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Jesus did say that, and it's clarified even further in that it's eternal. As for testing things, Do you think there comes a point where we stop testing as the test has produced a result? I read last week that some things are clear in the bible and usually the ones that aren't don't matter. In our case, it must end with what is written, the other scriptures are helpful, but the clear ones have priority. I am seeing alot lately christians wanting more leading to stuff like the book “Jesus Calling” etc which has ideas that contradict the bible, weird 1 Corinthians 4:6 ►New International Version (©2011)
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
Quote (palal @ June 09 2013,22:53) Jesus did say that, and it's clarified even further in that it's eternal.
Jesus did say that, and it's clarified even further in that it's eternal.Ill write more tomorro, but quickly, time is reltive, swiftly to God may not be to us, (you know 1000yrs as 1day to the LORD) Delivering to satan, we're talking about the context in Thessilonians where the HS put “eternal and destruction together” As to torture, God is sovereign and just so people get their penalty, Why do bad things happen to good people? the reason is there are no good people. We are “monsters of iniquity” as Spurgon coined. We are terrible sinners saved by grace. I think your trying to find a way to have “eternal destruction” not mean what it obviously it says. it does not matter what other scripture says on destruction of heavens and earth, as the context used is quite clear. The HS said it that way to describe the afterlife of the wicked, it's a scary thought. Any way, be blessed and sleep well:)
Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,05:53) Quote (Ed J @ June 08 2013,17:08) Hi Kerwin, The bishops bible used the Latin Vulgate,
The AKJV Bible used “The Majority Texts.”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,The Textus Receptus has some parts that are back-translated from the Latin Vulgate. A 3rd edition did reference the Codex Bezae.
Hi Kerwin,This is not the thread to be having our discussion, so…
…I moved our conversation to where it belongs… (Link)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi David..I saw in your discussions with Alan that you do not believe in an eternal hell, and read here your Scriptural support for this concept. I have always been of the mind that hell is eternal, but am open to learn anything from the Bible that teachers otherwise..
I do recall that the SDA’s (Seventh Day Adventists) also teach this same belief..and for the same reason of being unable to reconcile the idea of a loving God with eternal suffering..
My first thought was to reach for my Vines and look up Perish, which directed me to look up Destroy/Destruction..where I find straight away, “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being.” ..from here I check out another Lexicon reference book which says the same, “The fundamental thought is not annihilation, but ruin, loss..”..
A couple of verses I’ve just looked at you may not find conclusive in any way David, but they seem to have the inference that the second death is eternal for sinners.. Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Well, at least for the devil the second death is eternal..verse 14,15 says that then those whose names were not found written in the book of life were cast into lake of fire..and 21:8 “…and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..” so if it were a matter of complete annihilation, I think I would expect it worded differently than – ‘shall have their part’..
Put it this way, if I were reading the Bible for first time, with no preconceived thought as to the different doctrines…I do think my impression of hell would be of a place of never-ending torment..
Cheers, God Bless – David L.Thanks David. 🙂
My thinking on this is that God created angels to be eternal and intended this for man too. But God in his great mercy took precautions at the right time to stop us from existing forever as sinners. So man could be spared from existing forever and ever (ages and ages) in a sinful state.
Genesis 3:21-24
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Clearly God spared man from living forever. Instead, God made a promise to us and all generations that eternal life is not given to all, but is a free gift of God in Christ Jesus our lord to all who will receive him.
This is why God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell forever. Further we know that Hell is not forever because the Book of Revelation teaches that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Thus it means that the body and soul is destroyed for ever and ever after being cast into Hell.
And does it not say elsewhere that the body will go back to the dust in the ground and the spirit back to God who gave it.
Further if some believers are handed over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that their spirits might be saved, then here we have the exact same word ‘destruction’ in a different subject and can plainly see that this is not an eternal process of being ruined, but very finite.Further, I would say that most confusion on this subject is with the symbolism that is chosen. But there is an amazing amount of clear teaching on this subject in scripture.
Blessings in Jesus name. 🙂
It is good to search the scriptures.
Palel,
May I ask you: where did you originally learn the eternal conscious torment doctrine, if that is what you believe, that is?Let's begin there.
Thanks – I know it will be hard for me to try and see hell in a ‘finite’ sense, but will definitely give some thought to what you have shared..
Blessings..!!We know the truth shall set us free and yet we are somehow conditioned to be scared to question what most take for granted. But I believe that it was that fear that lead to the domination of RCC doctrines and it was bravery that led to the reformation and to those who protested. What these early reformers saw as wrong, even though it was considered correct by most, took courage to challenge, and with the prospect of being burnt at the stake and then to continue in that fire for eternity after death was what the opposition was threatening them with. Indeed it was the bravest of souls that challenged the might of the Roman Catholic Church in those times. But this fight is still happening today, There are still many doctrines that we consider true, but are rooted in this false organisation. (NOTE the Reformation was never meant to end, but to keep going even to this day.)
