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If the wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire and fire is reserved for the wicked as well as the Heavens and Earth, then you are free to believe they are not talking about the same thing, even if the timing is coincidental.
However, it is written the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire and kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. We choose to believe this or not. I believe it, but I am not sure you do.
Even if there are multiple fires, there is still one that will result in the destruction of ungodly men according to Peter. Do you believe this to be the case or not? If not, then why do you not believe our brother Peter who taught this?
Hi t8,
Of course the earth [and it’s harvest] is destined for destruction under the judgement of God.
Those who are alive in Christ are taken up to be with him in safety.
Then comes the final judgement AND for many the second death
If annihilation existed it would offer hope to those in hell – but tragically, hell is a place without hope.
People who commit suicide usually do so with the false belief that in taking their own life they will end the unbearable situation they are in – only to find that they take it with them into the afterlife…
They had a false hope – and it is this same false hope of annihilation that you hold up to people with your teaching.
Wow, you really are twisted in your teachings as a teacher, DavidL.
Arrogance is different than ignorance.Will the wicked perish? Yes.
Will the wicked be destroyed? Yes.
Will the wicked be thrown into the Second Death? Yes.
Can God destroy both body and soul in Hell? Yes..
Does the spirit of man go back to God who gave it? Yes.
Is it true that only the righteous will inherit life eternal? Yes.
Is it true that only the righteos will partake of God’s living spirit for eternity? Yes.
So the wicked will not have eternal life in Hell fire? No because Hell itself is thrown into the Second Death and because man does not possess by right an eternal soul. God can destroy it and he will do that very thing because God is in the business of saving souls, but not all souls, only the souls of the righteous.
What I have noticed about DavidL is that he likes to use words against us that are associated with cults. Unfortunately for him, I myself and others only use scripture. So he is attacking scripture and he persecutes us for doing so. By what spirit spurs a man to do that? Is that not the behaviour of the Pharisees.
Really good belief, understanding and points.
Bd,
The wages of sin is death. It can’t get much simpler than that.
The Qur’an took an untrue belief and worsened it (yes I know what is in the Qur’an regarding the eternal destination of non believers).
Annihilation is not what the Bible itself teaches when it uses words like perish, destroy, death, second death, hell etc…
What you teach here is again another belief based on human reasoning – that is, interpreting Scripture according to the intellect rather than by the Spirit… a teaching also found among cult groups who deny the trinity…
But if you put all the confusion of Scriptural debate aside for one minute, and think about it – annihilation (ceasing to exist)… if it were possible, would offer a concept of hope to those in a hopeless place – in other words it would contradict the very definition of hell… sadly this is the same kind of false idea that those who take their own lives hope for.. a complete end that never happens.
Hi,
The wages of sin is death-the first death. All have sinned.
Being reborn from above and becoming slaves to righteousness rom 6 can allow us to become sons of God jn 1.12
DavidL,
It is literally impossible to teach that Scripture teaches of either eternal life or eternal torment as the Koine Greek language does not have a word for eternal. Any translator translating Koine Greek wording to eternal must therefore be using some type of reasoning to come to the conclusion that the words mean eternal.
Which translators do you trust to translate as they are carried along by the Spirit of God?
I do not trust any of them.
Kerwin,
YOU SAID SO,
DUE TO THE FACT THAT FOR A REASON THAT ONLY YOU KNOW,
YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF
therefore:
MY POST STANDS
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
I am just telling you to test your own teachings and that is exactly what Scripture teaches you to do. I testify that that your teaching is not clear as you wander away from the subject of the conversation in such a way that it looks like you are attempting to change the conversation. Your response to me is still a diversion from the conversation.
I do not want me to teach you where you wander off as my words are useless if you are too blind to see for yourself.
The post of yours we are addressing says:
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “– therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Where does it say in the above scripture that GOD WILL DESTROY SOULS!
The passage you quoted has nothing to do with the time after Judgement Day. It does mention “eternal life” but it would still be a “red herring” if I were to ask “where does it say in this passage that any human will have eternal life?” which I know it does not say it does not say in that passages even though there are passages that do do say a certain type of humans that will have ages for ages of life. It is just not written this passage from Genesis.
