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Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2013,22:50) But these idols and demons stand in the place of God and are false gods on the sense of Exodus 20:3:
“You shall have no other gods before me.”
Okay. So we acknowledge that these demons are scripturally OTHER gods. (Idols aren't “other gods”, for they are “no gods at all”.)And we acknowledge that we, as followers of Jehovah, shouldn't allow any of these OTHER gods to come before Him.
Now, which scripture tells us that these OTHER gods are “false gods”?
Interesting! Two Henotheist going at each other over their belief in the existence of more than one God, yet they both claim to hold to the scriptures that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD!
WJ
Mike and WJ…….Jesus told us there are no other “TRUE” GOD'S, This is all you need to understand it, Take each word Jesus said and think about it. FOR “THOU” ARE the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD Now if Jesus said
“THOU”………….that means someone other then himslef RIGHT?
“ARE”……………That means EXISTING as, right?
“THE” ………….A definite article Right? it is all inclusive in meaning.
“ONLY”…………means NO OTHER, RIGHT?
“TRUE” GOD………… Genuine or REAL GOD, Right
Now in that Jesus said “THOU” which means someone else, it excludes HIM, and when he said ONLY that Obviously excludes all others as being “TRUE” GODS , so what are these other so-called Gods if they are not “True” God's , they are “FALSE” or “UNTRUE” Gods, Right?
It is just that simple, that simple statement by Jesus says it all, trying to make it say something else, or grabbing straws to make a case around those simple words is futile.
“There is only “ONE GOD” and ONE mediator between God and man “THE MAN” Jesus Christ” No “MYSTERY Religion needed or carnal human imaginary reasonings to complicate a simple truth clearly written in scriptures, it is just that simple. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 04 2013,10:20) Now in that Jesus said “THOU” which means someone else, it excludes HIM, and when he said ONLY that Obviously excludes all others as being “TRUE” GODS , so what are these other so-called Gods if they are not “True” God's , they are “FALSE” or “UNTRUE” Gods, Right?
Gene's translation of Hebrews 1:8……But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O False and Untrue God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”So your Lord and King Jesus Christ is the “false” and “untrue” god mentioned in that verse, Gene?
How sad for you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2013,03:04) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 04 2013,10:20) Now in that Jesus said “THOU” which means someone else, it excludes HIM, and when he said ONLY that Obviously excludes all others as being “TRUE” GODS , so what are these other so-called Gods if they are not “True” God's , they are “FALSE” or “UNTRUE” Gods, Right?
Gene's translation of Hebrews 1:8……But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O False and Untrue God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”So your Lord and King Jesus Christ is the “false” and “untrue” god mentioned in that verse, Gene?
How sad for you.
Or, Thy throne O God-like one, having been made in my image, being the “express image of my person and having been been exalted to be in the form of God as my representative to humanity as head of the church…He said that there is but “one true God” and he also stated that he is not god, and that he is our brother. Do you believe him?
Love in Christ,
MartySo Marty,
What you're saying is that you have to ALTER the words “elohim” and “theos”, which both clearly mean “god”, and pretend that Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 say “godlike one”?
The words, both in the Hebrew psalm and the Greek quotation of it, mean “god”. And it is only your insistence on putting your own personal preferences ABOVE the scriptures themselves that have you going around ALTERING clear scriptural teachings.
So, try to read it as “god”, like it was actually written BOTH TIMES. And once you've confined yourself to using the word that was actually written in the scripture, please explain to me how Jesus wasn't called a god in Heb 1:8.
(And if you DON'T want to use the words that were actually written, then please don't bother interrupting the discussion any further with ALTERATIONS.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2013,11:13) So Marty, What you're saying is that you have to ALTER the words “elohim” and “theos”, which both clearly mean “god”, and pretend that Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 say “godlike one”?
