Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi:

You:

You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.

Me:

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. 3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Me: The church grows into a royal priesthood and should search out hidden things. I am not impressed at all by your exegesis which is shallow with no lateral vision.

[Truthcomber]

You Quoted me:

You gave 2 Corinthians 12 and then said,
“a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.
A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).”

You: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”.1 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Me: You got to be kidding. This is an example of your blindness and near slightness and tunnel vision. The verse clearly that the vision is about a man caught up in the third heaven, which is paradise (the same paradise as the thief on the cross) and there heard unspeakable words that must have come from God. Our focus here is on being resurrected into heaven when and how, not about unspeakable words. Who cares if this man (you are assuming that it Paul, which is probably true) heard speakable or unspeakable words as far as what we are focusing on, the resurrection, not on the humility of Paul speaking in the third person.

You:
:YOU Respond by saying: Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above.
You are not making sense. Are you NOW saying that 2 Corinthians 12 does not mean what you thought it meant?

Me: I rarely encounter such poor thinking before. The reason I had not mentioned it here thoroughly is because I had mentioned it lots of time prior. So you have carry that thought over to here and to assume my position did not change. I never said or implied that I had I changed my position. In fact I had just mentioned Pentecost in the prior paragraph. There is no need for paragraphs that are unwieldy and long.

You quoted me: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”

You: Is your problem in the fact I gave 1 Corinthians 12:1-7 and not just 1-4, and now the passage doesn’t fit into your doctrine?

Me: Verses 5-7 have nothing at all to do at all with the resurrection and what we are focusing on. We are focusing on the resurrection, not on Paul’s humility. DA!!!

You: What are you trying to say talking about line upon line? We can take one line from the bible and have it mean whatever we want, and find another line out of context and make it fit with the other we took out of context, you didn’t even do that you took 4 lines and tried to make it fit with your doctrine. Most are blind to what the NT says because they do not apply the OT to it, as did the so called “early church fathers”, instead they applied their love for Greek beliefs and philosophies. I dispute what people say often because they ignore the surrounding text of the chapter, they ignore what the chapter is saying and say they are pulling out hidden truth. They miss the entire message of the author, they miss the truth of the word of God, because they are searching for hidden meanings, and what they often create is just an absolute distraction from the truth that is actually being told.

Me:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Me: This is how you understand scripture and how you don’t. This is not talking about taking one whole chapter and meshing it with another whole chapter. It addresses that a percept or concept and combining it with other concepts or percepts elsewhere in the bible to show a principle or enlightment. I guess you do not believe the Almighty but in yourself and vanity.

The other reason for “verse upon verse” is:

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Me: The bible was to be understood by combining a little here and a little there, even if it is just a phrase. Searching for the truth this way was also to blind those that God has chosen to not understand the word of God.

You: Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.

Me: Another unsound statement by you.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You:

I have spoken about 2 Corinthians 5 extensively. The verses are clear if you apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words. Romans 7 in particular makes it clear. Paul despised his own mortal body, he desired to have an immortal body. He knew that if he died and his body decayed (dissolved) he would rise from the Me: I have reconciled the scriptures.

Me: You’re joking. You have not reconciled anything. You have not addressed how Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 ties in but does not produce no contradictions.

You: dead receiving a heavenly eternal body becoming a heavenly man. He wanted to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY. He felt naked and ashamed in his mortal body, he knew that the law was spiritual but he was carnal sold in sin. He saw himself as a wretched man as that which he knew was good he could not do. He was repentant and saw the law as good and desired to follow it perfectly, but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him. Paul does not feel at home in his mortal body, he is not comfortable in it he loathes it, if he felt comfortable he would be separated from God enjoying his sins feeling right at home in his body. The BODY in which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5 is a MORTAL body that he is confident will be swallowed up into life.

Me:
You have not tied in 1Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:86 and how it fits with 1 Thes 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 without any contradictions, because the bible does not contradict itself.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Me: We have borne the image of the first man which is of the earth, the dead in Christ. We will now bear the image of the heavenly which is not of the present body we have.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (present body of the earth)  inherit incorruption (future body from heaven that is not of the earth).