This is so obvious that any reasonable human would see it. Since you did not it is clear you are not a reasonable man, at least as this point goes.
Okay, no one who believes that hell is not real has not answered the questions.
Why does Jesus call it a PLACE
Why does Jesus say in this PLACE their is TORMENT such as Gnashing of teeth
Why does Jesus even tell a story about someone being in a place of TORMENT called HELL
what is Jesus talking about when he says:Mark 9:43-44
43 And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that- never
shall be quenched,
44 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’
Now interesting enough Jesus is quoting scripture here
Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Isaiah uses the word “Carcases” so I looked up if Carcass always means a dead Body in the Bible and it doesn’t. Carcass just means Body, in some verses it uses the term “Dead Carcass” which shows that Carcass just means body.
1 Kings 13:2221st Century King James Version (KJ21)
22 but camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place of which the Lord said to thee, “Eat no bread, and drink no water,” thy carcass shall not come unto the sepulcher of thy fathers.’”
What is absolutely terrifying is that these verses are exactly what Jesus describes in talking about Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was seeing this rich man in torment and he hated seeing it (abhorring)
Secondly Death does not mean non existence in the Bible it usually means separation so the second death seems to be “Final separation” not “extinction” lets see if I can show this point.
Revelation 21:821st Century King James Version (KJ21)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Notice the scripture says they will “have their part” it doesn’t seem to say or suggest they will be burned up or become extinct because how can they have a part in something if they are extinct or annihilated?
Now pay attention and you will clearly see HELL emerge:
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now first the scriptures assure us that these evil doers will have a part in the lake of Fire and then it assures us this place is outside the kingdom but it actually says they are OUTSIDE meaning that they are existing and conscious. This is the same thing Jesus is saying when he talks about Lazarus.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.”Obviously here Jesus is talking about the spiritually dead burying the physically dead but notice the spiritually dead is for all intents and purposes alive but separated from God.
2 Thessalonians 1:921st Century King James Version (KJ21)
9 These
- shall be punished
with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
The destruction is separation otherwise it would have just said Everlasting destruction besides the fact that if it was extinction or Anihilation there would be no reason to use the word Everlasting as destruction in and of itself would have sufficed.
Jesus said it the way he said it because it is THE TRUTH
Bodhitharta,
I believe in Gehenna as well as Sheol. They are two different places, Gehenna is the lake of fire where those thrown in have their souls and bodies destroyed while Sheol is where the souls of the dead go and wait until judgement day. The wicked side is unpleasant while the righteous side is a paradise.
I believe Islam has the same concepts but they seem to have at least some of the same controversies about those concepts.
Hi Bd,
Mark 9:43-44
43 And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire thatnever
shall be quenched,
44 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’
“Hell” is further described by Jesus as the place where both the body and soul will be destroyed. Look:
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.”
Notice your verse says the FIRE is not quenched and the WORM dies not.
It does not say that the PERSON never dies.Compare the worm dies not with Deut 28:26 and Jer 7:33:
“And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away.”
In 2 Sam 21:10, Rizpah prevents the birds from devouring the corpses of her sons (for perhaps several months) by continually scaring them away.
So, Deut and Jer say that “None will frighten away the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth from (consuming) the dead bodies”. Similarly, “the worm dies not”.
The bodies will be consumed, and those listening to Jesus at the time would have been familiar with this.It’s signifying total destruction.
What is absolutely terrifying is that these verses are exactly what Jesus describes in talking about Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was seeing this rich man in torment and he hated seeing it (abhorring)
It’s a parable Bd. Or it could be the holding place before judgment.
What is absolutely terrifying is that these verses are exactly what Jesus describes in talking about Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was seeing this rich man in torment and he hated seeing it (abhorring)
Secondly Death does not mean non existence in the Bible it usually means separation so the second death seems to be “Final separation” not “extinction” lets see if I can show this point.
Revelation 21:821st Century King James Version (KJ21)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Notice the scripture says they will “have their part” it doesn’t seem to say or suggest they will be burned up or become extinct because how can they have a part in something if they are extinct or annihilated?