The words, both in the Hebrew psalm and the Greek quotation of it, mean “god”. And it is only your insistence on putting your own personal preferences ABOVE the scriptures themselves that have you going around ALTERING clear scriptural teachings.
So, try to read it as “god”, like it was actually written BOTH TIMES. And once you've confined yourself to using the word that was actually written in the scripture, please explain to me how Jesus wasn't called a god in Heb 1:8.
(And if you DON'T want to use the words that were actually written, then please don't bother interrupting the discussion any further with ALTERATIONS.)
No, God said to the Son, thy throne O God… He did not call him “a god”.In John 14 Jesus shows us that we have seen the Father through the works that the Father did through him, and in Hebrews 1 the scriptures tell us that Jesus is “the express image of his person”, and so, he is god in the sense that we have seen God's character manifest through his life, but to say that he is “a god” would be inconsistent with the scriptures that state that “there is Only One God” for him, Jesus, and for us as born again Christians.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……….You have it right, Mike is the one not accepting scriptures, and Here is another one he ignore, but unto US (true believers) there is “ONLY ONE” GOD and “ONE” MEDIATOR between GOD and Man , “THE MAN” Jesus Christ. And another one he changes to meet his dogmas, For “THOU” art the “ONLY” TRUE “GOD Not to mention all the scriptures where God himself said He looked for another God and found none not even one. And where God also claimed to be the ONLY GOD IN EXISTENCE, not to mention God also said YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME
A major problem here is understanding what the word God means, Mike think it Just mean Power or Might and that some how makes a God, that is completely wrong, the original word in the Pictorial Hebrew Language had “TWO” Symbols connected together that represented the Word for a GOD, One was a OX head< (Mighty or power) and the other was a Sheppard's Staff < (that which you leaned on and trusted in for support and guidance). Mike just tales the part for Mighty one and concludes that is a God, but that does not constitute a God by it self, While the word EL by it self may represent Might or High one, it is no a Word for God by it self. it must be connected with the rest of the Word, to be a God, Mike treats it like this, lets say the word Go would mean the same as just the letter G would be , He is just dealing with part of the Word for a God by saying EL, ONLY, But a God can not be expressed that way, it must contain the expression of A power or might we “TRUST” IN. Both meanings must be applied to the word GOD, and without one part you have no such word for God.
Now anything can be a GOD or Power a person can trust in, as history has clearly shown, even in our lives many things are God to People becasue the Trust in them , like Money for instance, it is the God of some, even carved idols can be a God to a person, but the question are they “ TRUE GODS Yes to the person believing and trusting in them they are, But we Who believe in the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD KNOW they are FALSE GODS, conjured up in the minds of men who have given themselves over to those things. To us and Jesus there is BUT ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD who is the FATHER of us all. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………..gene
Okay, now that we've put all the nonsense and denial of the last couple posts behind us, I would like a DIRECT and HONEST answer to my question:
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O False and Untrue God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”Gene and Marty, does the translation above correctly demonstrate your understanding of Hebrews 1:8?
If not, please explain (WITHOUT using nonsensical diversions like “he could be CALLED a god, but he wasn't REALLY a god”, or ALTERATIONS TO THE SCRIPTURE like “godlike”).
Mike,,,,,,, if you understood the TRUE GOD was “IN” Jesus doing the works , he accomplishes you would have no problem understanding that. The seven spirits of GOD and the seven powers that accompany them are residing in Jesus, establishing the kingdom of God on this earth. Therefore he could say to The son , thy kingdom o God is an everlasting kingdom,
Remember where it says “the LORD (Adonie )said unto my lord ( adoni) sit on my right hand until I (Adonie) make your enemies your foot stool” , This will be accomplished in the Millennial reign of Christ on this earth, it will be GODS seven spirits connected with those seven powers that will be establishing the eternal Kingdom of God on this earth, it is not the man Jesus as a GOD doing it , it is GOD who is in him DOING those works. So God could say to Jesus thy kingdom O God is an everlasting kingdom, because it is the one and only true God bringing it all about, and at the end of his rule Jesus turns it all over to the Father and becomes subject to God the Father as everyone else does also. Mike I believe you have never truly grasped that God the Father was actually “IN” Jesus doing the works have you.
