Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 04 2009,11:46)

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 03 2009,17:30)

Thank you for your kindness.

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“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.”
When did this happen and when did they terminate travel?

Seeking

Seeking,
I truly apologize for my sarcasm. I have become frustrated. I showed you from the Bible's own hisrotical account of Christ's Galilean ministry that the word “Gentiles” in our translations is erroneous in Matthew 4. You didn't even acknowledge it but proceeded to argue your case and defend the indefensible. I expected you to pause and say “hmmm…maybe I should rethink things.”

Jesus' Galilean ministry was to the House of Israel,

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And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE teaching in their SYNAGOGUES (Matt. 4:23).

There it is! Jesus went about ALL Galilee teaching in all the Jewish synagogues. Yet we are supposed to believe that His Galilean ministry was about Gentiles. This is because of erroneous translation which say “Gentiles” when it ought to be translated more literally as “nations.” Jesus went all about Galilee teaching the nations of the Israel.

Chapters 5-7 are the Sermon on the Mount which was also delivered to the people of Israel. In 10:5 Jesus told His disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And in 15:24 He said,

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I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Jesus was still doing His Galilean ministry when He said this. And then Peter recounted His Galilean ministry saying that He delivered the word of God to the children of Israel and went about teaching in the land of the Jews (Acts 10:34-39)

I asked you to explain and you just ignored it. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW “GENTILES” CAN BE THE CORRECT TRANSLATION IN MATTHEW 4.

Then you keep explaining away Romans 2 where Paul said that the Gentiles who obey the revelation in nature are justified. Paul said that they “show” that they have the law written in their hearts. Paul was talking about that which was OBSERVABLE. He said that the Gentiles “show” the Jews that the law is written in their hearts. Therefore, the Gentiles were being justified APART from baptism and the mandate to be baptized applied only to the Jew (or proselyte).

Seeking said:

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When did this happen and when did they terminate travel?

Who said they terminated their travel?

thinker

March 4, 2009 at 9:07 am#124042

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2009,13:39)

Hi TT,
You decided
“All men are justified by faith alone today.”

With few miracles around very few must be saved?

To all,
See what I'm saying? Now we're being told that salvation is necessarily connected to miracles. Such nonsense is the result of interpreting Scripture out of its historical context.

thinker

March 4, 2009 at 2:29 pm#124048

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2009,02:04)

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I have become frustrated. I showed you from the Bible's own hisrotical account of Christ's Galilean ministry that the word “Gentiles” in our translations is erroneous in Matthew 4. You didn't even acknowledge it but proceeded to argue your case and defend the indefensible.

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And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE teaching in their SYNAGOGUES (Matt. 4:23).

There it is! Jesus went about ALL Galilee teaching in all the Jewish synagogues.

Thinker,

I do not recall saying that Matthew four read anything about “Gentiles.” If I did, I was wrong. I am posting four versions that I read that agree totally with the rendering you gave of Mt.4:23.

MT 4:23 NIV Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Mat 4:23 ESV And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.

Mat 4:23 YLT And Jesus was going about all Galilee teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the good news of the reign, and healing every disease, and every malady among the people,

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Again, if I said they said 'Gentiles” I was wrong. But I do not recall doing so. That's probably why I did not respond to your first inquiry.

Regarding Romans 2-3, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not see Paul's intention as making your point at all. I have addressed why previously.

Addressing the various missions of Jesus and his disciples, I read as follows:

MT 4:23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Mar 6:8-11 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff–no bread, no bag, no money in their belts– but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics. And he said to them, “Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.”

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

I understand this to be broadening of territory and a lifting of limits. You understand that it still constricts to only Jews or
prostelytes. I also understand that, at some point in time,
this truth became reality –

Mat 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The question is when? I believe it was right after the coming of the Spirit in Acts 2 when, now, they had the power of the Spirit to preach the message of a resurrected Savior. Nothing was lacking. It was the hope of every Jew, Gentile, slave, free, man, woman. It is today!

As the Gospel was unpackaged many changes took place.
Circumcision was eliminated, Paul developed expanding understanding of meat sacrificed to idols and eating of blood.
Men were honored because what they did was unto the Lord.

He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

I fault no one today as their understanding expands. My only
inquiry is, are you doing it unto the Lord? If folks do or do not do something because I persuaded them, it is not of faith for them. It would be sin – But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind

I would have one final question regarding all these interactions. Are we discussing matters of salvation? If I have the Trinity wrong am I void of eternal life? If I were baptized and didn't need to be or not baptized and needed to be, will God withhold eternal life. What of I am pre – post – A
millenial. Does only one of those convictions qualify me for eternal life?

I believe God is bigger than all these variants men have concocted. People are asking still, Mt.10:17 what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Acts 16:30 what must I do to be saved?” I believe the answer lies here –“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved Acts 16:31.

