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Nick……..So what does that got to do with what i posted, Do you really think dunking yourself in water really rebirths you.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come and let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let Him take the water of life freely. How do you know Jesus was not talking abut the water of life.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
GB,
Check the book of acts.
The water of life is the Spirit.Jesus did not say you must be reborn of the Spirit and the Spirit.
Nick………you night be right, Exactly where is that said in the book of acts. would like to see that please.
love and Peace to you and yours…………………………….gene
GB,
Are there 15 or more water baptisms to look at in Acts.
Check them out as the apostles showed us the way.Nick said:
Quote You must be born again of water and the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that they were clean through the word He spoke to them, “Now you ALREADY are clean through the word I have spoken to you” (John 15:3).
Note that Jesus said that they were “already” cleansed by the Word and not by water. The disciples were never baptized. They didn't need the ceremonial cleansing because Christ had cleansed them Himself through His word. What about this Nick?
Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26). So the “water” in John 3 is the word of God. A man must be born of water [the word] and the Spirit. I don't understand why Nick wants to continue to live under the old covenant. Water baptism was old covenant as has repeatedly been shown from Hebrews 6:1-2).
Yet Nick wants to stay under the old covenant.
thinker
thinker Water Baptism has to do with the Old Testament? I did not think so when I was baptized and submerged completely under water, then had laid hands on. For what its worth, the next day was amazing, God's Holy Spirit showed me every time I sinned. I had never experienced that before and I do associate that with my Baptism.
Peace amd Love IreneThe Thinker wrote:
Quote Water baptism was old covenant as has repeatedly been shown from Hebrews 6:1-2).
And so were repentance and the resurrection of the dead according to you logic as they are also mentioned in verse two. So you must believe Jesus was not raised from the dead? You are obviously misinterpreting that scripture and any one with any common sense realizes it.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2009,16:51) To All……Why did John tell Jesus that he needed to be Baptized with His baptism, and why did he say I indeed baptize with water , But he who comes after me will baptize with Fire and Spirit. Think about it. Whose baptism counts Johns or Jesus', and why did John say what he said if He did not perceive Jesus' baptism as more important then His? Is it the baptism of the Spirit and Fire you want or to get wet.? I got wet twice and Got baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire once and the only one that lasted was the baptism of the Spirit and Fire. IMO love and peace to you all………………………gene
Greetings Gene……..I will take the water…..A baptism in fire is something we will all not survive….It will come our way in the form of tribulation and those who,through grace and are a spirit filled will overcome……Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,15:19) GB,
Check the book of acts.
The water of life is the Spirit.Jesus did not say you must be reborn of the Spirit and the Spirit.
Nick………..only interested in the one that say “the (water of Life) is the Spirit” in Acts, if you would be so kind as to Just post that one.love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,20:15) Nick said: Quote You must be born again of water and the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that they were clean through the word He spoke to them, “Now you ALREADY are clean through the word I have spoken to you” (John 15:3).
Note that Jesus said that they were “already” cleansed by the Word and not by water. The disciples were never baptized. They didn't need the ceremonial cleansing because Christ had cleansed them Himself through His word. What about this Nick?
Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26). So the “water” in John 3 is the word of God. A man must be born of water [the word] and the Spirit. I don't understand why Nick wants to continue to live under the old covenant. Water baptism was old covenant as has repeatedly been shown from Hebrews 6:1-2).
Yet Nick wants to stay under the old covenant.
thinker
Hi TT,
Yes the apostles were exempt because they were cleansed by the Word.Does that mean we are all cleansed by the Word when we have not been given that personal assurance?
Certainly the apostles did not take that meaning as in the book of Acts they water baptised all who came to Jesus.
Kerwin said:
Quote And so were repentance and the resurrection of the dead according to you logic as they are also mentioned in verse two. So you must believe Jesus was not raised from the dead? You are obviously misinterpreting that scripture and any one with any common sense realizes it.
Kerwin,
Nothing I have said infers that Christ was not raised from the dead. Hebrews says that those “elementary principles” were foundational and those Jews were warned not to lay that foundation again. The one who lays the foundation again is guilty of crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame (v.6).So you might want to re-think your idea that baptism still applies today. For it amounts to crucifying the Son of God again.
blessings,
thinkerNick said:
Quote Yes the apostles were exempt because they were cleansed by the Word. Does that mean we are all cleansed by the Word when we have not been given that personal assurance?
Certainly the apostles did not take that meaning as in the book of Acts they water baptised all who came to Jesus.
Again Nick, Hebrews 6:1-2 says that repentance and baptism was foundational. Those Jewish Christians were warned not to lay that foundation again. It's that simple.thinker
Hi TT,
I agree you should not have that foundation laid again once you are established in the Lord Jesus.Hi TT,
Of course you must first have that foundation laid if you are unsaved and yet under the wrath of God.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,02:15)
Thinker,You wrote –
“Jesus told His disciples that they were clean through the word He spoke to them, “Now you ALREADY are clean through the word I have spoken to you” (John 15:3).”
“Word” here is “logos”
Then you wrote –
“Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26).”
I say you wrote because I have not the version that states,
” water which is the Word” can you direct me to it?Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”“Word” here is “Rhema” which carries a different concept than “logos.”