IMOMike while you say we don't answer your scripture quotes, but it is you who have failed to answer ours. I quoted to you direct scripture that proves our point but you as always just ignore them , how meany scriptures do we have to post about there being ONLY “one” true God , why don't you deal with those scriptures we post for a change instead of ignoring them as if they aren't even in the bible. I even broke down what Jesus said WORD for WORD for you and instead of dealing with it you just ignore it. How can we make any head way if you just ignore our scriptures we post?
Peace and love to you and yours Mike”………………………gene
Mike………..Here is some more scriptures you need to answer,
Mal 2:10…..> have we not all one Father? Has not “ONE” God created us
1 Cor 8:4 ….> We know that there is no Idol in the world and that There is “NO” God but “ONE”
John 17:17:3..> You Father are the “Only” one, who is true GOD.
Mark12;29…..> Jesus answered and said “the most important is, listen Israel the Lord our God is the ONLY LORD > and the Legal experts said to him , well said Teacher , you have truthfully said that God is “ONE” and there is “NO OTHER” besides HIM.
Mike why don't you except these scriptures as true and this is not even mentioning all the many scriptures I have mentioned before about the oneness of our God that God himself said about himself and other, so called Gods. Mike a good study for you would be to see what Sir Isaac Newton said about the word God, It might help you better understand . Here is a Site that can be of good help for you i believe, in fact it would be good for all here too who believe ion only one God.
http://www.restorationfellowship.org
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2013,00:10) Mike while you say we don't answer your scripture quotes, but it is you who have failed to answer ours. I quoted to you direct scripture that proves our point but you as always just ignore them , how meany scriptures do we have to post about there being ONLY “one” true God , why don't you deal with those scriptures we post for a change instead of ignoring them as if they aren't even in the bible. I even broke down what Jesus said WORD for WORD for you and instead of dealing with it you just ignore it. How can we make any head way if you just ignore our scriptures we post?
Gene,I realize you are an older man, but the fact that you can't REMEMBER me DIRECTLY addressing your scriptures doesn't mean that I HAVEN'T done it.
I've addressed all of them, more than once.
Now, how about you give me a simple YES or NO to that Hebrews 1:8 translation I listed? Do you believe that we should add the words “false” or “untrue” to Hebrews 1:8, since Jesus is the one called “O God”? YES or NO, Gene?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2013,09:33) Mike………..Here is some more scriptures you need to answer, Mal 2:10…..> have we not all one Father? Has not “ONE” God created us
I'll RE-answer one scripture per post, Gene. Make a note of my answers somewhere, so you don't have to tell me that I didn't answer them later, okay?There is only one God who created all things. None of the other gods created anything.
Next……………
Mike…….I realize you attempt to answer them , just as I have answered yours, but because you attempt to doesn't , mean you answered them properly, so I continue to post them, as you continue to post your version of an answer. I also noticed you picked the easiest scripture that is not completely specific to my point, so I would like you to answer this one, and my age has nothing to do with it Mike.
Please answer this ONE,
1 Cor 8:4………. We know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE” .
And Mike I have never used that scripture before, because you never explained the one I have posted before like where Jesus PLAINLY said FOR THOU (someone other then the person speaking) are THE “ONLY” ( meaning no other exists) TRUE GOD. anyone with any common sense should know that the word “ONLY” means NO OTHER EXISTS, so all others called a God have to be false. LOGIC 101, in the English language RIGHT? .