The more I look into today’s doctrines, the more I see that traditions of men and even doctrine of demons which have crept into mainstream Christianity. Much teaching and even the modern day gospel is unrecognisable to Heaven. Paganism even crept in many centuries ago, going way back to the time of Contantine and few there be that challenge those doctrines. Even further back before Christ, it was a Babylonian belief that we suffered for eternity after we died. And God judged Babylon for her idols and religion. Babylon was part of Sumeria and it is considered by historians to be the first civilisation and the birth place of our modern way of life.
The idea that one day a vast number of people including people we know, even family will be consigned to the everlasting torment of hell is distressing to sensitive Christians who love of God and their fellow man. It is not surprising to see the traditional view of hell as been a stumbling block for believers and a weapon used by skeptics to challenge the credibility of our gospel. Further, it is the reason for many to reject our gospel if indeed that is our gospel.I made this reply to a comment on the . Thought I would also quote it here for its relevance.
https://heavennet.net/writings/is-hell-eternal/We know the truth shall set us free and yet we are somehow conditioned to be scared to question what most take for granted. But I believe that it was that fear that lead to the domination of RCC doctrines and it was bravery that led to the reformation and to those who protested. What these early reformers saw as wrong, even though it was considered correct by most, took courage to challenge, and with the prospect of being burnt at the stake and then to continue in that fire for eternity after death was what the opposition was threatening them with. Indeed it was the bravest of souls that challenged the might of the Roman Catholic Church in those times. But this fight is still happening today, There are still many doctrines that we consider true, but are rooted in this false organisation. (NOTE the Reformation was never meant to end, but to keep going even to this day.)
The more I look into today’s doctrines, the more I see that traditions of men and even doctrine of demons which have crept into mainstream Christianity. Much teaching and even the modern day gospel is unrecognisable to Heaven. Paganism even crept in many centuries ago, going way back to the time of Contantine and few there be that challenge those doctrines. Even further back before Christ, it was a Babylonian belief that we suffered for eternity after we died. And God judged Babylon for her idols and religion. Babylon was part of Sumeria and it is considered by historians to be the first civilisation and the birth place of our modern way of life.
The idea that one day a vast number of people including people we know, even family will be consigned to the everlasting torment of hell is distressing to sensitive Christians who love of God and their fellow man. It is not surprising to see the traditional view of hell as been a stumbling block for believers and a weapon used by skeptics to challenge the credibility of our gospel. Further, it is the reason for many to reject our gospel if indeed that is our gospel.
Well said, I am just a stunned bunny at the moment. 3 years ago I had this thing called “Latter Rain” preached at me. It was quite cool and exciting, I like to read, so I know most of the various endtime scenarios enough to know they all have good and bad points, so the Latter Rain stuff was new to me. Anyway, I thought I would study it, the upshot was I found all this weird stuff such a Dominionism (church takes over world then JC can come back) Joels Army, the Elija generation and on it goes. They have the common thread that it's all based on allegorical interpretation of scripture, essentialy, nothing means what it first says and Hermeneutics is out the window ie context context context. At the end of it all I have found that most of my hereos are infact the flast teachers Peter and Jude warned us about and alot of my theology in actual fact has no biblical foundation! Incredibly painful, it's been like some one dear has died: denial…anger…grief and now, sad acceptance. Most of the so called anointed teachers like William Brannam, Rick Joyner, Bill Johnson etc turn out to be denyiers of Jesus as a man, the trinity etc and the most shocking one: Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross, he needed to become on with satan and be tourtered in hell for 3 days!!! I herard this preached a while back and only 3 of us picked it up!!!!! What shocking is it's not deep stuff, it's simple milk ie, Jesus said to the criminal “today you will be with me in paradise” it's not rocket science!! Anyway, i look forward to your thoughts:)
Palal,
Quote 1
: the state or fact of being destroyed : ruin
2
: the action or process of destroying something
3
: a destroying agencyDo you agree that the word destruction can speak of something that is destroyed?
Note: Source is Merriam-Websters Online Dictionary.
Another consideration is this David.
Jude 7:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire.” It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results. The keywords for context here are “in a similar way”.
Last time i checked, Sodom and Gommarah have not even been disocovered leading some to believe they never existed. Although I did hear about some text that was found that mentioned trade with Gommorah. So given that, it is even more unlikely that there is an eternal fire still consuming those cities. Further, this verse is used as a symbol for us to understand the punishment of eternal fire.Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah–from the LORD out of the heavens.Luke 17:29
But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.Jude 7:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire. It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, but not because of its duration, but because of its permanent results. The keywords for context in Jude 7 are “in a similar way”.