How one unwraps that is the point each must settle for themselves. Perhaps we are helping here. Pehaps we are confusing folks. I know this, God does not author confusion.

Apparently you would agree we must still be traveling with the message as we have been given understanding. One thing is for certain, But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself – Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Let's be about lifting up Jesus!

Blessings,

Seeking

March 4, 2009 at 4:24 pm#124054

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All………Jesus also said He who believes on him that signs would be present. Mar 16:16-18…”He that believes and is Baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) and these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of Law, or by the hearing of Faith.

When the Son of man comes will He find (FAITH) on the earth? (read the Parable of the unjust Judge) and think about it. God will speedily answer those who have true FAITH. He will not put you off as the unjust Judge did.

peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene

March 4, 2009 at 4:45 pm#124057

Participant

Seeking said:

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I do not recall saying that Matthew four read anything about “Gentiles.” If I did, I was wrong. I am posting four versions that I read that agree totally with the rendering you gave of Mt.4:23.

Seeking,
You did not say that “Gentiles” was the correct translation in Matthew 4. I was invoking Matthew 4 because you assumed that the translations correctly use “Gentiles” in Acts 22:21

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Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles

I invoked the erroneous translation in Matthew 4 to get you to question the translation in Acts 22:21. Again, you never even mentioned Matthew 4. You insisted that “Gentiles” is the correct rendering in Acts 22:21. I was trying to show you that if translator bias is present in Matthew 4 then it may also be present in Acts 22:21. I see now that this is a failure to communicate on my part. I should have explicitly stated my reason for invoking Matthew 4.

I want to apologize to you again for my sarcasm. These things happen in debate.

Seeking wrote:

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Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

First, I do NOT believe that the Gospel “still” constricts to Jews or proselytes today. I have never said this. I have said over and over again that the everlasting gospel for all men of all ages is faith alone. Besides, there is no Jewish race today. Jesus prophesied that the Jews would be taken captive in all nations and that their house would become “desolate” (Luke 24). THERE IS NO HOUSE OF ISRAEL TODAY!

Second, I disagree that Acts 1:8 refers to a “lifting of limits” and a “broadening of territory” in reference to the disciples. Jesus spoke indicatively about their witness. He said,

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But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the region.

Jesus was speaking to them about their witness. But today we preach the gospel indiscriminately to all men and the message does NOT contain the mandate to be baptized. The message today is faith alone APART from the works of the law (Rom.3:21).

Seeking said:

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There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The “Greek” was a distinct class of the Jews as I have already shown. Gentiles were not at all a factor in that statement.

Seeking said:

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I would have one final question regarding all these interactions. Are we discussing matters of salvation?….If I were baptized and didn't need to be or not baptized and needed to be, will God withhold eternal life….

But Peter said,

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Repent and …be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

Baptism was a matter of salvation then. A Jew could not be justified without it. If baptism applies today then you should be consistent like Nick. For he has said several times that a man who is not baptized today is not fit to attend the wedding feast. It seems like you are now trying to keep baptism as a requirement without making it a matter of salvation. But the plain fact is that baptism was a matter of salvation then. So if baptism is still in force today it is a matter of salvation.

thinker

March 4, 2009 at 6:03 pm#124067

Participant

Hi TT,
Salvation has always been about faith and God does consider some vessels clean enough in His eyes.
But faith has never been about knowledge alone but obedient actions in response to it.
Many think Jesus is their Lord but he does not know them.

March 4, 2009 at 6:10 pm#124070

Participant

thethinker,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

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Seeking,
You did not say that “Gentiles” was the correct translation in Matthew 4.

Thinker – I am glad to clear that up!

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I invoked the erroneous translation in Matthew 4 to get you to question the translation in Acts 22:21.

I am still unclear about what you are referring to as an “erroneous translation” in Mat. 4:23.

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Again, you never even mentioned Matthew 4.

I didn't then and I don't now because I have no clue what the
“erroneous translation” is in Mt.4:23 that you would like addressed.

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I have asked you to unwrap the “faith alone” gospel. Several have responded to the “Gospel That Saves” thread. Perhaps that would be an appropriate place if not here. I have no idea what limits, if any, you put on faith alone. I have shared on several occassions that I see no conflict with one choosing to be baptized as a conflict with a faith alone response. Others
attend a church, some do not. Some elect to fast, tithe, etc.
as a part of their faith response. You see a conflict, I don't.

Rom 14:5-8 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

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If baptism applies today then you should be consistent like Nick. For he has said several times that a man who is not baptized today is not fit to attend the wedding feast. It seems like you are now trying to keep baptism as a requirement without making it a matter of salvation.

I extend the grace I mentioned above to those who have the freedom to respond to Jesus as the deem appropriate. Why do you insist that I, ” should be consistent like Nick.” He must share his convictions. You must share yours, I share mine.

