Interdependence of Father and Son

[Proclaimer]

Hi Berean. There are some pearls in your last post. Your point about salvation and one being like God to filfill that is something I dont think I have thought about before.

Yes, salvation was planned right at the beginning as you day because it would be inevitiable that some beings would rebel. Free will is a must if you want sons instead of robots.

But I would like to add that the whole reason for creation is because of the Son. God created all things through him and for him. Further, God’s redemptive plan from the foundation of the world is also through him as you rightly point out.

We are offered to be born from above and become Sons. Our existence is tied up in The Son’s existence. He is the life. All creation exists because of the Son and for him.

[Proclaimer]

Hi LU.

I can’t provide a source for prototype as I wrongly assumed it was rooted in the word for firstborn despite both having the same root ‘proto’.

That said, I stll believe that he is the prototype. He is the ‘first type’, that is, the first Son. Those born from above will be like him. The same type of being. The original of which we will be like.

[Berean]

Hi Proclaimer

The Son has accepted that everything be given into his hands for the creation of the universe, for the plan of redemption and for judgment.
THE SON IS WORTHY OF ALL THESE TITLES MENTIONED IN ISAIAH
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion will rest on his shoulder, and he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (ISAIAH 9:6)

Shalom

[GeneBalthrop]

LU……So Jesus was lying when he said (not me)…..“this is eternal life , that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” true GOD……., ACCORDING TO YOU,  he meant to say,  “US” the onLy true “GOD’S”.     Should we all erase our scriptures and change them it to fit your interputation?  Perhaps you have found another interputation somewhere , inlighten us please!

Peace and love to you and yours LU……….gene

 

[Lightenup]

Gene,

Jesus said that we are to know two persons to have eternal life, one is the Father and the other is the Son. Please don’t pretend that Jesus isn’t the elohim who is our one Lord.

[Lightenup]

Berean,

Yes, we are making progress 🙂

You said:

The Son has accepted that everything be given into his hands for the creation of the universe, for the plan of redemption and for judgment.
THE SON IS WORTHY OF ALL THESE TITLES MENTIONED IN ISAIAH
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion will rest on his shoulder, and he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (ISAIAH 9:6)

Amen to that, the Son also has the title of Yahweh our Righteousness and the God who will inherit all nations. Do you agree?

[Lightenup]

Proclaimer,

You said:

I can’t provide a source for prototype as I wrongly assumed it was rooted in the word for firstborn despite both having the same root ‘proto’.

That said, I stll believe that he is the prototype. He is the ‘first type’, that is, the first Son. Those born from above will be like him. The same type of being. The original of which we will be like.

Thanks for clarifying that prototype is not from protokos.

I disagree that the Son is a prototype of any other type of sons. No other sons are just like him. A prototype would imply others of the same type but the Son is an only son of his type, modeled after His  Father. The Son was not created, nor born again, both which bring a sort of sonship that the Son does not share.

The Father is the prototype of the Son, the Son is not a prototype of anything. We can be like Him but not in every way. A biological son is not the same type of son as an adopted son, for instance.

[Lightenup]

Proclaimer,

You said:

But I would like to add that the whole reason for creation is because of the Son. God created all things through him and for him. Further, God’s redemptive plan from the foundation of the world is also through him as you rightly point out.

We are offered to be born from above and become Sons. Our existence is tied up in The Son’s existence. He is the life. All creation exists because of the Son and for him.

That sounds like the Father is not independent of the Son but rather they are both interdependent to each other.

The Son may also be necessary for the Father to act in another dimension and relate to another dimension but that is speculating. I don’t believe that the Father came to earth or will come to earth. I believe that it was the Son who spoke to Adam in the garden.

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

You: LU……So Jesus was lying when he said (not me)…..“this is eternal life , that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” true GOD…….,

ACCORDING TO YOU,  he meant to say,  “US” the onLy true “GOD’S”.  

Me: Gene the above is only your corrupted carnal-minded understanding.

GOD HAS THE POWER TO BYLOCATE AND MULTIPLY HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HE PLEASES AND AT THE SAME TIME REMAINS 

ONE.

THE FACT THAT GOD, BY HIS OWN WORD, HIS OWN SUBSTANCE, JESUS’ SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN, PHYSICALLY SPEAKING, AS THE SOURCE

HE IS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION. I REPEAT:

PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED IN ALL! WELL CLEAR IN

Romans 1:20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice:

ATTENTION Gene, YOU QUITE EASILY BE LIKE ONE OF THESE WHO DETAIN THE TRUTH OF GOD!

 19Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 

WATCH IT, Gene, it could be well manifested in you. Keep on reading and accept the truth:

20For the invisible things of him,

from the creation of the world,

are clearly seen,

being understood by the things that are made;

HERE IT COMES Gene,

his eternal power also,

and divinity:

so that they are inexcusable. 

