Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Cindy]

Gen Since you were in the W.W.C. of God, you have certainly changed your believes. No more Lake of Fire?
What does the Bible teach us, what God is going to do with Satan, His demons and Anti-Christ? And all those who will follow him? According to Rev. they are going to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. This earth is being reserved for the destruction of all evil men. Then the last thing God will destroy will be Death, (Satan)
All evil things one day will end and peace will only rule by all. God will be all in all. Hear that you fainted heart-ed? Re joy's and be glad, the time is short, the Trumpet shall sound and Christ shall descend and we will be with Him forever more. All in All. Made one by God's Holy Spirit.

Peace and Love Irene
P.S. Sorry my post has little to do with Baptism.

[KangarooJack]

Seeking said:

Quote

James is simply illustrating that performance must equal proclamation and, on the part of demons, it does not. He is in no way saying performance saves.  Grace saves

Seeking,
James said that Abraham was justified by his works,

Quote

Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (2:21)

Take James' statement about the justififcation of Abraham by works along with the fact that James made no reference at all to the death of Christ…ergo…James was written to the last of the old covenant saints.

thinker

[NickHassan]

GB,
Is God a failure to you if He does not save all?
Why not believe what He does say rather than adding such rash judgements?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 31 2009,13:02)

This is the first use I find of Baptism in scripture. Exodus 29:1-17(NIV) reads: Quote 1 “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect. 2 And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil. 3 Put them in a basket and present them in it—along with the bull and the two rams. 4 Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 5 Take the garments and dress Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself and the breastpiece. Fasten the ephod on him by its skillfully woven waistband. 6 Put the turban on his head and attach the sacred diadem to the turban. 7 Take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head. 8 Bring his sons and dress them in tunics 9 and put headbands on them. Then tie sashes on Aaron and his sons. The priesthood is theirs by a lasting ordinance. In this way you shall ordain Aaron and his sons. Of course if you do not want to be part of the priesthood of God that is your choice and like everyone you will suffer the repercussions for your choice.

Can you all see what I am saying now? Our brother Kerwin cites principles that were laid out in the old covenant and projects those outdated principles into the new covenant administration. This is the danger if you keep so much as one old covenant ordinance and carry it over into the new covenant.

So if you want to be a part of the priesthood, then find an alley cat and slay it. For we do not have bulls and rams walking around these days. If you don't slay something , you will “suffer the repercussions.” It just keeps getting more ridiculous!

CHRIST WAS THE LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! !

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Check that verse about the lamb slain with other translations and you will see the KJV has led you up a gumtree.

Compare these and you will see it is the book being spoken of.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[KangarooJack]

Nick said:

Quote

Check that verse about the lamb slain with other translations and you will see the KJV has led you up a gumtree. Compare these and you will see it is the book being spoken of. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

You missed my point Nick. Kerwin was saying that if we don't offer an animal we will “suffer the repercussions”. I was replying to that specifically. Jesus is the final “lamb” to be slain. Geez!

Kerwin would rather slay an animal to keep baptism than discard baptism and have Jesus only as the slain sacrifice.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Indeed he is the final lamb slain. Now, just as the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their lintels so the wrath of God passed them by so the blood of the passover lamb Jesus must be applied to our lives to avoid the wrath of God soon to be expressed against sinners.

Heb9
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1Jn5
7For there are three that testify:

8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 31 2009,10:41)

Seeking said: Quote James is simply illustrating that performance must equal proclamation and, on the part of demons, it does not. He is in no way saying performance saves.  Grace saves Seeking, James said that Abraham was justified by his works, Quote Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (2:21) Take James' statement about the justififcation of Abraham by works along with the fact that James made no reference at all to the death of Christ…ergo…James was written to the last of the old covenant saints. thinker

Thinker,

[/QUOTE]Seeking,
James said that Abraham was justified by his works,

Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (2:21)

Quote

Correct! Thinker said James explicitly says that Abraham and Rahab were saved by works (James 2).

Thinker says

Quote

SAVED

the text says

Quote

justified.

You will claim thay are the same- not so

SAVED – sozo, sode'-zo; from a primary sos (contracted for obsolete saos, “safe”); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literal or figurative) :- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

JUSTIFIED – dikaioo, dik-ah-yo'-o; from Greek 1342 (dikaios); to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent :- free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

Thus my analogy and application –

Quote

The text speaks nothing of salvation it addresses consideration ( considered righteous ) based on performance. James is simply saying Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do let your walk match your talk!

Once again I am persuaded that you read only to respond and not to understand. I will not involve myself in such queries any further.

Blessings in your walk,

Seeking

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 31 2009,20:59)

942767 said: Quote You mean building on the foundation like wood, hay and stubble? Hi Marty, Paul explicitly said that we are to build upon the foundation with gold and precious jewels. These represent God's new covenant principles. The wood, hay and stubble are the things of the old covenant. Baptisms belong to the old covenant and are therefore wood, hay and stubble. We build upon the foundation by teaching obedience to God according to the spirit of the law. Jesus said: Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him, (John 4:23). Did you feel that? The Father “is seeking” people who worship Him according to the spirit of the law. But we put people back under the letter of the law when we mandate baptism, observing the sabbath or tithing or any other old covenant, ceremonial law. Gos speed, thinker

Hi thethinker:

Whatever we do in obedience to God is out of love for Him and for humanity.  In the NT, we are operating under the law of liberty, which is the law of love.  