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Me: It is what is in Paul’s flesh that causes him to sin.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;…

Me: We have the dna from both the devil and Adam. When we follow the devil, he is our father, when we follow the holy spirit, we are the sons of God. The objective is to grow more in the spirit and less with it’s been lessened by the devil, for we are truly of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

You: We follow the spirit or we follow the devil. We grow in the spirit of life or decrease in death of the spirit of life. Knowing Paul’s words throughout his writings we know that Paul never speaks of needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord, he desires to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY, one that is free from sin and temptation that does not in away separate him from God’s will. One day he will be absent from a mortal body, as that body will be swallowed up into life. One mortal body made into an immortal body, not having NO BODY at all. Paul goes onto speak of the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, of which Daniel speaks of,
Daniel 12:2 And many (H7227) of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Me: “Many” and not all are in this resurrection. Dan 12:2 corresponds with John 5:28 and not John 5:25. The “all’ in Dan 2 and John 5:28 are all of the remainder that was not in John 5:25 and the first resurrection. John 5:25 corresponds with all the dead saints up to Pentecost.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You: Paul had faith that if he died and his body decayed he would WAKE from the DEAD unto eternal life with an immortal BODY, and he tells us directly from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 that this occurs at Christ’s return when the trumpet sounds.

Me: No, Absolutely not.  The body with the devil in it is not made immortal. You need to reconcile this with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 as I have done and which you have not.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi

You: NOPE, the mystery that we are given by Paul, is that not all men will die, those at Christ’s return will NOT, they will be changed. It is appointed for all men to die once, as we are all born MORTALS, but the mystery that Paul gives us is that those at Christ’s return who are his that are still alive do not end up dying, they end up going from mortal to immortal.

Me:

Heb 9:27 says differently

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed):

Me: The body we sow of the human mind with the human spirit is not the body that will be that we sow with the human mind with the holy spirit. The body that we sow with the human spirit must die so the body we sow with the holy spirit must live. The human spirit that we have will be replaced with the holy spirit as our only spirit. The human body that we have will be replaced by the spirit body we have reserved in heaven for us.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You: 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

You: :TC you are just making stuff up. Paul directly tells us in 2 places the opposite of what you are saying. Likewise Paul tells us directly that he desired to be CLOTHED with an imperishable body, of which he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s return, not to go be with Christ and God in heaven without having a body at all when a person dies. Paul knew that if his mortal body died and dissolved he had a new body stored for him with God, and his faith as we are told directly by him is that he will receive an imperishable body at Christ’s return.

1 thess 4 would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to share that which you say TC, but he DOES NOT. He says at the end of the chapter, “18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

You TC, are encouraging the belief of falsehood, that when we die we go be with the lord in heaven without a body. Paul’s faith and hope was to BE CLOTHED with an IMPERISHABLE BODY and that is when he KNEW he was going to MEET CHRIST, and he tells us directly that occurs at Christ’s second coming.

Me: No, it is you that have the false teaching. You have not considered all of the scripture . You must reconcile this scripture with Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 with 1 Thes 4 and with 1 Cor 15. You have not done this and have repeatedly avoided doing so—because you can’t with your unbiblical doctrine.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Gene,

You:

Truthcomber. …..The change Paul is talking about is not a different “kind” of body ,but our same bodies are changed from “mortal” to “inmortal”, just as he said, “for this corruptible must put “ON” incoruption, so whats being changed?, our present bodies from (coruption to incoruption) where does it say the body itself is done away with.

Me:

1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (seed) 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Me: We are given new bodies of the seed (holy spirit) in us. The seed (human spirit) produces a body of death that will not live forever.

You: Rom 6:5…. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the “likeness” of his resurection.

Now how was Jesus raised, was it with a different “kind or type” of body, NO, it was not, but was the same body that he had that became uncoruptible and immortal. His same existing body went from mortal to immortal. The same thing applies to those who have died they will be given new flesh and bone bodies that can live forever, and they that are alive at his comming, their bodies will simply become incorruptible and immortal.

1 John 3;2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Me: We shall be like the Lord and have a body of the same substance. It does not appear what we should be. So the human body we clothe are clothe with is not the body that we inherit.

You: If our bodies were not needed , then there would be no need of a resurection of them at all.
“For our hope (once we die) is for the resurection, that will witness redemption of “OUR BODIES”. Paul tells us. And if we are still alive at his comming we hope that our present bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incoruptable, either way or present bodies need to put on imortality, as well as incoruption, then the grave has no power any more, just as it say, “for this corruption must put on incorruption, this mortal must put on immortality,

Me:
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (our present corruptible bodies) inherit incorruption (our new incorruptible bodies).

