Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

Further understanding of the meaning of John’s baptism is gained by comparing various translations of Luke 3:3.
John came “preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins” (NW); “baptism conditioned on repentance” (CB); “baptism whereby men repented, to have their sins forgiven” (Kx); “baptism in token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” (NE); “Turn away from your sins and be baptized, and God will forgive your sins” (TEV).

These renderings make plain that the baptism did not wash away their sins, but the repentance and changing of their ways did, and of this, baptism was a symbol.

The BAPTISM OF JESUS HIMSELF as performed by John must of necessity have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John’s baptism, as Jesus “committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.” (1Pe 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus. But Jesus said: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.”—Mt 3:13-15.

Paul says that when Jesus Christ came “into the world” (that is, not when he was born and could not read and say these words, but when he presented himself for baptism and began his ministry) he was saying, in accord with Psalm 40:6-8 (LXX):“Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. . . . Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.” (Heb 10:5-9)
Jesus was presenting himself to his Father Jehovah to do his Father’s “will” with reference to the offering of his own “prepared” body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law.

The apostle Paul comments: “By the said ‘will’ we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” (Heb 10:10)

BAPTISM OF JESUS' FOLLOWERS
John’s baptism was due to be replaced by the baptism commanded by Jesus: “Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Mt 28:19)
That Christian baptism required an understanding of God’s Word and an intelligent decision to present oneself to do the revealed will of God was evident when, at Pentecost, 33 C.E., the Jews and proselytes there assembled, who already had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, heard Peter speak about Jesus the Messiah, with the result that 3,000 “embraced his word heartily” and “were baptized.” (Ac 2:41; 3:19–4:4; 10:34-38) Those in Samaria first believed Philip’s preaching of the good news, and then they were baptized. (Ac 8:12) The Ethiopian eunuch, a devout Jewish proselyte who, as such, also had knowledge of Jehovah and the Hebrew Scriptures, heard first the explanation of the fulfillment of these scriptures in Christ, accepted it, and then wanted to be baptized. (Ac 8:34-36) Peter explained to Cornelius that “the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable” (Ac 10:35) and that everyone putting faith in Jesus Christ gets forgiveness of sins through his name. (Ac 10:43; 11:18) All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ command to “make disciples . . . teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” Those who accept the teaching and who become disciples properly get baptized.—Mt 28:19, 20; Ac 1:8.

At Pentecost, Jews who bore community responsibility for Jesus’ death, and who doubtless knew of John’s baptism, were “stabbed to the heart” by Peter’s preaching and asked: “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter answered: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.” (Ac 2:37, 38)

He did not say that baptism itself washed away sins. Peter knew that “the blood of Jesus [God’s] Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1Jo 1:7) Later, after speaking of Jesus as “the Chief Agent of life,” Peter said to Jews at the temple: “REPENT, therefore, and TURN AROUND SO AS TO GET YOUR SINS BLOTTED OUT, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah.” (Ac 3:15, 19)

Here he instructed them that repenting of their bad deed against Christ and ‘turning around,’ to recognize him, was what brought forgiveness of sin; he did not at this point mention baptism.

As for the Jews, the Law covenant was abolished on the basis of Christ’s death on the torture stake (Col 2:14), and the new covenant became operative at Pentecost, 33 C.E. (Compare Ac 2:4; Heb 2:3, 4.) Nevertheless, God extended special favor to the Jews about three and a half years longer. During this time Jesus’ disciples confined their preaching to Jews, Jewish proselytes, and Samaritans. But about 36 C.E. God directed Peter to go to the home of the Gentile Cornelius, a Roman army officer, and by pouring out His holy spirit on Cornelius and his household, showed Peter that Gentiles could now be accepted for water baptism. (Ac 10:34, 35, 44-48) Since God no longer recognized the Law covenant with the circumcised Jews but now recognized only his new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, natural Jews, whether circumcised or uncircumcised, were not considered by God as being in any special relationship with him. They could not attain to a status with God by observing the Law, which was no longer valid, nor by John’s baptism, which had to do with the Law, but were obliged to approach God through faith in his Son and be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ in order to have Jehovah’s recognition and favor.