I even broke down each word for you to commit on, but you simply ignored them. So being you said you have answered them and I am an “OLD MAN” , as you say, then please tell me where you answered them “properly” at, using excuses to divert the truth, does not justify you position at all Mike. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2013,20:11) I also noticed you picked the easiest scripture that is not completely specific to my point,
I answered the first one on the page, Gene. Did you make a note of it so you don't ever have to ask me to explain that one again?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2013,20:11) Please answer this ONE, 1 Cor 8:4………. We know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE” .
I will be happy to………. immediately AFTER I get a DIRECT and HONEST answer to MY first question – that you have so far avoided.
Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says,“Your throne, O FALSE and UNTRUE God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”Is the above translation the way YOU understand Hebrews 1:8, Gene – since Jesus is the one being called “O God”?
Mike………… Jesus is not being called a GOD the GOD who is “IN” him is being called a GOD. Go back and reread the last two posts i made on page 5 , i went into detail answering your question, What you fail to see it is GOD the FATHER who is “IN” the Son is doing the works. and if you understood Thomas came to understand that, when he said “my LORD “AND” my GOD”. Thomas came to understand God the Father was indeed “IN” the Son Jesus, as Jesus said over and over and it was That GOD who was doing the Works, and that includes establishing the Kingdom of God on this earth during the Millennium Period of Jesus' reign.
You seem to never have truly understood God the Father was and is indeed, “IN” Jesus . The seven spirits of GOD with Power (horns) are given to Jesus to execute the Government of God on this earth and make all of Jesus' enemies his foot stool, But because the spirits of God are working in a person does not make that person a GOD, as you think. Scripture says , ” GOD WORKS “IN” US BOTH TO WILL AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE. Now if God does it “IN” me can i rob God and say it is “Me” that does it?, No i can't, the same applies to Jesus, Moses and all the Prophets, also, the Word God is being applied because of the “ONE” GODS PRESENCE and EFFECTS in the Person he is Working through. But again non of that make the Person GOD is working “IN” a God of any kind. You seem to not understand that concept Mike.
Now you have again your answers so now Answer my question if you can.. 1 Cor 8:4 ……> We know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE”.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
No Gene.
I reject your “answer” because it starts off with, “Jesus is not being called a GOD”.
Yet the words say, But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever………
“The Son” is definitely the one being called “O God” by Jehovah Himself in that verse.
So answer the question ACCORDINGLY, and then we can move forward.
Denying that Jesus is the one being called “O God” in that verse is NOT an actual answer to my question, Gene. Instead, it is self-inflicted blindness on your part.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,04:47) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2013,23:02) If I taught that the Word was a god, then I would have to allow for the Word was THE God too.
That is just silly. Does 2 Cor 4:4 force you to allow for Satan being “THE God”? Of course not.Besides, in the Greek language, Jesus is called “the god” in Hebrews 1:8.
I complain that people read John 1:1c as literally saying: “The Word was THE God”. And I complain about it because it is not there. So it is that i apply the same measurement to “the Word was A god”. As that too is not there.I just think the safe bet is to take it qualitatively as that is how many scholars understand it anyway. Saying A god or THE God is not qualitative. In English both (THE & A) single out one as being God.
Would it not be even slightly hypercritical for me to say you cannot use THE, but you can use A. If I allow one, then surely I allow the other too. Yet neither are in the text.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 12 2013,03:14) Jesus is not being called a GOD the GOD who is “IN” him is being called a GOD.
The Word was WITH THE God.Do you know what WITH means. It doesn't mean IN.
T8……..Yes i do know what the word “with” means, so let me ask you a question, Are your words “with” you? or are they not “with” you? You and your words are the same thing T8, God and his words are the same thing also, because his words come from his mind just as yours do. It just that simple, Now if John wanted us to understand that he was meaning Jesus, would he simply not have written Jesus instead of word there?
Well seeing Mike opted out from answering my posted scriptures I will ask you. Please tell us what this means to you T8.
!Cor8:4…..> We know that there is no Idol in world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE”.
Do you agree with this or not T8?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
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