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Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 17 2013,14:35) Your argument was (in essence): since “AB” is used in Isaiah 9:6
this fact precludes “God the Father” because he is “ABBA” instead.
Not so.
I was asking a question, not making a statement.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 16 2013,18:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,07:26) Ed, Look at these last three definitions of “ab”……..
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (spec.)Any one of those three would fit Jesus.
7) “Everlasting protector”.
8) “Everlasting deserver of our respect”.
9) “Everlasting ruler”.Am I right?
Hi Mike,I say “No”
Luke 1:33
and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”Hmmm…………… Those scriptural words above sound EXACTLY LIKE definition #9, don't you think?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 17 2013,16:06) Mike……..I agree with ED J…….Jesus in not those things, He is also not “the EVERLASTING FATHER ” either.
Hi Gene,Read my above post to Ed, and DIRECTLY answer the question I asked him, okay?
(Perhaps you should also read the 2nd post on page 9 of this thread. At least then you could be discussing this matter from a position of knowledge.)
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2013,19:42) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 17 2013,14:35) Your argument was (in essence): since “AB” is used in Isaiah 9:6
this fact precludes “God the Father” because he is “ABBA” instead.
Not so.
I was asking a question, not making a statement.
Ed, this is the second time I've posted this for you. It is from the 2nd post on page 10:Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,21:16)
Okay, I don't know if God the Father is ever called Ab.And is there a real difference between Abba and Ab?
Hi Mike,
The Everlasting ruler is YHVH. (Psalm 29:10)
“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son
also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.” (1Corinthians 15:28)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike ……> i also believe Jesus will be a ruler of somekind for ever and it well could be over the house of Jacob, and of course he shall be forever honored and respected. But his greatness to me is, he is my Brother over the house hold of “OUR” God the Father. Also as ED J brought out Jesus does turn over all power and authority of the Kingdom to God the Father, and he himself also like us all will become subject to HIm forever. As far as to what capacity that will be, only the future will tell us that , but i do believe it will be a very high position for ever also. You have to remember also there are a lot more people then just the House of Jacob in this world and in the worlds to come .
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,07:26) Luke 1:33
and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2013,19:50) Hi Mike, The Everlasting ruler is YHVH. (Psalm 29:10)
Ed, are you claiming that Jesus WON'T reign forever, like the above scripture says? YES or NO please.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,09:26) Mike ……> i also believe Jesus will be a ruler of somekind for ever………
Good Gene, because that belief is scriptural.Now, do you also believe the other scriptures I posted, where it is clear that leaders are called “fathers”? Here, I'll bump the info for you:
This is from NETNotes:
[Everlasting father] must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.Here are the two scriptures they listed:
Isaiah 22:21 AKJV
And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.Job 29:16 AKJV
I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.I will also offer a couple of my own, that you can add to the NETNotes examples:
2 Kings 2:12
Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more.2 Kings 5:13
Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it?2 Kings 6:21
When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, “Shall I kill them, my father?2 Kings 13:14
Now Elisha was suffering from the illness from which he died. Jehoash king of Israel went down to see him and wept over him. “My father! My father!” he cried. “The chariots and horsemen of Israel!”So Gene, are you able to see how easily Jesus can be called “everlasting father” in Biblical terminology? YES or NO please.
Mike………Hay by now i believe you people can make anything say anything in scriptures and mean anything you want them to never mind if it is true or not. Jesus is not (THE) Ecerlasting FATHER of anyone one< just like He is not a GOD of anyone. This Iniquity is procicated by all Preexitence and Trinitarians , But we will see what Jesus has to say about it on the day when he returns and destorys those false Images of Him as Being a God or a Preexistent Being, by his very own words as shown in 2 Ths 2. Paul was right, this "LIE", which is a false teaching would continue untill Jesus returns it appears and abolishes it. So it is not going to go away Mike so you have nothing to worry about , that is until Our Lord Jesus Christ returns at least. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Gene,
I've posted scriptural information in that last post. Then I posted the scriptures that prove the information is accurate. Then I asked you a point-blank question.
But instead of a YES or NO answer, I got a bunch of unrelated mumbo-jumbo.
Please answer the question I asked. Here, let me guide you to the truthful answer:
Isaiah 22
20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.”Gene, do you believe Eliakim will be the LITERAL “father” to those who live in Jerusalem? YES or NO?
(The following should help you come to the correct answer:
NET Bible
He will become a protector of 2 the residents of Jerusalem and of the people of Judah.Footnote 2 says:
Heb “a father to.” The Hebrew term אָב (’av, “father”) is here used metaphorically of one who protects and supports those under his care and authority, like a father does his family.Message Bible
He'll be a father-leader to Jerusalem and the government of Judah.)Mike………the word Father can be used in a relative sense to a topic, Like the fathers of our nation, our the term our forefathers, i know that, But as far as a True Father goes we have only two how can clam that one is our HEAVENLY FATHER, (the Father of all Sprits) and the Other is our Earthly Father, who Fathered our Flesh. I know of no other “TRUE” in every sense of the word can be classified as a FATHER.If a person acts as a FATHER to anyone that Person can say He is as a Father to me , and in that sense only could, it be applied. But to say that it is Literially is true, is false Because the usage of the term (father) is not complete in the aplication of the word. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:38) Mike………the word Father can be used in a relative sense to a topic, Like the fathers of our nation, our the term our forefathers, i know that……….
