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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,16:14) Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,00:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2013,18:49)
Mike says:Quote Isn't it said that God POSSESSES wisdom? How can God possess HIMSELF? This is a royal example of how Mike talks double talk. When we talk about this verse, talking about 'wisdom':
Prov 8:22
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Mike will not acknowledge that the LORD 'possessed' this wisdom but relentlously insists that the LORD 'created' this wisdom and forms a doctrine that the son was created from this.
Now on this thread, he is claiming that the LORD 'possessed' wisdom, a wisdom that is not the Father. hmmm
Hi LU,AMEN
Peace sister.
Shall we share the WHOLE story with Abe, Kathi?I believe the “wisdom” mentioned in Proverbs 8 is God's firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. And I'll share with Abe what I shared with Kathi the last time we discussed the matter.
Proverbs 8:22 NET Bible ©
The Lord created 1 me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.And this is the NETNotes information for footnote #1 above:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.Are you with me so far, Abe? Do you understand that the earlier English translators THOUGHT there had to be another Hebrew root for the word “qanah” that meant “to create”, but they weren't sure, so they opted for “possessed”.
Ready for the clincher?
…….the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.”
Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”……..
What are they talking about, Abe?
Proverbs 8:23
Ages ago I was appointed, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.The bolded word “appointed” in the verse above is the Hebrew word “nissakhti”. It is used only here, and in Psalm 2:6, where it refers to the coronation of a king.
Proverbs 8:24 NET Bible ©
When there were no deep oceans I was born, 2 when there were no springs overflowing with water;Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.” Here is the strongest support for the translation of קָנָה (qanah) as “created” in v. 22.Proverbs 8:25 NIV ©
before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,Are you able to see how the multiple phrases “was given birth” argue for a translation of “created” in verse 22……….. and AGAINST a translation of “possessed”?
But was “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense, actually CREATED by God? Did God “give birth” to “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense? Highly doubtful, IMO.
But the passage does speak about something that was created as the FIRST of God's works, right? And we know that Jesus was God's “firstborn”, the “firstborn of all creation”, and the “beginning of the creation by God”, right? (Heb 1:16, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14)
The passage also speaks of a king being appointed “ages ago”, “before the beginning of the earth”. Compare that statement with Psalm 2:6-9. (Remember that the Hebrew word “nissakhti” is used ONLY in Ps 2:6 and Prov 8:23. Could this unique word be referring to the coronation of the same person in both verses?)
So I believe (as do many others) that Jesus is the one to whom Proverbs 8 refers, and that he is METAPHORICALLY called “wisdom”. And in that sense, the “Wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24) is Jesus, and Jesus was created.
But on the other hand, since our discussion was concerning wisdom in its LITERAL sense, I don't believe it is a “part of God”, but something that God and many others POSSESS.
Now that you know the WHOLE story behind Kathi's vicious, slandering words, perhaps I'll get an “Amen” from you, and an apology from her.
Hi Mike,Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”……..[/color]
What are they talking about, Abe?
But on the other hand, since our discussion was concerning wisdom in its LITERAL sense, I don't believe it is a “part of God”, but something that God and many others POSSESS.
(1) Are you saying Wisdom is not part of God?
Col.1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Heb1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty.
2Cor.4:4 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty.
1Cor.1:24 But to them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Wisdom OF God. Of God
Yes I give you an AMEN on your research on wisdom.
Peace brother.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2013,01:33) Abe, Quote Spirit of God God gave this to Jesus after the resurrection it was the Promise he had made to Christ. Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16 It seems you conclude Yawheh waited until after Jesus was resurrected to give him the Spirit.
That is not correct as the results of living according to the Spirit is not sinning, Galatians 5:22-23, even while being tempted as it common to man, just as Jesus Christ did, Hebrews 4:15. By his fruit it is clear he had the Spirit while he lived his mortality.
He did not have the power give the Spirit to others until after his death, John 16:7.
Hi Kerwin,He did not have the power give the Spirit to others until after his death, John 16:7.
It seems you conclude Yawheh waited until after Jesus was resurrected to give him the Spirit.
Yes; (1) After he was baptized, he received the Spirit,
Jn.1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bore record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it stayed on him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost
:34 And I saw, and bore record that this is the Son of God.Jn.3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that HAS the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease
He did not have the power to GIVE the Spirit to others until after his death, John 16:7.
