Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Not3in1]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for clarifying.  I went to bed thinking about the “water” and the “spirit” and what it all means.

Quote

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Here Nico is replying to Jesus' command that you must be born “again”.  He immediately assumes that Jesus is talking about a physical birth and even says, “….can he enter the second time into his mother's womb…..?”  Nico assumes that being born again means to go through the birthing process again.

Jesus corrects him and says,

Quote

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus is explaining to Nico that yes you must first be born of your mother, meaning you must first be born of water in the womb (symbolic for flesh), and then be born AGAIN of the Spirit.

This idea is reinforced when Jesus says,

Quote

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In other words, that which is born of the flesh, your physical birth from your mother (water), AND that which is born of the Spirit is (spirit).

Bringing us back to:  You must be born again of water and of the Spirit.  Nico and Jesus are talking about being BORN.  Both physically through our mother's and spiritually through the Spirit.

No water “baptism” is alluded to or implied here, imo.
Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

We can only be born once, as Nico pointed out and Jesus agreed (flesh gives birth to flesh).

In my opinion, being “born of the Spirit” has nothing to do with water baptism at all.

Ephesians 1:13, 14

And you also were included in Christ when you heard he word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance….

All Nico had to do was believe the word of truth Jesus was telling him….. He didn't need to be water baptized to be born again into the family of God and receive his promised inheritance.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:22)

We can only be born once, as Nico pointed out and Jesus agreed (flesh gives birth to flesh). In my opinion, being “born of the Spirit” has nothing to do with water baptism at all. Ephesians 1:13, 14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard he word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance…. All Nico had to do was believe the word of truth Jesus was telling him…..  He didn't need to be water baptized to be born again into the family of God and receive his promised inheritance.

Agreed…but do forget the disciples of John rebaptism in Acts…

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:13)

Hi Nick, Thanks for clarifying.  I went to bed thinking about the “water” and the “spirit” and what it all means. Quote 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Here Nico is replying to Jesus' command that you must be born “again”.  He immediately assumes that Jesus is talking about a physical birth and even says, “….can he enter the second time into his mother's womb…..?”  Nico assumes that being born again means to go through the birthing process again. Jesus corrects him and says, Quote 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus is explaining to Nico that yes you must first be born of your mother, meaning you must first be born of water in the womb (symbolic for flesh), and then be born AGAIN of the Spirit. This idea is reinforced when Jesus says, Quote 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. In other words, that which is born of the flesh, your physical birth from your mother (water), AND that which is born of the Spirit is (spirit). Bringing us back to:  You must be born again of water and of the Spirit.  Nico and Jesus are talking about being BORN.  Both physically through our mother's and spiritually through the Spirit. No water “baptism” is alluded to or implied here, imo. Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
That's wonderful explanation of Jn 3:3-8. I think no one can explain better than that. I want to add one more thing: “born of spirit” is also another literal birth for a person though not through conception process but through resurrection where this mortal body takes over by the spiritual body as per St. paul in 1 Cori 15, I believe that will be our literal “born of spirit”. Now we only have the internal regeneration of Spirit of God but it has not yet happened to us literally being “born of spirit” which will take place on the Last day as per Jesus words that is nothing but our resurrection into God's kingdom.
Love to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,01:38)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:22) We can only be born once, as Nico pointed out and Jesus agreed (flesh gives birth to flesh). In my opinion, being “born of the Spirit” has nothing to do with water baptism at all. Ephesians 1:13, 14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard he word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance…. All Nico had to do was believe the word of truth Jesus was telling him…..  He didn't need to be water baptized to be born again into the family of God and receive his promised inheritance. Agreed…but do forget the disciples of John rebaptism in Acts…

Can you elaborate on this, DK?
Thanks,
Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

Mandy……Good post you and Adam both have it right, I see it that way also.There is a physical berth through water and there is a Spiritual Berth through Spirit. Right on.

Love and peace to you both………….gene

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,02:00)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,01:38) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:22) We can only be born once, as Nico pointed out and Jesus agreed (flesh gives birth to flesh). In my opinion, being “born of the Spirit” has nothing to do with water baptism at all. Ephesians 1:13, 14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard he word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance…. All Nico had to do was believe the word of truth Jesus was telling him…..  He didn't need to be water baptized to be born again into the family of God and receive his promised inheritance. Agreed…but do forget the disciples of John rebaptism in Acts… Can you elaborate on this, DK? Thanks, Mandy

Acts 19:1-6…. 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John's baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.

Some say that before Paul laid hands on them they were baptized by water…I tend to think they were also..