I “mandate”, as you say, nothing but that you have faith in Jesus for your salvation and trust Him as having resolved your sin problem with His sacrifice. I share the hope that can be enjoyed as a result of His bodily resurrection.

You have mentioned legalism and then state I should be like Nick regarding baptism as necessary, which you have labeled legalism. Tell me, in the “Faith Alone” gospel, must I believe in the Trinity? If so, you condemn Nick and others. Must I not tithe? Can I not fast? What form of do's and dont's is legalism and which is not?

Blessings,

Seeking

March 4, 2009 at 6:25 pm#124075

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 04 2009,09:24)

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of Law, or by the hearing of Faith.

peace and love to you all………………………………………….gene

Gene,

Can you be specific for me here please. Do you believe that if He does “Find Faith” those “Faith” people will do all the things cited in Mark 16:18?

As an aside, you probably are aware of the manuscript disagreement with verse 9-20 in Marks gospel.

Blessings,

Seeking

March 4, 2009 at 6:50 pm#124082

Participant

Hi TT,
We should obey all righteousness.
God makes exceptions but He is sovereign.
We should not presume to be found among those exceptions.

March 6, 2009 at 4:43 pm#124391

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,05:03)

Nick,
You know very well that you have said that a person who has not been baptized is not fit to attend the wedding feast. You are correct though that faith involves obedience. But it involved obedience to the distinctive revelation that God had given. God revealed to the first century Jew that faith involved obedience to the command to be baptized. However, He revealed a seperate principle to the Gentile according to the revelation in nature.

BUT….All men today have been given one revelation. All men today have been told that justification is through FAITH ALONE. Therefore, the obedient actions appropriate to this is to cast yourself down at the Savior's feet and say “I can do nothing.” Yet you say, “I did this and that. I was baptized. I am Nick.”

Stop talking like a dufus Nick.

thinker

March 6, 2009 at 4:52 pm#124392

Participant

Seeking said:

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I am still unclear about what you are referring to as an “erroneous translation” in Mat. 4:23.

Seeking,
I was talking about Matthew 4:15 which according to our English Bibles the word ethnos is translated as “Gentiles.” From this erroneous translation many think that Jesus' Galilean ministry was to non-Jews. But I have shown that this was not the case historically.

thinker

March 6, 2009 at 4:52 pm#124393

Participant

Seeking said:

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I am still unclear about what you are referring to as an “erroneous translation” in Mat. 4:23.

thinker

March 6, 2009 at 6:22 pm#124403

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 07 2009,03:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,05:03)

Stop talking like a dufus Nick.

thinker

Hi TT,
Exactly.
Being baptised is not your own works.
It is the joyful work of the servants of Chist to help you obey the command.

March 6, 2009 at 6:27 pm#124404

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 06 2009,09:52)

Seeking said:

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I am still unclear about what you are referring to as an “erroneous translation” in Mat. 4:23.

thinker

OK. I have the right passage now and understand your point.

I also appreciate the taste of the “Faith Alone” gospel you included in your post to Nick. After casting ones self at the feet of the Savior, what does the faith walk look like?

Is it a Spirit led walk under God's empowerment? Are all varying levels in that walk?

Seeking

March 6, 2009 at 6:44 pm#124408

Participant

Hi,
Many imagine that they can make Jesus their Lord by some sort of personal affirmation.
Calling out LORD LORD does not make him our Lord but rather obedience makes us servants.

March 6, 2009 at 8:57 pm#124432

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2009,05:44)

Hi,
Many imagine that they can make Jesus their Lord by some sort of personal affirmation.
Calling out LORD LORD does not make him our Lord but rather obedience makes us servants.

Wise words, bro.

And what are the things we should specifically be obedient to? I've never actually made a list – maybe someone has?

March 6, 2009 at 9:04 pm#124437

Participant

Hi Not3,
What are the commands of Jesus?

You must be born again of water and the Spirit.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
As.. seek.. knock.
Love one another as I have loved you.
Do this in memory of me.
Abide in me.
Give….

March 6, 2009 at 9:13 pm#124439

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2009,08:04)

Hi Not3,
What are the commands of Jesus?

You must be born again of water and the Spirit.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
As.. seek.. knock.
Love one another as I have loved you.
Do this in memory of me.
Abide in me.
Give….

This is probably the single most important post I have ever read!!! I take back everything I've ever said about you, Nick. :laugh:

You need to paste and post this OFTEN…daily maybe?

Thanks for the list!
Love,
Mandy

March 6, 2009 at 9:37 pm#124440

Participant

Nick said:

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Being baptised is not your own works.
It is the joyful work of the servants of Chist to help you obey the command.

Nick,
You're contradicting yourself. You say it's not a work and then in the same breath say it is a work. Geez!

thinker

March 6, 2009 at 9:39 pm#124441