Then you wrote –
Water baptism was old covenant as has repeatedly been shown from Hebrews 6:1-2).
Reading that text beginning at Heb.5:11
HEB 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
The writer is talking to babes encouraging them to grow in basic teachings about Christ (which he states include [/B]Baptism[/B] etc. So, these were NOT OT teachings but teachings about Christ. They could not move on to meat because they did not grasp the basics!
Seeking
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Nothing I have said infers that Christ was not raised from the dead. Hebrews says that those “elementary principles” were foundational and those Jews were warned not to lay that foundation again. The one who lays the foundation again is guilty of crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame (v.6).
So you might want to re-think your idea that baptism still applies today. For it amounts to crucifying the Son of God again.
Then you are not listening to your own argument as verses 1 and 2 of the 6th chapter of Hebrews clearly reads:
Hebrews 6:1-2(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Anyone reading it can clearly see the writer listed a number of items the considered elementary teachings and not just baptism as you are insisting. The list starts with “repentance from acts that lead to death, and “faith in God” in verse one and then goes on to “instruction about baptisms”, “the laying on of hands”, “the resurrection of the dead”, and “eternal judgment” in verse two. So if as you say the writer is urging people to discard one of these from the gospel then it follows by logical reasoning that he must mean that all the rest must be discarded from the gospel. The conclusion is that you must believe that “faith in God” and “resurrection of the dead(Jesus) were also discarded from the gospel. I am of course assuming you are making a rational interpretation as God is a rational God.
Now if you were to make a rational interpretation of verse 6 then you would realize that if a person is baptized with the true faith in their heart and then goes back to their old ways, “falls away”, and then is brought back to the true faith, “brought back to repentance” and is baptized again in faith they could be said to be crucifying Jesus a second time as they are dying with him and being resurrected as a new creation when baptized in faith.
Seeking wrote
Quote “Word” here is “logos” Greetings Seeking,
How does the use of “logos” disprove what I said. It was still that which Christ spoke to them that cleansed them.Quote “Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26).” I say you wrote because I have not the version that states,
” water which is the Word” can you direct me to it?Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”The Greek says “IN the word”. Christ cleanses His church by washing her IN the Word. Wouldn't you agree that the Word is likened to water if we are washed IN it?
Quote The writer is talking to babes encouraging them to grow in basic teachings about Christ (which he states include [/B]Baptism[/B] etc. So, these were NOT OT teachings but teachings about Christ. They could not move on to meat because they did not grasp the basics! You say that they did not grasp the basics. But the word “basics” is not used. Baptism is called one of the “elementary principles”. According to Paul the “elementary principles” are old covenant things (Galatians).
The author to the Hebrews told them to LEAVE those things and to not hold on to them. It goes on to say that holding on to those things amounts to crucifying the Son of God again. Those who require baptism today are putting people under the old covenant again.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,15:01) Seeking wrote Quote “Word” here is “logos” Greetings Seeking,
How does the use of “logos” disprove what I said. It was still that which Christ spoke to them that cleansed them.Quote “Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26).” I say you wrote because I have not the version that states,
” water which is the Word” can you direct me to it?Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”The Greek says “IN the word”. Christ cleanses His church by washing her IN the Word. Wouldn't you agree that the Word is likened to water if we are washed IN it?
Quote The writer is talking to babes encouraging them to grow in basic teachings about Christ (which he states include [/B]Baptism[/B] etc. So, these were NOT OT teachings but teachings about Christ. They could not move on to meat because they did not grasp the basics! You say that they did not grasp the basics. But the word “basics” is not used. Baptism is called one of the “elementary principles”. According to Paul the “elementary principles” are old covenant things (Galatians).
The author to the Hebrews told them to LEAVE those things and to not hold on to them. It goes on to say that holding on to those things amounts to crucifying the Son of God again. Those who require baptism today are putting people under the old covenant again.
thinker
Thinker,I questioned your leap from the “logos” in Jn.15:3 to the “rhema” in Eph. 5:26. As I understand it one (Jn) is what was said, the other is how it was personally understood (Eph).
Paul is not saying what Jesus said and I thought that was what you were emplying.“The Greek says “IN the word”. Christ cleanses His church by washing her IN the Word. Wouldn't you agree that the Word is likened to water if we are washed IN it?”
to-THE loutrw loutron n_ Dat Sg n BATH
tou hot_ Gen Sg n OF-THE
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water
en en Prep INActually, it says “in the water”.
“You say that they did not grasp the basics. But the word “basics” is not used. Baptism is called one of the “elementary principles”. According to Paul the “elementary principles” are old covenant things (Galatians).”
Literally, it states “principles” in the Greek not “elementary.
Excuse plese my equating “basics” with “principles. Here the
writer cleraly defines them as “the doctrine of Christ” regardless of Paul's usage in Galatians.Hebrews 6:1 (KJV)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of christ let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,“Those who require baptism today are putting people under the old covenant again.”
“Require” is not in my thinking as much as the Spiritual experience a NT believer can have at the point of immersion
Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.This to name only two passages. Preaching the NT and apostles version of “preaching Jesus” obviously included baptism – thus the Eunuch understood.
AC 8:34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
AC 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?” 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
These references to Jesus and baptism are far removed from the OT. The Eunuch poses an interesting question,
WHY SHOULD'NT I BE BAPTIZIED?
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