Jesus stated: “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

We obey him because we love him, and if we don't then we shouldn't pretend that we do.

Water baptism is a work of obedience to God showing that you have believed and have repented and are united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection.

Quote

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin

And so, you see it signifies that one has died unto sin, and been resurrected by the Holy Spirit in the same manner that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Quote

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

But if you don't want to be baptized, then don't do it.  You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.

We are saved by faith that obeys out of love for God and for humanity.  If the motivation is not love, then God won't honour what is being done.

And as you say, God desires those who worship Him to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Whatever we do whether it is obeying the Sabbath or tithing our income we do out of our love for God.  Again, you don't have to do anything that you do not want to do.  It is good principle for one to rest one day per week and to go worship with fellow believers, and tithing is a principle for giving, it is not a requirement.  Again, you don't have to give any thing if you don't want to give.  Whatever is in your possession is yours to do as you choose.

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So we need not obey?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2009,14:07)

Hi 94, So we need not obey?

Hi Nick:

We don't need to do anything that we do not want to do. As born again Christians, we obey because we love God and we love humanity and want the very best that God has to offer for them.

But,

Quote

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Rebirth following Jesus involves submission to water baptism.
Seek ye first the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2009,14:49)

Hi 94, Rebirth following Jesus involves submission to water baptism. Seek ye first the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.

Hi NIck:

Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But if we don't want what God has promised, then we don't have to obey.

[NickHassan]

Absolutely 94.
Free choice

[GeneBalthrop]

942767. …. your obedience to anything coming from yourself will not get you anything with God, We must be (CREATED) Righteous by GOD HIMSELF without any help from us. “for it is God who (WORKS) in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. WE are transformed by GOD Himself and GOD himself gets (ALL) the Glory. Men like to steal Gods glory to themselves. AS God said through Jesus, “all the every came before me were liars and thieves”. Man is liar thinking His so-called FREE CHOICES, Saves Him and he repents on his own, and He is also a thief because He is stealing Glory that belongs to God and taking it to himself. 94 think about it.

love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene

[david]

If a father forces a son to do something, of what glory is it to the Father?

If the son does it out of love for the father, that is glory to the Father.

[NickHassan]

GB
You quote from a letter to the saved

“for it is God who (WORKS) in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. as if it was for the heathen?

Why is this?
God is not in the evildoers.

[kerwin]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,01:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 31 2009,13:02) This is the first use I find of Baptism in scripture. Exodus 29:1-17(NIV) reads: Quote 1 “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect. 2 And from fine wheat flour, without yeast, make bread, and cakes mixed with oil, and wafers spread with oil. 3 Put them in a basket and present them in it—along with the bull and the two rams. 4 Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 5 Take the garments and dress Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself and the breastpiece. Fasten the ephod on him by its skillfully woven waistband. 6 Put the turban on his head and attach the sacred diadem to the turban. 7 Take the anointing oil and anoint him by pouring it on his head. 8 Bring his sons and dress them in tunics 9 and put headbands on them. Then tie sashes on Aaron and his sons. The priesthood is theirs by a lasting ordinance. In this way you shall ordain Aaron and his sons. Of course if you do not want to be part of the priesthood of God that is your choice and like everyone you will suffer the repercussions for your choice. Can you all see what I am saying now? Our brother Kerwin cites principles that were laid out in the old covenant and projects those outdated principles into the new covenant administration. This is the danger if you keep so much as one old covenant ordinance and carry it over into the new covenant. So if you want to be a part of the priesthood, then find an alley cat and slay it. For we do not have bulls and rams walking around these days. If you don't slay something , you will “suffer the repercussions.” It just keeps getting more ridiculous! CHRIST WAS THE LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! ! thinker

You fail to understand why I quoted that passage. Remember that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Like Aron and his sons he was entering the ministry. In the steps of Jesus we too will become a royal priesthood if we choose to follow his footsteps. Did Jesus rebel and say I have faith and so I do not have to do the work and be baptized or did he rather tell John the Baptist.

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

[KangarooJack]

942767 said:

Quote

Water baptism is a work of obedience to God showing that you have believed and have repented and are united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection.

Marty,
First, baptism is NOT a requirement in the new covenant age. It was a part of the foundation which has been laid once for all. The command is to not lay that foundation again. Therefore, obedience to God is accepting that Christ paid it all.

Second, you say that baptism is an act whereby we show that we have believed and repented. Where do you get this from Scripture? I know that pastors say this but I don't see it in Scripture.

This topic is under the more general heading “Truth or Tradition.” I believe that your comments are tradition.

cordially,
thinker

[KangarooJack]

Marty said:

Quote

Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Marty,
You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again.

thinker

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