[GeneBalthrop]

DK….. i think they were also, but it didn't do anything for them, It's when they recieved the Baptism of Holy Spirit that there lives began to change.

peace………gene

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,04:26)

DK….. i think they were also, but it didn't do anything for them, It's when they recieved the Baptism of Holy Spirit that there lives began to change. peace………gene

agreed….Just pointing out that I don't think water baptism has been invalidated or eliminated..I think its part of the process…but as I said in another post…I do think if their were not a drop of water left on earth we could still be saved because baptism in the spirit is ultimately what brings salvation..

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,22:24)

Hi Nick, So many quotes at a time. Yes unless a soul takes birth as flesh there is no question of all these arguements here. yes I am born of Spirit of God internally but I have not yet left my flesh body (natural body) and taken the spiritual, then only it is called as born of spirit literally. How can you ignore such facts it happens only when I am resurrected to enter literally into God's kingdom. Do you believe God's kingdom has come literally now on the earth. If so why you are praying for that to happen on earth as it is in heaven. Is Jesus sitting on the throne of David in God's kingdom now on earth? Why are you so much ignorant of these simple truths. You want to question people with your preconceived assumptions. No.. No.. that is wrong my friend. Please take care Adam

Hi GM,
So a souls needs to take birth?
Do souls preexist bodies??
Sounds gnostic to me.

Are you not yet begotten of God?
1Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
…

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.'

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
“You must be born of your mother”

Hmm.
Too deep for me.
Do you know anyone who was not?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,07:08)

Hi not3, “You must be born of your mother” Hmm. Too deep for me. Do you know anyone who was not?

Remember Nico said, should we go again inside of our mother? And Jesus said, no flesh gives birth to flesh, you must be born of water AND the Spirit. So, born of “flesh” AND “Spirit”.

But it sounds like we see this differently. If you can explain to me where baptism is in this passage, maybe I can see your point more clearly.

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,04:03)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,02:00) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,01:38) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:22) We can only be born once, as Nico pointed out and Jesus agreed (flesh gives birth to flesh). In my opinion, being “born of the Spirit” has nothing to do with water baptism at all. Ephesians 1:13, 14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard he word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance…. All Nico had to do was believe the word of truth Jesus was telling him…..  He didn't need to be water baptized to be born again into the family of God and receive his promised inheritance. Agreed…but do forget the disciples of John rebaptism in Acts… Can you elaborate on this, DK? Thanks, Mandy Acts 19:1-6…. 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”      They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”      “John's baptism,” they replied. 4Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. Some say that before Paul laid hands on them they were baptized by water…I tend to think they were also..

Oh, yes, I had forgotten about this passage. Thanks, DK.

This begs the question did Paul think water baptism was not enough? Some believe it is. I don't, but some do.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Flesh begets only flesh and as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor 15] that door is closed.
God does not recognise us as His sons through Adam.

A man must be born of water and the Spirit.

[Not3in1]

Do you see how Nico related being born of his mother as water? And then Jesus immediately likened the water unto flesh?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3.
No.
Water is completely unlike to flesh and the two are not shown to parallel one another anywhere.
And if God wanted us to take that idea He would have made similar statements elsewhere in scripture.
Can you find them?

[charity]

being born again of a good seed or bad seed…you are who you are in the end of your being sowing, thy that you follow, have sown you and born you after their thinking, because we humans are pretty addictive creatures, and theologies is like drunken ness to many, many cant stand up, or speck an intelligent word from there own thinking, because they are born of letters written.

Must be born again is from one book that is John the perverted of grace and mercey, a magician that can change everything to a command in one word and Law…as such…you “Must” be born again…he is a bully and confessor of confusion, if you should open your eyes,
what should have been easy to comprehend and follow, while you are as babies, and are in need of following others thoughts, that make claim to their God Natures within.

Thank you..I myself, am tired of watching this chasing the tale, dizzy people running in circules with out seeing the door.

[NickHassan]

Hi c,
This thread is for believers.
John's writings are of faith

[charity]

Apparently there is no in between, the minds jam themselves hard against walls.
the swiches are either on or off!
theres no thinking for ones self
theres no finding the seed within
for the sower of deceit will ctach it away
how dose he do that?
his words are written just were you pay attenton and look.
and away goes the truth, repalced with agruments

the bible is full of many reveiws

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,08:42)

Do you see how Nico related being born of his mother as water?  And then Jesus immediately likened the water unto flesh?

Hi not3,
Jn3
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Where did Nicodemus mention water?

[Author]

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