ISM Scale

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,05:27)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,09:42)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,02:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2013,04:30)

Quote (942767 @ May 11 2013,16:55)

Hi Mike:

As to whether or not the Jews thought the Jesus was claiming to be “God Almighty”

We have the following scriptures:

Quote

Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Quote

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

And so, no, based on these scriptures, they did not think that he was claiming to be “God Almighty”, but that “he was claiming equal authority to God”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Okay, so look closely at those verses you quoted. Jesus repeatedly claimed to be the SON OF God Almighty, right?

And it was this claim that he was God's literal SON that caused these Jews to think he was “making himself equal with God”. So what does that mean?

Imagine a Canaanite going around claiming that he was a Jew. The Pharisees could tell him, We are going to stone you because you, a mere Canaanite, are making yourself equal with Abraham.

See? They wouldn't be saying that this Canaanite was claiming to LITERALLY be Abraham himself. Instead, they would be saying that he was “putting himself on a level playing field with Abraham himself”.

Get it? The words “making yourself equal with Abraham” mean “putting yourself up high LIKE our father Abraham”.

So the claim was never that any of the Jews thought Jesus was LITERALLY equal to the Most High God who created the heavens and the earth. Instead, they were appalled that he would claim God as his LITERAL father, placing himself in an extremely high position.

Likewise, since the Jews never thought Jesus was making himself out to be God Almighty Himself, John 10:33 is better translated as, “you, a mere man, are making yourself out to be A god”. They didn't think Jesus was making himself out to be God Almighty Himself, but the LITERAL son OF God Almighty. The Son OF God Almighty would not BE “God”, but “a god”.

So your summary statement at the bottom of the quote box above is very close to the truth of the matter, Marty. The Jews NEVER thought Jesus was claiming to be God Almighty Himself. Instead, they knew he was claiming to have God as his LITERAL Father, thereby placing himself with a vast amount of prestige and authority. Not EXACTLY EQUAL with the authority God Himself has – but pretty darn close.

The bottom line is the Jehovah calls Jesus “god” in Heb 1:8. So if Jehovah is not calling him “THE god” (“God” -with a capped “G”), then He MUST BE calling him “A god”.

Therefore, you can see that Jesus IS called a god in scripture. (Not just once, but about 6 times.) And that is all I wanted you to realize. I want you to accept that Jesus IS a god who is NOT the Most High God. It is what the scriptures teach, and it's time some of you accept that teaching.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

This is the teaching that I accept:

Quote

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Quote

1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Quote

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

MARTY

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

IS THIS NOT TRUE

Hi Pierre:

That is what the Word of God states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

And so, He did not call him “a God” did he? He came in the “name of the Father” or that is in the authority of the Father, and he has been given all power over heaven and earth, and no man can come to the Father but through him, but nevertheless, he has come to reconcile us to the Father, and there is no God, but one. He said:

Quote

Jhn 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Quote

it seems you see more than I can see ;Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.kjv

BUT TO THE SON HE(GOD) SAITH;THIS; THY(THE SON) THRONE O GOD (THE SON)IS FOR EVER AND EVER ,A SCEPTRE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTRE OF THY (THE SON) KINGDOM

IS THIS NOT WHAT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ? DOES NOT GOD THE FATHER WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SON AS PAUL QUOTED

May 13, 2013 at 2:06 am#344321

Participant

Hi Pierre:

You ask:

Quote

IS THIS NOT WHAT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ? DOES NOT GOD THE FATHER WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SON AS PAUL QUOTED

He is not talking about the Son. He is talking “to the Son”. And so, what is your point?

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 13, 2013 at 2:17 am#344324

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:06)

Hi Pierre:

You ask:

Quote

IS THIS NOT WHAT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ? DOES NOT GOD THE FATHER WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SON AS PAUL QUOTED

He is not talking about the Son. He is talking “to the Son”. And so, what is your point?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

but show me in the scripture then how it would make a difference ;