ANSWER Gene, is the above a clear reference to 

JESUS, SINCE ALL BY HIM, to

GOD or BOTH TO

JESUS and GOD? JUST TO MAKE IT MORE CERTAIN READ:

John17: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

ANSWER Gene what the phrase

‘OVER ALL FLESH’

ACTUALLY IS REFERRING TO!

ISN’T IT THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE PHYSICAL CREATION?

YES or NO PLEASE!  

YOUR ANSWER IS HEREUNDER! READ:

that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 

OK Gene, GOD THE FATHER GAVE THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF

THE PHYSICAL CREATION TO JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, 

John1:3 All THINGS were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

NOW BACK TO ROMANS 1 FOR MORE TRUTH:

21Because that, when they knew God,

ANSWER Gene,

HOW DID THEY KNOW GOD? HE HAD TO BE PHYSICAL AND TANGIBLE NO? 

BUT ONLY AS JESUS! BUT THEY REJECTED HIM, Read:

they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks;

asserted by Jesus in

John17:25 Just Father, the world hath not known thee; ….

Now read the end of this caption:

but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. 

22For professing themselves to be wise,

they became fools. 

Attention Gene, OR ELSE YOU BECOME A FOOL!

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT TO ACCEPT THAT GOD WAS /IS PHYSICALLY ON EARTH BOTH

AS  JESUS

First when HE CAME AS A HUMAN NOT OF EARTH, BUT OF HEAVEN, and

then, after He glorified on the cross, justified as THE ONLY SOVEREIGN SPIRIT in the entire process of creation to be clear again in

JESUS’SPIRIT “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD,

BY WHOM GOD COMMENCED AND CREATED THE ENTIRE CREATION,

JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE. Here it is read:

Jude 1:4 For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men,

turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness,

and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things,

that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,

did afterwards destroy them that believed not:

You: LU……So Jesus was lying when he said (not me)…..“this is eternal life , that they might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” true GOD…….,

OK Gene, let’s REVEAL more truth since you are not in the position to see

THE TRUTH!  

John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father,

the hour is come,

glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

The above, Gene, confirms that  both the Father and Jesus, ATTENTION PLEASE;

GLORIFIED THEMSELVES AND IN EACHOTHER IN 

ONE INSTANT! ASSERTED BY JESUS BY HIS OWN WORDS:

‘THE HOUR IS COME’

glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

THE ABOVE IS CLARIFIED ALREADY AND WE ARE AWARE THAT

JESUS IS THE ONLY SOVEREIGN RULER OF THE ENTIRE CREATION, Well clear in

JUDE 1:4 ABOVE.

SO LET’S CARRY ON READING.

John 17:2 that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.3Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

BUT ALL OF THE ABOVE TRUTHS WILL BE DISCUSSED IN THE NEXT POST.

IN THE MEANTIME ENJOY THE TRUTH!

UNLESS YOU PRODUCE SCRIPTURE AND PROVE OTHERWISE!

OF WHICH I AM CONVINCED THAT YOU WON’T.

IN THE SAME WAY, Jodi does!

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[Berean]

Hi LU

You: Amen to that, the Son also has the title of Yahweh our Righteousness and the God who will inherit all nations. Do you agree? 

Me:

Yes YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND THE GOD WHO INHERIT ALL NATIONS….under the authority of the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall live again.
[23] But each in his order: Christ as the firstfruits; then those who belong to Christ at his coming.
[24] Then comes the end, when he has delivered the kingdom to God the Father; when he has overthrown all rule, all authority and all power.
[25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
[27] For he has laid everything under his feet. But when he says, all things are subject to him, it is manifest that he is excepted, the one who submitted all things to him.
[28] And when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all. 

Rev.11:14
The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe is soon coming.
[15] And the seventh angel sounded the trumpet; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and HE will reign forever and ever. 

🙏

[Lightenup]

Hi Berean,

Thank you for your answer. Please answer this now that you have had more time to think about it:

I hypothesize that the Father is interdependent with the Son in being the one true God, not independent from the Son in being the one true God.

Do you agree Berean?

[Berean]

Hi LU

hypothesize that the Father is interdependent with the Son in being the one true God, not independent from the Son in being the one true God.

Do you agree Berean? 

Me

The Father had needed, needs the Son for all things and so yes, HE IS (as the one true God) INTERDEPENDENT ON THE SON ,BECAUSE HE IS A JUST AND GOOD GOD.