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Cor 5:1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:]

Me: Our new bodies are from heaven. It is not our physical bodies that will be converted to spirit ones.

You: then will be brought the saying , “O GRAVE WHERE IS YOUR VICTOR. ” Did you notice it says “O GRAVE” , now what does the grave have to Deal with, the spirit or the Body. The body of course because the spirit goes BACK TO HIM WHO GAVE IT WHEN A PERSON DIES, the only thing the grave holds is the “BODY” and that is

Me: We will not inherit the bodies in the graves. We obtain new bodies from heaven.

Me: We will not inherit the bodies in the graves.

[Truthcomber]

Gene.

 

Like Jodi, your doctrine is not based on all scripture:  You have glaringly not considered  Cor 12:2-3, 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 2 Cor 5:8 and how it relates to 1 Thes 4 and with 1 Cor

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

Again You,

You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.

Dan 12:2 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Me: You cannot rely on the interpretations of scholars but of the revelations of God, for he has said that spiritual knowledge shall be increased in the last days.   Gene brings a lot over (including their attitudes of we know it all) from WWCC.

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

 

[Truthcomber]

Gene:

 

You: Now how was Jesus raised, was it with a different “kind or type” of body, NO, it was not, but was the same body that he had that became uncoruptible and immortal. His same existing body went from mortal to immortal. The same thing applies to those who have died they will be given new flesh and bone bodies that can live forever, and they that are alive at his comming, their bodies will simply become incorruptible and immortal.

Me: Christ was the only one that had his body converted directly into a spirit one when he had ascended into heaven. We inherit like bodies as his. We become adopted sons of God through bonding with his heart and of being of his body.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in…23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Me: We are grapted or adopted as sons of God by putting on Christ in the NT church.  We are not Gods whereas are bodies are converted into spirit ones directly but indirectly through Christ.  We are of his spirit flesh.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Gene,

You wrote: if our bodies were not needed, then there would be no need of a resurrection of them at all.

Me:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism (baptism of the spirit) into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life…7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me: When we are baptized of the holy spirit, our spirit minds are regenerated. If we follow and grow in the holy spirit in our minds, we shall be resurrected spiritually into eternal life at our deaths (Heb 9:27).

Matt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Me: Those alive physically at Christ’s coming must die first like those in Matt 24:41 had, and then their minds and with the heart of Christ in the holy spirit shall resurrect into the third heaven (to receive their new bodies) emphasis in parenthesis mine.

2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise…

New American Standard Bible

2 Cor 6:2 or He says, “AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.” Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION “—

Me: We are resurrection spiritually when we die now (Matt 24:41).

New American Standard Bible

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead (at this time, now) , not even Christ has been raised (at this time);

Me: Emphasis in the parenthesis is mine. This is speaking of the resurrection of us spiritually and of Christ spiritually and bodily.

Verse 16: For if the dead are not raised (now), not even Christ has been raised;

Me: If the dead “are not raised” now and not “will be raised” later. So the dead are raised spiritually when they die. The word now in the parenthesis is my emphasis.

The resurrection of the dead is a spiritual one.  Our bodies come later at Christ’s return.  The first resurrection is when all the rest alive physically must die first physically and then are resurrected spiritually.  All receive their new bodies at this time.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC…. SPIRITS are not “bodies” bodies are visible objects, SPIRIT are what inhabit bodies,   and no scripture say Jesus dumped his body on the way to heaven , that is just you and others speculations, you people offer no scriptural proof.

When the apostles thought he was a spirit that appeared to them after he was resurected, what did he say?, ” a spirit has not FLESH AND BONE  as you see I have”.  And if we are to be in the “likeness of his resurection”,  as scripture say then we also at the resurection will have FLESH AND BONE,  ‘BODIES’  just like  he has. LUK 24:39

This is not to even mention other proofs in scripture about the resurection, go read Ezekiel 7:1-14 , and remember God said it was the “WHOLE HOUSE” OF ISRAEL. See if you can fit that in to your speculations, about us being spirits drifting  around in “arid” places seeking rest’.  Remember what Jesus said about unclean spirits when cast out of the house they were living in.  A spirit is not a body they live in bodies.

Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

[Truthcomber]

Gene,

You: SPIRITS are not “bodies” bodies are visible objects, SPIRIT are what inhabit bodies,

Me: Where did I ever say spirits are bodies? I always said bodies are revealed through the spirit.

I said on this page on NOVEMBER 4, 2018 AT 7:49 AM
“We are given new bodies of the seed (holy spirit) in us.”

You: and no scripture say Jesus dumped his body on the way to heaven , that is just you and others speculations, you people offer no scriptural proof.

Me: I did not say Christ dumped his body on the way to heaven.

This is what I said on this page, NOVEMBER 4, 2018 AT 4:12 PM Quote:
“Christ was the only one that had his body converted directly into a spirit one when he had ascended into heaven. We inherit like bodies as his. We become adopted sons of God through bonding with his heart and of being of his body.”

How could you ever say I said differently? Do you lie to yourself or just to others? Or do you just not understand what others are saying and/or  what the bible is saying.

You: When the apostles thought he was a spirit that appeared to them after he was resurected, what did he say?, ” a spirit has not FLESH AND BONE as you see I have”. And if we are to be in the “likeness of his resurection”, as scripture say then we also at the resurection will have FLESH AND BONE, ‘BODIES’ just like he has. LUK 24:39

Me:
New American Standard Bible
So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Me: Christ became a life giving soul firstly. His glorified body is a reflection of the holy spirit in him. His body became glorified after his ascension into heaven. The first Adam’s body was a reflection of his human spirit. The apostles thought he would be resurrected as a spirit. But he became a life giving spirit after his ascension into heaven and glorified, not before.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

You: This is not to even mention other proofs in scripture about the resurrection, go read Ezekiel 7:1-14 , and remember God said it was the “WHOLE HOUSE” OF ISRAEL.

Me: You quoted the wrong scripture above.

Ezk 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Me: This is obviously addressing the physical resurrection of the people of Israel. Notice “you shall know that I am the Lord”. This means that they have not known the LORD previously to being resurrected from the grave. Also notice “ I will put my spirit in you”. This means that they did not have the holy spirit in them until they were resurrected from the grave.

You: See if you can fit that in to your speculations, about us being spirits drifting around in “arid” places seeking rest’. Remember what Jesus said about unclean spirits when cast out of the house they were living in. A spirit is not a body they live in bodies.

Me: I never said spirits would be drifting around and seeking rest. I said that the resurrected spirits are under the altar of God where they rest.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Me: You are a liar and a manipulator or just not too bright.

[NickHassan]

Hi TC,

No BAPTISM refers to water baptism.

There is only one recorded baptism in the Spirit given to those yet unwashed.

Cornelius and his friends in Acts 10 were given the blessing first but then baptised in water by the order of Peter.

 

All have sinned and are unclean in the sight of God

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for forgiveness of sin.

We are clothed in Christ in water baptism and some were cast from the wedding feast because they were ill dressed.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,

The old body of Jesus was not dumped en route to heaven and neither will the natural bodies of the living when he returns.

’Behold I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed….

For this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality.’

1 Cor 15.51

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..none of that say a ” body” is changed to a spirit or even exchanged for one. It say s this “mortal’ must “put on” immortality. GET IT, the only being changed is from a mortal (BODY) to a immortal (BODY) bodies are not spirits.

Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

TC…..SO you did not say Jesus dumped his body going to heaven? What the difference you still say he is no longer a flesh and bone bodied man, so whats the difference.  Show us how a body is changed to spirit, and still be a “body” of anykind. You force the text to say what in fact it dosen’t say.

Who said you said, spirits were drifting around?,  what I said was that Jesus said that, when an unclean spirit leaves a man it goes about in “arid” places seeking rest.  That what Jesus SAID ,  NOT ME OR YOU.

ALSO, sorry for the mix up with Ezekiel 37:1-14…. but it doesen’t change a thing, if it says the “whole house” of Isreal, that leaves none out, including Moses, or any anointed person evendors Jesus.

My point is, if that is the “whole house” then even those who were later anointed with the spirit of God, and have died,   will also be resurected with their physical bodies again, rather anointed or not, makes no difference. No where in that does it say God puts his spirit in them and , THEN CHANGES THEM INTO A SPIRIT OF ANYKIND, AS YOU INFER  HAPPENS.