are you saying that what I have shown in the verse is false

May 13, 2013 at 2:45 am#344331

Participant

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 13, 2013 at 3:04 am#344333

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

May 13, 2013 at 3:24 am#344335

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 13, 2013 at 6:29 am#344344

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

Strong'sTransliterationGreekEnglishMorphology
4314 [e]prosπρὸςuntoPrep
1161 [e]deδὲhoweverConj
3588 [e]tonτὸνtheArt-AMS
5207 [e]huionυἱόνSon,N-AMS
3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS
2362 [e]thronosθρόνοςthroneN-NMS
4771 [e]souσουof you,PPro-G2S
3588 [e]hoὁOArt-NMS
2316 [e]theosθεὸςGod,N-NMS
1519 [e]eisεἰς[is] toPrep
3588 [e]tonτὸνtheArt-AMS
165 [e]aiōnaαἰῶναageN-AMS
3588 [e]touτοῦof theArt-GMS
165 [e]aiōnosαἰῶνοςage,N-GMS
2532 [e]kaiκαὶandConj
3588 [e]hēἡtheArt-NFS
4464 [e]rhabdosῥάβδοςsceptreN-NFS
3588 [e]tēsτῆςofArt-GFS
2118 [e]euthytētosεὐθύτητοςrighteousness [is],N-GFS
4464 [e]rhabdosῥάβδοςthe sceptreN-NFS
3588 [e]tēsτῆςof theArt-GFS
932 [e]basileiasβασιλείαςkingdomN-GFS
4771 [e]souσου*of you.Ppro-G2S

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

May 13, 2013 at 7:04 am#344346

Participant

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

Abe

Your comment does not make sens,, bad translation

May 13, 2013 at 7:09 am#344347

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:04)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

Abe

Your comment does not make sens,, bad translation

Hi T,

Go to Biblios, it is right there.

Peace..

May 13, 2013 at 7:36 am#344348

Participant

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,13:09)

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:04)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

Abe

Your comment does not make sens,, bad translation

Hi T,

Go to Biblios, it is right there.

Peace..

Abe

I do not use biblos ,I use net bible ,and KJV, also NIV,1984

May 13, 2013 at 8:24 am#344349

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:36)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,13:09)

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:04)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

Abe

Your comment does not make sens,, bad translation

Hi T,

Go to Biblios, it is right there.

Peace..

Abe

I do not use biblos ,I use net bible ,and KJV, also NIV,1984

Hi T,

1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν·

ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα |τοῦ

αἰῶνος|,

καὶ ἡ ράβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ράβδος τῆς

βασιλείας |σου|.

the throne of you the God

The God fearing Trinitarians changed the word. It is the same word as the word before throne!

o means the.

Peace brother..

May 14, 2013 at 2:13 am#344391

Participant

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,14:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:36)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,13:09)

Quote (terraricca @ May 12 2013,23:04)

Quote (abe @ May 13 2013,12:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

True. God speaking to His Son, says to him, “thy throne, O God is the septre of thy kingdom”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

However unto the Son the throne of you THE God into the age of the age.

O means the. Same word used before Throne

3588 [e]HOὉtheArt-NMS

Peace brother..

Abe

Your comment does not make sens,, bad translation

Hi T,

Go to Biblios, it is right there.

Peace..

Abe

I do not use biblos ,I use net bible ,and KJV, also NIV,1984

Hi T,

1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν·

ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα |τοῦ

αἰῶνος|,

καὶ ἡ ράβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ράβδος τῆς

βασιλείας |σου|.

the throne of you the God

The God fearing Trinitarians changed the word. It is the same word as the word before throne!

o means the.

Peace brother..

ABE

NET ©
but of 1 the Son he says, 2 “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, 3 and a righteous scepter 4 is the scepter of your kingdom.
NIV ©
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom.
NASB ©
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NLT ©
But to his Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.
MSG ©
But he says to the Son, You're God, and on the throne for good; your rule makes everything right.
BBE ©
But of the Son he says, Your seat of power, O God, is for ever and ever; and the rod of your kingdom is a rod of righteousness.
NRSV ©
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NKJV ©
But to the Son He says : “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
KJV
But
unto
the Son
[he saith], Thy
throne
_, O God
_, [is] for
ever
and ever
_: a sceptre
of righteousness
[is] the sceptre
of thy
kingdom
_. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness}
NASB ©
But of the Son
He says, “YOUR THRONE
, O GOD
, IS FOREVER
AND EVER
, AND THE RIGHTEOUS
SCEPTER
IS THE SCEPTER
OF HIS KINGDOM
.
GREEK
prov

PREPde

CONJton

T-ASMuion

N-ASMo

T-NSMyronov

N-NSMsou

P-2GSo

T-NSMyeov

N-NSMeiv

PREPton

T-ASMaiwna

N-ASM [tou

T-GSM aiwnov]

N-GSMkai

CONJh

T-NSFrabdov

N-NSFthv

T-GSFeuyuthtov

N-GSFrabdov

N-NSFthv

T-GSFbasileiav

N-GSFauto
u

P-GSM
NET © [draft] ITL
but
of the Son
he says, “Your
throne
, O God
, is forever
and ever
, and
a righteous
scepter
is the scepter
of your kingdom
.
NET ©
but of 1 the Son he says, 2 “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, 3 and a righteous scepter 4 is the scepter of your kingdom.
NET © Notes
1 tn Or “to.”
2 tn The verb “he says” (λέγει, legei) is implied from the λέγει of v. 7.
3 tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (qeos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ.
4 tn Grk “the righteous scepter,” but used generically.