Ah, Bd, the Greek is not “shall have their part”, the Greek is “the portion of them in the lake”. So, the fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whore mongers, sorcerers and idolaters and all liars: the portion of them is in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Now first the scriptures assure us that these evil doers will have a part in the lake of Fire and then it assures us this place is outside the kingdom but it actually says they are OUTSIDE meaning that they are existing and conscious.
Order: First it says sinners are outside the kingdom (heavenly Jerusalem for the righteous living on earth i.e., now) then comes the second death.
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.”Obviously here Jesus is talking about the spiritually dead burying the physically dead but notice the spiritually dead is for all intents and purposes alive but separated from God.
Yes, and that’s now.
with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
This is when Jesus comes again (in flaming fire.) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord (final and total destruction).
miia,
It’s a parable Bd. Or it could be the holding place before judgment.
It is the holding place as after death since in it you can tell Judgement Day has not occurred and so the World To Come has not happened. If Judgement Day had occurred the rich man would not have a reason to go back to the Land of the Living as his brothers would either be with him or with Lazarus.
Kerwin..
Which translators do you trust to translate as they are carried along by the Spirit of God?
I do not trust any of them.
Do you put your understanding of Biblical Greek up against those who were put in a position of interpreting Scripture..?!
Should I trust what you say over what the Bible says…?!
God’s Word is sure – preserved by the same Spirit that inspired it.!
..but if the words of Scripture cannot be trusted – then what makes your words any more reliable..!!
To all……It is better to enter into the kingdom of GOD “MAINED” (suffering loss of things that maybe closest to us), THEN HOLDING ON TO IT, and cast into the fire (intense judgement) where “THEIR” worm (the evil in them) does not die, and as a result the fire (intense judgement on them) is not quinched (put out or stopped ).
WE ALL Must come to true repentence being willing to sacrifice all evil things connected to us, or that worm (evil) that is working in us all, is still active, and will require more (FIRE) OR intense judgements, bringing greater torments. If we truly repent of the evil and truly obey GOD THE FATHER with our whole hearts, and THE WORM WILL DIE, GOD IS ABLE TO GIVE US POWER TO DESTORY IT.
That parable must be spritually understood to get the true meaning from it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
Miia
If you call what Jesus described the holding place until the Judgement isn’t it still a place of torment?
It seems the issue here was would God allow anyone to be tormented day and night, isn’t that the main issue here?
If you call what Jesus described the holding place until the Judgement isn’t it still a place of torment?
Hi Bd,
We don’t know much about any holding place. I would assume from what i gather in scripture it is the “outer darkness” which Jesus spoke about.It seems the issue here was would God allow anyone to be tormented day and night, isn’t that the main issue here?
It is supposed to be the main issue of this thread: if God would allow anyone to be tormented “forever and ever” more so than “day and night”.
Bd, we can be tormented here day and night. Torment seems like forever, does it not?
And what about the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” which Jesus mentioned. “weeping and gnashing of teeth can signify torment, suffering, anguish, sorrow, loss, and regret. Now these could mean here, now, in this life, or it could be in some temporary holding place which we don’t know much about, but it would not be “being burnt alive without dyeing”, it would be personal. When “the books are opened” – possibly it means our heart and our mind is opened to what we have done or not done, our sins, our refusal to truth, and our refusal of God and the son of God. Make sense? Point is: even weeping and gnashing of teeth, whether in this life or something temporary to come, or at judgment day itself when people are sentanced to the second death, all signify weeping and gnashing of teeth, don’t you think?
See, God doesn’t hold his anger forever, Bd, scripture says that.
God is love, scripture says that too. So how is love described in the bible and how do we see that reflected today (bearing in mind that love will grow cold in these end times). Love is (1st Corinthians 13:4) patient, kind, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered. Love keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with truth. Love protects, love trusts, loves hopes, and loves perseveres. And eventually, all that will remain IS love.
God is not a hypocrite.
One day you will see this Bd. (you will 🙂
t is the holding place as after death since in it you can tell Judgement Day has not occurred and so the World To Come has not happened. If Judgement Day had occurred the rich man would not have a reason to go back to the Land of the Living as his brothers would either be with him or with Lazarus.
Possibly so Kerwin.
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