagree that no man has seen God or that Moses saw him face to face?
If you believe both then you acknowledge believers will see God face to face as Moses did for God is invisible.
Wakeup,This is what I am saying to you.
Exodus 33:21-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
So according to this Moses saw God, even though just his back, and yet it is written:
John 1:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Since no man has seen God's similitude then Moses could not have seen God's appearance. If you read the context then you will find out Moses did not ask to see God's appearance. Instead he asked to see God's goodness and glory.
God answered him by saying:
Exodus 33:20
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Those that see God's face and live are those that see his full glory and goodness and not just the reduced side of it. Mortal men cannot do that.
Kerwin.When all is finished and done we will see God's face.
He will dwell with us.wakeup.
Wakeup,
I believe God is invisible but his actions and words can be seen in those who do his work. I also that we can currently not see the face of God's glory and goodness without dying but a time will come when we will be able to.
Wakeup…….Your teaching is nothing new, the Gnostic's of Paul's and John's day taught the same thing, they believed Jesus was just a disguised God, a Spirit being disguised in a human body. This lead them to all kind of false teachings.
That is why John repeated three times in his letters said that, whosoever believes that Jesus Christ “CAME NOT” in the flesh “IS an ANTICHRIST”, this is you because you do not believe Jesus was pure Human being Just as we are, even though he said 80 times he was and he would return as one, you have added to the text you own personal views, but produce no scriptural proofs.
That is EXACTLY what Satan wants people to believe that Jesus was not a human being , that he was completely different then we are, you and all Trinitarians and Preexistence's are playing right into his hands and don't even realize it. Those false teaching of Jesus not being raise with a flesh and done body is all part of “MYSTERY RELIGION” and from the very synagogues of Satan himself.
Nick and I have properly explained it to you, you simply refuse to believe the truth, Just as other false Trinitarian and Preexistence's teachers do, you have simply bought into the “BIGGEST LIE” ever told it is EXACTLY WHAT SATAN WANT YOU TO BELIEVE.
Jesus Christ was and is a PURE HUMAN BEING, he was and is now, and hss now, “PHYSICAL BODY”, that is being “SPIRITUALLY” sustained, Just as our Resurrected or Changed , PHYSICAL FLESH AND BONE BODIES Will be also.
Know you not your “BODY” is the temple of the living God. You also do not believe God the Father was truly “IN” Jesus Because you believe Jesus was a GOD Himself even though He “PLAINLY Said in Prayer, FOR “THOU” ARE THE “ONLY' TRUE GOD
You have bought the whole package hook, line, and sinker Wakeup. You are neglecting the words in Revelation, which says to us all, come out of Her ” Mystery Babylon” (confusion), my people, that you receive not of her plagues. The plague of the false church and Her teachings is babel or confusion. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2014,22:01) Mike, I am not saying that there cannot be selective invisibility. I am saying the way it is written when speaking of Jehovah has no context to base the claim there is selectivity in his case.
No,It was said by Jesus himself that certain angels “always see the face of my Father in heaven”.
It is only YOUR selectivity, which is based on your personal wishes for God not to have a form, that is causing you the problem.
You WANT to believe that Jesus was talking metaphorically in that verse, because of your personal beliefs. But the form of God is described in many scriptures, by men who have visited His throne in visions and dreams.
Not to mention that the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”. And in Phil 2:6, Paul made it clear that God HAS an “outward appearance”.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 09 2014,09:17) Gene B. The apostles did not see Jesus as He really is.
Therefore His appearence was not as he really is.
When we are changed; then we will see Him as He really is.
Therefore we can not use His appearing to the apostles
As proof; that He is flesh and blood.Because that is not what He really is.
Do you understand.wakeup.
I do. You have explained it according to scriptures, Wakeup.They explain it according to their own personal WISHES for Jesus to be a flesh human being just like us, who just happens to live in the SPIRIT realm of heaven.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2014,10:54) Hi WU,
The one you contend with is greater than you.
The Lord
I don't know why you and Wakeup are butting heads, Nick.You are both teaching the same thing – as far as I can tell.
Mike,
Quote It was said by Jesus himself that certain angels “always see the face of my Father in heaven”. It was said by God that a mortal human being cannot see his face except they perish. You have agreed that he was speaking of his glory and goodness. This is because Moses saw his back and Moses could not have seen Jehovah as no man has seen Jehovah. A child's messenger is no mortal.
Hi GB,
Whether or not the new body has any resemblance to flesh is unknown.
We are told we will be like to the angels.
Manna is the food of angelsPsalm 78:25
Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth itQuote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,12:19) It was said by God that a mortal human being cannot see his face except they perish. You have agreed that he was speaking of his glory and goodness.
I have agreed to no such thing, Kerwin.It wouldn't make sense to agree to such a thing. Moses asked to see God's glory, and WAS allowed to see it.
He WASN'T allowed to see God's face.
Therefore, God's “glory” and God's “face” are not the same thing.
Hi,
Psalm 78:24
And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.Nick,
I tend to believe that Jesus' resurrection is an example of the final resurrection as he is the firstborn of the dead.
Since the body Jesus was raised in was flesh and bone and there is no evidence of any change in his body afterwards I see no reason to doubt that the resurrected body is flesh and bone.
I know you believe Jesus bore wounds on his flesh but I disagree because the Koine Greek word for “in” and “on” are both the same word. I do know that every translation I have found does translate it as “in”.
Some understand the words differently. The saying “I poked him in the side” does not mean that the poke entered the side of the one being poked. In a like way they believe Thomas put his finger in Jesus side but not in his wound.
The question is should we assume it is speaking of him putting his finger in the Jesus' grievous wound or that he put it in the scar of the healed wound? Wakeup assumes the later.
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