(2) Acts2:32 This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED of the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear.Phl.2:8 And being found in fashion as a man,(Jesus) he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. 9Why God also has highly exalted him, and GIVEN him a Name which is ABOVE every Name: 10That at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
Baptism of Jesus
(1) Bride Rev.21:2 And I John saw the holy city, NEW Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is WITH men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
After Jesus Death
(2) Wife Rev.21:9 And there came to me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the WIFE of the Lamb.
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. 11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. :22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God the Almighty, and the Lamb, are the temple thereof. 23And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamp thereof is the Lamb. 24And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. 25And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there): 26and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it: 27and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.Rom.8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Peace brother.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,21:38) Can wisdom be possessed and brought forth from within…yes!
“Brought forth from within”? Will you show me a scriptural example of when wisdom was ever “brought forth from within”? (Oh, and I'm speaking of LITERAL wisdom – not Jesus, who is metaphorically called things like “wisdom”, “word”, “lamb”, etc.)Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,21:38) God always possessed wisdom!
If we are talking about wisdom in its LITERAL sense, as Abe and I are, then I agree that wisdom is a POSSESSION OF God, and that He has always possessed wisdom.On the other hand, if we are talking about wisdom as one of Jesus' metaphorical names, then I disagree. Jesus was created by God. God did not always possess the Son He at one point brought into existence.
So as you can clearly see, you've accused me falsely – once again. I am not “talking out of both sides of my mouth” when I say the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 (Jesus) was created, but “wisdom”, in its LITERAL sense, was always possessed by God.
I believe I have clearly explained my views about the wisdom in Proverbs 8, versus wisdom in a literal sense. And this clear explanation shows that I said exactly what I believe, and was not being “sneaky”.
You owe me an apology for the first two false accusations you've made against me on this thread. And you'll owe me another one once I explain the false accusation you made against me today.
And you definitely need to stop calling me “sneaky”. You are bearing false witness against me – which is against the rules of this site, right?
Quote (abe @ Mar. 07 2013,21:53) Hi Mike, Is the Holy Spirit God?
No Abe.The Holy Spirit is OF God.
Just as your spirit is not entirely “you”, God's Spirit is not entirely “Him”. Your spirit is a part OF “you” – and God's Spirit is a part OF “Him”.
This is how I understand it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,22:16) And here is a third item where Mike has done double talk: He just quoted this in his post above this:
Quote Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.”However in another thread, he is pushing the idea that begotten means to conceive and not given birth to.
Is that accusation accurate, Kathi?Or is it more accurate to say that I pointed out to you that a father's part in begetting an offspring is the act of CONCEPTION?
I am using this argument to combat your unsupported claim that Jesus existed within the Father before the Father “begot” him – as if the Father was really a mother, and Jesus was alive in her womb before she actually gave birth to him. (Because that IS the earthly example you use to support your claim, right?)
So yes, the term “beget”, from a father's standpoint, refers to the actual conception of the child. A child doesn't live inside the womb of a father until the father passes the child through his womb, right?
It seems you owe me yet another apology.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,01:44) Hi Mike, And the Spirit of Christ is?
Of Christ? Or Of God?
Of Christ.Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,01:44) According to you the wife is God.
No. The wife is the church of faithful followers.Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,02:17) Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16
The PARTICULAR seed discussed by Paul in that passage is Jesus.Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,02:17) What is also the WIFE of the Lamb.
Answered in the last post.Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,02:17) Are you saying Holy Jerusalem is GOD?
Nope.Abe, I very rarely have any idea where you are coming up with this claims – or how the scriptures you post even correspond to the claims.
How about addressing my posts, instead of just continuing to ask more and more seemingly unrelated questions.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,02:31) Kerwin, I know, I was just trying to show Mike something as He follows Origen, I think!?
2B,There were more words from Origen in your post than I've previously read in my life.
Still, I didn't see anything in those words that would lead me to believe the Holy Spirit is the Son of God…… nor did I see any words that even led me to believe ORIGEN believed such a thing.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) We are made in God's image and that image is our inner self.
Where can I read about that “inner self” part in scripture?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) God is spirit and you cannot see spirit.
Humans generally cannot see spirit beings. God does, on rare occasions, open the eyes of human beings so that they CAN see spirit beings. (2 Kings 6:17, Numbers 22:31)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) But it does not have the body that we have.