Very good, Gene.Then there is no logical or scriptural reason that Jesus can't “relatively” be called “everlasting father”, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,13:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:38) Mike………the word Father can be used in a relative sense to a topic, Like the fathers of our nation, our the term our forefathers, i know that……….
Very good, Gene.Then there is no logical or scriptural reason that Jesus can't “relatively” be called “everlasting father”, right?
Mike……..Wrong again, Jesus is a MAN, the Father is a Spirit , the Father was “IN” him He was Not the Father that was “IN” him. Trying to make them one and the same if a false teachings Mike. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,04:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,13:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:38) Mike………the word Father can be used in a relative sense to a topic, Like the fathers of our nation, our the term our forefathers, i know that……….
Very good, Gene.Then there is no logical or scriptural reason that Jesus can't “relatively” be called “everlasting father”, right?
Mike……..Wrong again, Jesus is a MAN, the Father is a Spirit , the Father was “IN” him He was Not the Father that was “IN” him. Trying to make them one and the same if a false teachings Mike. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Hi Gene,That's not what he's doing. Instead he is attempting to juggle
Scripture around, so that it fits INTO HIS UNDERSTANDING. Here
are a few other Scriptures that he attempts to do the same thing to:Mike claims there are other gods:
“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)“I [The LORD JEHOVAH], and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:” (Isaiah 45:5)He also seems to be claiming that JEHOVAH had help Creating the heavens and the Earth:
“I [The LORD JEHOVAH] that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:” (Isa 44:24)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 08 2013,12:09) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 09 2013,04:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,13:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 28 2013,17:38) Mike………the word Father can be used in a relative sense to a topic, Like the fathers of our nation, our the term our forefathers, i know that……….
Very good, Gene.Then there is no logical or scriptural reason that Jesus can't “relatively” be called “everlasting father”, right?
Mike……..Wrong again, Jesus is a MAN, the Father is a Spirit , the Father was “IN” him He was Not the Father that was “IN” him. Trying to make them one and the same if a false teachings Mike.
Hi Gene,That's not what he's doing. Instead he is attempting to juggle
Scripture around, so that it fits INTO HIS UNDERSTANDING.
Now just wait a minute here. First of all, it was GENE who said the first words in the quote box above. How can he understand that the “fathers of our nation” are not THE FATHER GOD, but if the word “father” is used of Jesus in a similar sense, it has to mean Jesus IS the Father God?
Gene, can you hear me? Am I coming through loud and clear? I have NEVER claimed that Jesus is the Father God, and I am NOT doing that now.
Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth, Gene?
Now, BOTH of you listen very carefully:
Have I shown you at least FIVE scriptures where the word “father” was used in a metaphorical sense, meaning “protector”? YES.
Is there ANY scriptural reason to think Jesus is NOT our “everlasting protector”? NO.
So the words “everlasting father”, in Is 9:6, DO refer to Jesus (you'd have to be a moron to think that passage in Isaiah was about anybody other than Jesus). But those words are NOT calling Jesus “THE Father God”. Instead, Isaiah is using “father” metaphorically, as it was used of Eliakim, Elisha, Elijah, and Job.
Are you both able to understand those clear words? Are you both able to read the information from NETNotes, which says the same exact thing? Are you both able to read the actual SCRIPTURES I posted that show clear examples of what I and NETNotes are saying?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,12:27) Are you both able to read the information from NETNotes, which says the same exact thing?
Are you both able to read the actual SCRIPTURES I posted that show clear examples of what I and NETNotes are saying?
Hi Mike,I don't read bible commentaries,
perhaps that is what is screwing you up?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike……I totally understand Metaphoric usage in scriptures, but when you try to make them Literal is where the trouble comes. If you say Jesus is “CALLED”, the Mighty God, or Everlasting Father , with the understanding that the Spirit of the Living God is “IN” Him and that those names apply in a metaphoric sense I understand that but many times you do not say Metaphorical speaking but say it in a literal sense, there in lies the problem . You as we full well know Jesus the Man is not the Everlasting Father or the Mighty GOD either even if he is called that because of the Presence of God “IN”Him that does not make him the God that is “IN” him. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 09 2013,01:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,12:27) Are you both able to read the information from NETNotes, which says the same exact thing?
Are you both able to read the actual SCRIPTURES I posted that show clear examples of what I and NETNotes are saying?
Hi Mike,I don't read bible commentaries,
perhaps that is what is screwing you up?
Can you refute the point they and I have made, Ed?Can you refute the actual scriptures that metaphorically call someone who is a “protector” a “father”?
Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor………….Gene, was Job LITERALLY a father to these poor people he mentioned? YES or NO?
Was he saying he was the Father God? YES or NO?
Ed, was Job LITERALLY a father to these poor people he mentioned? YES or NO?
Was he saying he was the Father God? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:02) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 09 2013,01:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,12:27) Are you both able to read the information from NETNotes, which says the same exact thing?
Are you both able to read the actual SCRIPTURES I posted that show clear examples of what I and NETNotes are saying?
Hi Mike,I don't read bible commentaries,
perhaps that is what is screwing you up?
Can you refute the point they and I have made, Ed?Can you refute the actual scriptures that metaphorically call someone who is a “protector” a “father”?
Hi Mike,Give us two or three biblical examples of your premise
that Jesus is the eternal father and we will go from there.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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