Last time I checked, Sodom and Gommarah have not been discovered leading some to believe they never existed. Of course they existed, and I remember hearing about some archaeological evidence that was found where the city that was was being uncovered had mention of trade with Gommorah, leading some to think the city was Sodom. Not sure what became of that. But that aside, it is even more unlikely that there is an eternal fire still consuming those cities, when we are not even sure where they are. Further, this verse is used as a symbol for us to understand the punishment of eternal fire.
These are all quotes about destruction, in their context that all indicate a start and end to the destruction. Though Jude provides detail about this fire the it burns for eternity “eternal filre” A question we would never think to ask is what kind of destruction is it or how long? I would have thought destruction was destruction and it comes quickly. It is interesting that they suffer the punishment of “Eternal Fire” why is the fire eternal if the wicked are annihilated? That seems confirm that it's “eternal destruction” as the Fire is eternal as well.
it's a horrible thought!Eternal life means to always live.
Eternal death means to always be dead, (not live).
Eternal destruction means to always be destroyed.Why does eternal destruction have to mean not destroyed forever. Isn't that what you are saying palal?
Eternal destruction is eternal punishment because it is permanent, not because it is ongoing and never arriving to the point of destruction. Again, that is believing the opposite of what it is saying. An oxymoron.
You can say it makes no sense, but again, the words show the fire burns for ever and the destruction continues forever. It's crystal clear if you think about it and look at strickly what the words mean individually and what they mean together. The Holy Spirit put them together, I agree that they doeas seem to make no sence from our point, but God used thosed words and He does not make mistakes. It's interesting, this subject has been talked about befor, this Theology trying to avoid this is called Annihilationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism) Eternal destruction is eternal punishment, being destroyed for ever. The problem we have is it does not seem fair or just or even good english
phew – you sure give one plenty to think about..but I guess it WILL take a lot of convincing to persuade me the Bible teaches ‘annihilation’ is the second death..(even the word ‘death’ itself means ‘separation’..) – and are you saying Bible Dictionaries and lexicons are incorrect when they give the definition of ‘Destruction’ as NOT meaning ‘annihilation’ or ‘extinction’…? I know you quoted from Strongs but Strongs does give quite limited definitions of words in general…could you also look up another Bible Dictionary to verify this..?
I would also be interested to know where you first acquired or heard this particular belief.. cause I would be very surprised if it was some understanding you got directly from Scripture yourself, and not from some other teaching source (sorry – but it does sound very Seventh Day Adventist in it’s origin..!!)When you say that the idea of eternal punishment can put people off God and the Gospel, I believe that this is probably the reason certain teachers have tried to explain hell this way (which I do believe is contrary to what the Bible itself teaches)..but this sort of thinking is based purely on ‘human’ reasoning..and is itself why the Gospel has become so distorted..this is really the result of ‘the Fear of Man’ trying not to offend humanity by creating a ‘user-friendly’ approach..
Shalom & Blessings..!!Ha, yeah plenty to chew on.
I have never been to a Seventh Day Adventist Church. The last denomination I fellowshipped at was a Vineyard.
What I believe has been sought out by myself. I have a conviction about something and then read scripture to see if it is so.
I use to believe everything that I was told as a younger believer thinking that more mature believers had it altogether. But in time as I grew, certain doctrines or teachings just didn’t seem right to me. So I let scripture teach me. Like Paul, I didn’t get it from man, but I spent a number of years learning from the scriptures and the Lord. At first some of the conclusions although seemed true, just went against the grain of traditional Christianity so I honestly what I learned away for almost a decade. But God had me take it up again with signs. And if it is written and men say otherwise, then who am I to argue.
Maybe I should remind you that I believe that judgement is eternal for the righteous and the wicked and that the wicked are indeed cast into Hell and it is horrible beyond belief. God even gave me a taste of it. Also, Jesus taught enough on Hell to know that it is certainly true. Hell is not in question. And even that the wicked suffer eternal punishment or eternal destruction is not in question as it is written.
What is in question is the nature of Hell or the nature of what it means to say when it is eternal. The traditional teaching is that it means Hell exists for eternally, when in fact we know that it is cast into the Second Death. It is the consequences that are eternal. Just as life is eternal, so is death and destruction. Death is not life in disguise.
You rightly say that death is separation. But the second death is separation from God and we know that God is the source of all life. Thus separation from the life source is death. How can anything live if it is cut off from life himself? If you cut off a river from water, then it is not a river anymore. And if the spirit goes back to God who gave it, then you would have to assume that the wicked have the spirit inside them for eternity to keep them alive.
But no such teaching is found in scripture. We read that eternal life is only given to the righteous. If the traditional view was correct, it would say that we all have eternal life, but some in the presence of God while others in will live in the fire. i.e., that the wicked too have eternal life.
The Church has gathered many teachings over the last 2000 years and much of it is not recognisable in Heaven. But Jesus is coming back to a Church without spot and blemish. So there is a refining process going on, and we need to let the fire of God refine us.
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