May 14, 2013 at 2:21 am#344392

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:15)

Did the fact that Jesus is the Son and God is his God change….. ?

Nope. Jesus is still the son of the MOST HIGH God, Marty. But tell me, is it even possible for Jehovah to be the MOST HIGH God if there exist no “less high” gods? Is it possible for Him to be the “God OF gods” if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God OF?

Of course the answer to both is an unequivocal “NO”.

The problem that you and most people in the 21st century have is that you define “god” as “THE being who created all things”. That is NOT the definition of “god”. It is NOT the definition of “el”, “elohim”, or “theos” either. The TRUE definition of those words is “mighty one”, or “mighty ruler”.

Now, is Satan a mighty ruler? Of course he is. That is why HE is called a god in scripture – not only by Paul, but by Jehovah Himself. And he is never called a “false god”, or a “so-called god”. He is simply called a god.

How about Jesus? Is Jesus a mighty ruler? Hmmmm………… Well, if Jesus has been exalted even over Satan, and has been given all authority in heaven and earth, and all knees will bow to him, and Satan IS a god…………… then why would you think that Jesus ISN'T a god? He is mightier than Satan, and Satan is a god. He is mightier than angels, and angels are called gods in scripture. He is mightier than human beings, and they are called gods in scripture.

So here we sit with Isaiah 9:6 that you quoted, and Hebrews 1:8-9 that you quoted. And because you PERSONALLY don't WANT Jesus to be called a god, you will play word games with these scriptures.

Take your thoughts on Is 9:6………

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:15)

“his name shall be called”? Is he “the Mighty God”? Or is his name still called Jesus?

This is simply denial, Marty. The phrase “his name shall be called” is very popular in the Hebrew scriptures. When God told Abram “his name shall be called Abraham”, do I hear you saying, Well Mike, his name is called that, but he really isn't that? Of course not. But you'll do this stuff in the case of Is 9:6 – simply because you don't WANT Jesus to be called a god.

Is that REALLY the way you think you'll come to the truth of the scriptures, Marty? By twisting the scriptural words that don't agree with you?

It's the same with Hebrews 1:8-9. It clearly has the Most High God telling a DIFFERENT god that his throne will last forever. But you don't WANT that to be the case – and so you pretend like it's saying something else.

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2013,19:15)

Maybe this will help you to understand:

To Moses God states:

Exd 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, [even] he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

But the Hebrew says, he will be your mouth, and you will be his god.

The words “instead of”, “like”, and “as” are added in most translations because the translators are just like you, Marty. They think they must protect the Bible from itself. They don't WANT Moses to have been called a god, and so they ADD words to the text to make sure nobody thinks he was called a god. (Just like they add “false” and “so-called” to the words “elohim” and “theos”……. because they don't WANT anyone but Jehovah to be called “god” in scripture.)

But Marty, you are only fooling yourself. The only reason the Trinitarians started this practice is because they know Jesus IS called a god in scripture. So they think if they can TRICK us into believing there is LITERALLY only ONE god in existence, then they can trick us into believing Jesus must BE that ONE LITERAL god.

You have partially fallen for their tricks. I'm here to tell you that you need to take a closer look at these things.

peace,
mike

May 14, 2013 at 2:29 am#344393

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,20:13)

NET ©
but of 1 the Son he says, 2 “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, 3 and a righteous scepter 4 is the scepter of your kingdom.

I've explained this to Abe before, Pierre.

He is forgetting the implied “he says”. It comes from the context of verse 7. I.e.: To the angels He says…….., but to the Son, [HE SAYS], “Your throne, O god, is forever and ever…….”

It is truly the Most High God saying the following words TO His Son: “Your throne, O god, is forever and ever”

People will only see what they WANT to see, Pierre.