 

[GeneBalthrop]

Carmel……Truth is you simply don’t believe God , nor what he says ,  (not me) ……YOU SHALL HAVE “NO” , “OTHER” GOD BESIDES ME”,  NOR SHALL YOU MAKE “ANY” “IMAGE OF ME IN HEAVEN OR EARTH”…… COMMANDMENT number 1 

How bold you are   how breave you speek, in defiance of what our God and Jesus Christ  “plainly” said.  well we wilall see how that truns out for you, won’t we? 

Peace and love to you and your……….gene

 

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer: But I would like to add that the whole reason for creation is because of the Son. God created all things through him and for him. Further, God’s redemptive plan from the foundation of the world is also through him as you rightly point out. We are offered to be born from above and become Sons. Our existence is tied up in The Son’s existence. He is the life. All creation exists because of the Son and for him.

LU: That sounds like the Father is not independent of the Son but rather they are both interdependent to each other.

Your problem then is not me but scripture then.

All Things Were Created Through Him and for Him.

He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

[Proclaimer]

I disagree that the Son is a prototype of any other type of sons. No other sons are just like him. A prototype would imply others of the same type but the Son is an only son of his type, modeled after His  Father. The Son was not created, nor born again, both which bring a sort of sonship that the Son does not share.

Of course you disagree because you have a doctrine to protect. So who is the first type then? The first Son?

Scripture teaches us that we will be like him and have a body like his. We also know that he is the Son and we are sons. Indeed then, he is the prototype, the first of his kind (Son) and we will become sons. This fits the definition of a prototype as he is the complete image of God and we are made in that image of God.

Whereas, for you, you see Jesus as part of the God substance / committee and by extension, miss out on precious truths regarding the son of God and what it means to be a son of God and what the true inheritance is for the sons of God.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Lightenup]

Proclaimer,

You asked:

So who is the first type then? The first Son?

Adam is the first son that human sons are modeled after.

[Proclaimer]

Yes, Adam was / is a prototype too.
I guess all species had a prototype.

But, all in Adam die, all in Christ shall live.
If you agree that the first Adam was a prototype, then why not the final Adam?

[GeneBalthrop]

To all…….What Jesus is,  is the finish product of what God the Father started with Adam and Eve.  Jesus is what God had in mind from the very beginning of his creation of all mankind.  Jesus is God the Fathers word (of prophesy) that came into being , as a flesh and blood human being, when he was born on this earth.  He was Baptized and recieved into him the Holy Spirit of God the Father, which is the “seed” of God , and became a begotten Son of God.   Exactly as we must also. 

• All those who have the “cristios” (anointing spirit), of the Father abiding “in” them , are “now”, the Sons of God even “now”.  If the Fathers Seed (Holy Spirit) abides “IN”, you have been born again INTO the Family of God. 
• You have become a “brother” of Jesus  christ , who  is the “first” born into the Kingdom of God, from humanity. 
• Jesus is the “way”, the way we must all inter into the Kingdom of God, and it is the “exact” same way he did. 

The reason Scripture say Jesus is the “first and the last”, is because the last man must enter in the kingdom of God,  the exact  same way Jesus,  the first did.  

God the Father is “against” all who say Jesus “preexisted” his birth on this earth, as well as all who preach and worship him as their GOD.  Jesus will out of his own mouth reject them at his return  just as 2ths2, shows.  

When that takes place,  then the rejected Churches,  will turn on him and call him the Antichrist, the person they have been talking about for century’s , that was to come before the return of Jesus and do mricales and decieve the nations. It will be the modern day “Christain” Churches, that will turn on him because,  he will reject them and their lies about him and the Father.  Jesus will strip these false churhes of their wealth and power, and they won’t take it lying down, they will turn on him,  exactly as the religious Jewish Scribes and Pharisses did at his first comming.   Jesus said (not me), Matt 7:22, 23…..  “many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name,? And in your name cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?  And then I will profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.”

When that takes place what do you think the Modern day apostate churches, like the Catholic,  the Protestant, and the thousands of other false churches, out there will do?  They will turn on Jesus and brand him as the Anitchrist, who they have lied about comming first,  before Jesus does,  for Nearly 2000 years.  The Churchs today have already been  predesposed to do that,  by their present day false prophedic teachings.

The words of Rev.,  that says….. “come out of her my people, that you recieve not of her pluges, ” has never been more inportant then today. IMO

Peace and love to you all and yours………..gene

 

[Berean]

 Gene 

You

God the Father is “against” all who say Jesus “preexisted” his birth on this earth, …..

Me

BIG LIE Gene

 

[Proclaimer]

Adam is the first son that human sons are modeled after.

Correct. But he is not the only prototype.

Some humans will be modelled after the final Adam.

So the first Adam is not the only prototype. He is for some however. Are you arguing that he is your only prototype? If so, then you need to be born from above.,

Flesh first then Spirit.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.…

Is Adam your only prototype?

[Author]

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