Agreed. We have flesh bodies. Spirits have spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:42-50)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) I do agree with you. People will use those words to say that we cannot understand everything to justify false doctrine.
Then you'll understand if I don't accept your seemingly unscriptural claims about the Holy Spirit being the Son of God – just because you say the Spirit showed you this, right?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Is there scripture that tells us God's Son IS a part of the being of God Himself? If not, then why wouldn't you just automatically assume the default understanding that sons are different beings than their fathers? After all, God surely knew how we humans would understand the words “father” and “son” when He told us about His Son, right? Was He trying to trick us or something?
When I pray… I pray to the Father God through the Holy Spirit Son of God who should be in us.
I don't believe you actually addressed the points in the quote box above, 2B. Please do so.peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,22:16) And here is a third item where Mike has done double talk: He just quoted this in his post above this:
Quote Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.”However in another thread, he is pushing the idea that begotten means to conceive and not given birth to.
Is that accusation accurate, Kathi?Or is it more accurate to say that I pointed out to you that a father's part in begetting an offspring is the act of CONCEPTION?
I am using this argument to combat your unsupported claim that Jesus existed within the Father before the Father “begot” him – as if the Father was really a mother, and Jesus was alive in her womb before she actually gave birth to him. (Because that IS the earthly example you use to support your claim, right?)
So yes, the term “beget”, from a father's standpoint, refers to the actual conception of the child. A child doesn't live inside the womb of a father until the father passes the child through his womb, right?
It seems you owe me yet another apology.
But what does the NET Bible translators say was the begetting of the Firstborn…a birth or a conception even though it was by a Father?You sure want a lot of apologies for exposing your double mindedness. Not sure why. Here is your apology, “sorry it hurts when you are exposed as a double minded man.”
Let it lead you towards correction. Rebuke is good for those who are wise.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) Mike……….Go back to page 183 and answer ALL the Yes or No questions please
There are no questions addressed to ME on that page, Gene. If you would like to ask ME those same questions, then post them ONE AT A TIME in a post that IS addressed to ME. (And remember that I already answered #1 – even though it wasn't addressed to me.)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) Why can't you understand the Spirit of God does make us the Sons and daughters of God.
Didn't I just not only agree with that statement, but also post a scripture that supported it? How then do you assume I “don't understand” it?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2013,10:26) So it can be said that The Holy Spirit is also the Son of God in that “sense”. Because it produces a Son of God…….
Hmmmm………… Can God Himself “produce a son of God”? Perhaps the Father is also the Son of God “in that sense”? (See how silly that “point” is?)Gene, do you believe that, BEFORE HUMANS WERE EVER CREATED, God and His “Holy Spirit SON” dwelled in heaven?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of God has ALWAYS BEEN “the SON of God”? YES or NO?
(Because THAT'S what 2B and Kerwin are claiming.)
As for the DNA stuff, I haven't a clue what you're saying – and frankly don't care. If you are trying to make a SCRIPTURAL point with it, you are failing – because I surely don't see your point.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,12:26) (1) Are you saying Wisdom is not part of God?
I thought I already answered that question.Wisdom, in its LITERAL sense, is something God POSSESSES – but I wouldn't consider it to be a “part of” the Being of God Almighty.
You can also POSSESS wisdom, but I wouldn't call wisdom a “part of” you.
As for Proverbs 8, I believe it is speaking about Jesus, and metaphorically calling him “wisdom”. And even in that case, NO, I don't believe Jesus is a “part of” God. I believe what the scriptures say, that he is a “Son of” God – not a “part of” God.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,11:17) Do you think I am off my rocker? Abe, I meant to say “No”, I look forward to reading your posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 08 2013,16:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,22:16) And here is a third item where Mike has done double talk: He just quoted this in his post above this:
Quote Footnote #2 says:
The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.”However in another thread, he is pushing the idea that begotten means to conceive and not given birth to.
Is that accusation accurate, Kathi?Or is it more accurate to say that I pointed out to you that a father's part in begetting an offspring is the act of CONCEPTION?
I am using this argument to combat your unsupported claim that Jesus existed within the Father before the Father “begot” him – as if the Father was really a mother, and Jesus was alive in her womb before she actually gave birth to him. (Because that IS the earthly example you use to support your claim, right?)
So yes, the term “beget”, from a father's standpoint, refers to the actual conception of the child. A child doesn't live inside the womb of a father until the father passes the child through his womb, right?