May 15, 2013 at 3:05 am#344449

Participant

Hi All:

This is the definition that Strong's Concordance gives:

Quote

Number 2316
Transliteration:
theos {theh'-os}
Word Origin:
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
TDNT:
3:65,322
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward 4214 2, misc 5

Total: 1343
Definition:
1.a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2.the Godhead, trinity
A.God the Father, the first person in the trinity
B.Christ, the second person of the trinity
C.Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3.spoken of the only and true God
A.refers to the things of God
B.his counsels, interests, things due to him
4.whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
A.God's representative or viceregent
a.of magistrates and judges
TDNT – Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT – Theological Word Book of the Old Testament

And to be consistent with the rest of the scriptures, it would seem to me that the definition that most fits is definition 4:

Quote

4.whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
A.God's representative or viceregent
a.of magistrates and judges

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 15, 2013 at 3:28 am#344452

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,14:04)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,08:45)

Hi Pierre:

I did not say that the scripture was false. This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And so, God was talking to the Son, not about the Son, and so, what is your point? If you are trying to correct something I said about this, tell me where you disagree.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Christ the son is called god by his God and father ;that is what those scriptures are saying

Hi Pierre:

The point that I am trying to make is that God was speaking to the Son calling him “God” or “god” just as he called the judges “to whom the Word of God came” “gods”, but to us, God revealed by His Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, He did not tell us that he is “God” or that “he is a god”.

This the revelation to humanity relative to Jesus:

Quote

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 15, 2013 at 4:30 pm#344483

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2013,12:15)

Hi Mike:

God was speaking to His Son in Hebrews 1 when he said:

Quote

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Did the fact that Jesus is the Son and God is his God change or did God exalt him to rule at his right hand as the head of the church as His representative?

And did his name change from Jesus to something else or is he still Jesus. He has been exalted:

Quote

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And so, now, Mike does the fact that he has been exalted to his position as Lord and Christ make him God or is he still the Son of God?

If God called Jesus the “Lion of the tribe of Judah”, is he therefore, “a lion”? or is there some other reason that he calls him that? In Isaiah 9:

Quote

sa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

“his name shall be called”? Is he “the Mighty God”? Or is his name still called Jesus?

He was and is “in the form of God” as God's representative, but that does not change the fact that there is still “One God”. He is ruling by God's Word. The Word of God did not originate with him.

Maybe this will help you to understand:

To Moses God states:

Quote

Exd 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him(Aaron), and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.

Exd 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, [even] he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty………….Very good post brother. Because God was the mouth of Moses in no way made him a God, the same applies to Jesus, nor did it make Moses the word of God either. Just as Jesus the man is not the word of God, even if God spoke through him, nor would it make anyone else a God if God were to speak through them either. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

May 15, 2013 at 5:30 pm#344491

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2013,18:29)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,20:13)

NET ©
but of 1 the Son he says, 2 “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, 3 and a righteous scepter 4 is the scepter of your kingdom.

I've explained this to Abe before, Pierre.

It is truly the Most High God saying the following words TO His Son: “Your throne, O god, is forever and ever”

People will only see what they WANT to see, Pierre.

Hi Mike,

unto
8 Prep
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
however
Conj
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
the
Art-AMS
5207 [e]
huion
υἱόν ,
Son
N-AMS
3588 [e]
HO
Ὁ
the * The *
Art-NMS
2362 [e]
thronos
θρόνος
throne * Throne *
N-NMS
4771 [e]
sou
σου ,
of you * Of You *
PPro-G2S
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
O * THE *
Art-NMS
2316 [e]
theos
θεὸς ,
God * God *
N-NMS
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
[is] to
Prep
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
the
Art-AMS
165 [e]
aiōna
αἰῶνα
age
N-AMS
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
of the
Art-GMS
165 [e]
aiōnos
αἰῶνος ,
age
N-GMS
2532 [

The Throne of you the God.

Man put ” O ” in the verse. Get It?

Peace brother..

May 15, 2013 at 11:59 pm#344528

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ May 14 2013,21:05)

A.God's representative or viceregent
a.of magistrates and judges

Okay, now let's see what “judge” meant in the Hebrew culture:

Judges 2:16 NET
The Lord raised up leaders 1 who delivered them from these robbers.

Footnote #1 says:
Or more traditionally, “judges” (also in vv. 17, 18 [3x], 19). Since these figures carried out more than a judicial function, also serving as rulers and (in several instances) as military commanders, the translation uses the term “leaders.”

You can tell from the scriptures that the traditional “judges” of Israel were “mighty rulers” of Israel. And since the words “el”, “elohim”, and “theos” actually MEAN “mighty ruler”, you can see how “judges” were sometimes called “gods” in scripture.

Satan is also a “mighty ruler”, and therefore called a god in scripture.

So the only question you have to ask yourself is this: Is my Lord Jesus Christ, the second most powerful being in existence, who will rule over heaven and earth with an iron scepter, a “mighty ruler” or not?

If he is, then he is rightly called a god – using Biblical terminology. It doesn't make him the Most High God, but a god (mighty ruler) nonetheless.

May 16, 2013 at 12:22 am#344532