YOU HAVEN’T PRODUCE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS JESUS IS NOW A SPIRIT BEING, of anykind,  EVEN IF THE FULLNESS OF GOD DWELLS “IN” HIM.  He does have a life giving spirit in him, but he is a human being and will return as such, Just as he said ” for when THE SON OF MAN comes will he find FAITH ON the earth.”  Many other scriptures also back this up.

Why do you chose to ignor so many scriptures that plainly show the resurection is a Physical resurection, you simply ignore those clear spoken scriptures, treat them as if they are not even in our scriptures.

Like this one,  Rom 8:23….”and not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,  to wittness,  THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY”.   Notice you don’t see the redemption of our spirit there now do you?, but the REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODY”.  Jesus ‘ BODY  was what was resurected,  not his spirit, a resurection is a physical thing, spirit have no need of a resurection from the dead because they don’t die, they are simply in a sleep state until a body is resurected for them to dwell in.

Why not try to get that straight in you mind first before jumping all around trying to find something that fits you own personal dogmas?

Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,

Did anyone claim that receiving a spiritual body makes you a spirit?

Try learning from scripture and put your own ideas away.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Nick,

You got that absolutely right.

[Truthcomber]

Gene,

Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

New American Standard Bible
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Rev 1:14 (KJV) His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Me: This is not a flesh and bone body.

 

You: SO you did not say Jesus dumped his body going to heaven? What the difference you still say he is no longer a flesh and bone bodied man, so what’s the difference. Show us how a body is changed to spirit, and still be a “body” of any kind. You force the text to say what in fact it doesn’t say.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self …

Me: The difference is Christ still has a body and is not a spirit without a body as you are trying to imply that I said. His body was translated into a different body as the above verses testifies to. He was  glorified in heaven after his ascension (John 17:5 above) and not on his resurrection from the grave. . You don’t understand what the bible says.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood always go together.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (2532 also) blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Me: The emphasis in the parenthesis is mine.
Click on the link below. Then click on 2532 above “and”
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-50.htm
Definition: and, even, also
Usage: and, even, also, namely.

Me: flesh is exclusive of blood. Therefore flesh can stand alone,  and by itself cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Blood by itself cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So your bonehead theory that Christ was flesh and bone when he was resurrected and glorified is absurd.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Comment: Flesh and bone does need blood to survive period. Christ ate food (Luke 24:40-43) with the apostles after he was resurrected from the dead. So he must have had organs also, not just flesh and bones.

[Truthcomber]

Gene,

You: Who said you said, spirits were drifting around?, what I said was that Jesus said that, when an unclean spirit leaves a man it goes about in “arid” places seeking rest. That what Jesus SAID , NOT ME OR YOU.

Me: Why even bring that up unless you inferred that I meant that those resurrected spiritually were drifting around like the demons are. Another lie.

You: ALSO, sorry for the mix up with Ezekiel 37:1-14…. but it doesen’t change a thing, if it says the “whole house” of Isreal, that leaves none out, including Moses, or any anointed person evendors Jesus.

Me: That leaves Moses out. The whole house of Israel here is  those not of the kingdom yet. Did I not show you this. The first resurrection had occurred prior to this.

Again:
This is a prophecy for after the first resurrection.

Ezk 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Me: This is obviously addressing the physical resurrection of the people of Israel. Notice ““you shall know that I am the Lord”. This means that they have not known the LORD previously to being resurrected from the grave. Also notice “ I will put my spirit in you”. This means that they did not have the holy spirit in them until they were resurrected from the grave. Finally notice “our hope is lost: we are cut off”.  These are not people confident of being saved.

You: My point is, if that is the “whole house” then even those who were later anointed with the spirit of God, and have died, will also be resurected with their physical bodies again, rather anointed or not, makes no difference. No where in that does it say God puts his spirit. in them… and ,

Me: Absolutely not. Read my last comments above ten times more.

You:…, THEN CHANGES THEM INTO A SPIRIT OF ANYKIND, AS YOU INFER HAPPENS.

Me: I did not remotely say anyone was changed to a spirit.

Again:
Resv 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (spirits) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Me: Emphasis in the parenthesis is mine. Our minds of the holy spirit (Romans 8:27 our minds in the holy spirit) are resurrected first and then obtain new bodies that correspond with the holy spirit. I did not say anything about our bodies changing into spirits. We have only one spirit, the holy spirit in the end (Eph 4:4). Our minds in the spirit are resurrected into heaven first. Then we are given new bodies of the holy spirit.

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