February 4, 2009 at 12:42 am#120227

Participant

Acts 22:16: “Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away BY YOUR CALLING UPON HIS NAME.”

February 4, 2009 at 12:44 am#120229

Participant

Quote

Both the circumcision and the baptism are spiritual. . . .Baptism does not replace circumcision. Rather both are spiritual now.

Are you suggesting that people are not to be literally baptized, with water?

February 4, 2009 at 12:46 am#120230

Participant

MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””

Christian baptism isn't something we do ourselves, apparently. It is something that is done to and for us. Therefore, it seems it must be literal.

February 4, 2009 at 12:49 am#120231

KangarooJack

Participant

David said:

Quote

“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””

David,
Jesus said that he would be with them until the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus was talking about the conclusion of the old covenant.

thinker

February 4, 2009 at 1:41 am#120237

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,13:36)

Nick said:

Quote

Baptism is the new circumcision.
Are those under the old covenant circumcised?
We should be 'circumcised' according to the NT

As both existed as an external ordinance under the old covenant, so both exist spiritually under the new covenant. Baptism does not replace circumcision. Rather both are spiritual now.

thinker

Thinker,

I think maybe a problem is that whenever people see the word baptism they immediately think immersed in water – however when you get John saying that he baptised (immersed) with water BUT Jesus was going to baptise (immerse) with the Holy Spirit the word itself meant immersion and the medium that was used was supplied separately – also when Jesus is talking about his death as his baptism in Matt 20:22-23 it relates to how we are baptised into his death – it is a spiritual baptism and like we are spiritually baptised into his death in like manner we will be raised as he was raised.

Col 2:12 speaks of this being buried with him in baptism – which I believe is spiritual not being dunked with water which is only a symbol and does not save us and I am not sure if it has anything to do with obedience like some say that even though it does nothing to save us it shows obedience.

We are told there is one Lord, one baptism (and I like the spiritual one thanks) Eph 4:5

February 4, 2009 at 2:01 am#120239

942767

Participant

Hi MK:

You quote the following from Ephesians:

Quote

We are told there is one Lord, one baptism (and I like the spiritual one thanks) Eph 4:5

And from 1 John:

Quote

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

February 4, 2009 at 3:23 am#120251

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 04 2009,13:46)

Christian baptism isn't something we do ourselves, apparently. It is something that is done to and for us. Therefore, it seems it must be literal.

I don't get your reasoning there – you say we do not baptise ourselves so it must be physical literal water – but what is being said here is go and make disciples of all nations {immersing them} in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit {teaching them} to observe all ……….

When you look at the phrase “baptising them in the name of” to me it does not sound like it means “using” or “saying” the name of the Father ..etc

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: – [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.

To me this sound more like the teaching is meant to make the disciple aware of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit and that is how we are baptised/immersed.

Romans 10:14 Romans 10:14 (King James Version)

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The making of the disciples and the baptising and the teaching is all related and I think it is more related to what actually happens on a heart and spirit level than participating in symbols that represent what is actually happening spiritually. JMHO

February 4, 2009 at 3:28 am#120252

Participant

Hi MK.
You say
“We are told there is one Lord, one baptism (and I like the spiritual one thanks) Eph 4:5 ”

Eph4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; “

So there the Spirit is mentioned twice.

“5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, “

Do you think this refers to the Spirit yet again?
Scripture is not repetitive without reason.

And Spirit baptism is based on the type of water baptism.
So when baptism without qualifying words occurs it means water baptism

February 4, 2009 at 3:47 am#120254

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2009,16:28)

Hi MK.
You say
“We are told there is one Lord, one baptism (and I like the spiritual one thanks) Eph 4:5 ”

Eph4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; “

So there the Spirit is mentioned twice.

“5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, “

Do you think this refers to the Spirit yet again?
Scripture is not repetitive without reason.

And Spirit baptism is based on the type of water baptism.
So when baptism without qualifying words occurs it means water baptism

Water baptism is a symbol and a type and it does nothing spiritually – if you do not believe and have faith the water does nothing – once you have faith and believe what has happened spiritually has already happened before water baptism – the water baptism is a symbol.