It seems you owe me yet another apology.
But what does the NET Bible translators say was the begetting of the Firstborn…a birth or a conception even though it was by a Father?You sure want a lot of apologies for exposing your double mindedness. Not sure why. Here is your apology, “sorry it hurts when you are exposed as a double minded man.”
Let it lead you towards correction. Rebuke is good for those who are wise.
Okay Kathi,Let's see who is really “double talking”.
1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO?
2. When John tells us that Jesus gave us the right to be sons of God who are “born of God”, do you imagine that we who are to be “born of God” live inside His womb for a while before He gives birth to us like a woman would? YES or NO?
(Btw, I notice how you haven't addressed a single one of my points: about Moses and Cyrus, about this begetting thing, about the fact that the evidence indicates a translation of “created” in Prov 8:22, not “possessed”, etc.
Why do you keep ignoring the part of my posts where I explain myself, proving your accusations to be false, and instead just keep making even MORE accusations?
)Kerwin and Abe,
Greek analysis:
'The right hand therefore of God exalted and promise of the Holy Spirit received from the Father poured this which you both behold and hear.'
http://biblos.com/acts/2-33.htm
I have gone into the strong words individually with this.
To me this is just saying that the Holy Spirit was poured out, not that Jesus RECEIVED the Holy Spirit ONLY at being seated at God's right hand side.
————–
Jesus breathed on the Disciples and they received the Holy Spirit BEFORE He ascended.
John 20: 19It was the evening of the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Jesus came and stood among them. He told them, “Peace be with you.” 20After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side, and when they saw the Lord, the disciples were overjoyed. 21Jesus told them again, “Peace be with you. Just as the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” 22When he had said this, he breathed on them and told them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive people’s sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people’s sins, they are retained.”
No rush 2B.
We have once again strayed WAY off topic, huh?
But this is now one of my favorite threads. There sure is a “pot luck” of ideas out there – some I never would have imagined in a million years.But that is why we're on this site, right – to talk about scriptural understandings, and sort out the truth of the matter?
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 08 2013,00:51) Quote (abe @ Mar. 08 2013,19:17) Hi Mike, Spirit of God God gave this to Jesus after the resurrection it was the Promise he had made to Christ. Who is the SEED of Abraham. Gal.3:16
What is also the WIFE of the Lamb. Holy Jerusalem.
Is.62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burns.
2And the Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory: and you shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
3You shall also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
4You shall no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall your land any more be termed Desolate: but you shall be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah: for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be married.
5For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your SONS marry YOU: and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.
Are you saying Holy Jerusalem is GOD?
Peace brother….
Hi Abe,Good Job!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Thanks
Peace brother.
Mike,
Quote 1. Am I correct that a father's part in the begetting process is the act of conception – when the seed impregnates the egg? YES or NO? Sometimes.
Quote ABSTRACT
Focuses on British geneticists' discovery of a boy whose body is derived in part from an unfertilized egg. Implications of the discovery into the control of human development and the evolutionary changes that made sex essential for mammalian reproduction; Examination of the DNA sequences all along the boy's chromosomes in all his cells; Significance of the case on the study of parthenogenecity.parthenogenecity is somewhat common in living things though the human chimera above is unique case among humanity.
My source is here.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,11:13) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) God is spirit and you cannot see spirit.
Humans generally cannot see spirit beings. God does, on rare occasions, open the eyes of human beings so that they CAN see spirit beings. (2 Kings 6:17, Numbers 22:31)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 08 2013,03:37) But it does not have the body that we have.
Agreed. We have flesh bodies. Spirits have spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:42-50)Thanks for those scriptures.
Just one thing : It says in 1st Cor that the dead will be raised as a different type of body than it was (different than what we have now which is earthly and inherited from Adam) where the next will be changed to resemble the risen Jesus, imperishable and powerful and embodying the spirit. it does not however say as you just did that “spirits have spiritual bodies.” 1st Cor is talking about what will be for those who are risen from the dead.
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Is there scripture that tells us God's Son IS a part of the being of God Himself? If not, then why wouldn't you just automatically assume the default understanding that sons are different beings than their fathers? After all, God surely knew how we humans would understand the words “father” and “son” when He told us about His Son, right? Was He trying to trick us or something?
I'll put together all of those scriptures, soon.
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