Sorry not sure what you mean about Spirit mentioned twice

February 4, 2009 at 3:54 am#120256

942767

Participant

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 04 2009,14:23)

Quote (david @ Feb. 04 2009,13:46)

Christian baptism isn't something we do ourselves, apparently. It is something that is done to and for us. Therefore, it seems it must be literal.

When you look at the phrase “baptising them in the name of” to me it does not sound like it means “using” or “saying” the name of the Father ..etc

To me this sound more like the teaching is meant to make the disciple aware of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit and that is how we are baptised/immersed.

Romans 10:14 Romans 10:14 (King James Version)

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Hi MK:

Jesus is the person who has the role of baptizing someone with the Holy Ghost.

The commission to the Apostles was to baptize in water. Just as they obeyed the commission throughout the Acts of the Apsostles.

Marty

February 4, 2009 at 3:57 am#120257

Participant

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 04 2009,16:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2009,16:28)

Hi MK.
You say
“We are told there is one Lord, one baptism (and I like the spiritual one thanks) Eph 4:5 ”

Eph4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; “

So there the Spirit is mentioned twice.

“5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, “

Do you think this refers to the Spirit yet again?
Scripture is not repetitive without reason.

And Spirit baptism is based on the type of water baptism.
So when baptism without qualifying words occurs it means water baptism

Sorry not sure what you mean about Spirit mentioned twice

Do you think I mean that the word baptism means spirit – I believe it means {immersion} it can mean physical watery immersion or spiritual immersion by the Holy Spirit.

One Lord, one faith, one immersion

We are spiritually united by the Spirit into one body – I believe this is all talking about the spiritual unity and spiritual baptism.

February 4, 2009 at 3:44 pm#120273

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,11:36)

Nick said:

Quote

Baptism is the new circumcision.
Are those under the old covenant circumcised?
We should be 'circumcised' according to the NT

As both existed as an external ordinance under the old covenant, so both exist spiritually under the new covenant. Baptism does not replace circumcision. Rather both are spiritual now.

thinker

thethinker………you have it right, we are now spiritually baptized and Keep the commandments through the Spirit of GOD. The ordinances contained in law Sabbath Days, Holy days clean and unclean meats all (physical), water Baptism (physical) all are shadows of of things (to come). These Physical shadows are fulfilled in Spirit. But some Carnal minded want to go to the weak and beggarly things. These are those who view the spiritual as Physical and are Carnal minded. Trying to obtain Salvation through their (so-called) free Choices with there minds always toward Physical accomplishments. They have exercised and trained themselves this way, they profess GOD but (DENY) the (POWER) there of. Twice Dead both now and in the time to come, they will not advance , they have gone away backward. They may even go into the kingdom when Jesus come but will not be changes into Spirit beings, and they will then be required to Keep all the ordinances of the Law as the rest of man kind will have to along with the Holy days and the Feast of Tabernacles as the rest of the (PHYSICAL) world will. For this they want to hang on to, the physical requirements of the law, then they will.

peace o you and yours…………………………gene

February 4, 2009 at 6:20 pm#120280

Participant

GB,
You are perhaps unwise to demean the righteous demands of our God.
Wisdom is justified by her children

Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

February 4, 2009 at 8:24 pm#120295

KangarooJack

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

Gene,
Amen brother! But many still want to live under the old covenant. They feel more secure in their own works then they do in the work of Christ in their behalf.

thinker

February 4, 2009 at 8:32 pm#120296

Participant

Hi TT,
What works?
Those who are clothed in the righteousness of the Son only have easy burdens.

February 4, 2009 at 10:24 pm#120309

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Nick………if it so easy then why preach FEAR religion?. Nick i really don't think you mean FEAR as some might < i Think you mean GODLY Fear which is great respect, brother. Lets All trust in the FATHER as Jesus taught us to. and all try to obey Him in LOVE and Confidence. He that works miracles among us, does it by Hearing of our FAITH.

peace………………………………gene

February 4, 2009 at 10:26 pm#120311