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Hi Mike,
All that i am saying is that when we study the word of God through the power of the spirit then it will make sense spiritually, however, when we begin to study 'like a man' using scholars points of views, etc, then we are pushing aside God's wisdom, and we are using instead the wisdom of man.
One chapter which means a lot to me is Jeremiah 17
Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his arm,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.
“Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it?
“I the LORD search the mind
and try the heart,
to give to every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his doings.”
Like the partridge that gathers a brood which she did not hatch,
so is he who gets riches but not by right;
in the midst of his days they will leave him,
and at his end he will be a fool.
A glorious throne set on high from the beginning
is the place of our sanctuary.
O LORD, the hope of Israel,
all who forsake thee shall be put to shame;
those who turn away from thee shall be written in the earth,
for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.
Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed;
save me, and I shall be saved;
for thou art my praise.
Behold, they say to me,
“Where is the word of the LORD?
Let it come!”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,13:07) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 27 2012,02:38) YES, I accept this fact but,
It is the spirit which teaches us truth – not a theologian!Would you put all of your trust in a theologian, or in God?
Where did you learn your doctrine? From Greek Scholars?
Hi 2B,I learned my doctrine from scripture and from answered prayers for spiritual guidance.
I am happy to hear you accept the fact that, grammatically speaking, John 1:1c can be translated as “God” or “a god”.
Now we only have to decide, based on context of the scriptures as a whole, which meaning John had in mind when he wrote that verse.
You prefer the “God” translation, while I think “a god” makes much more sense on many levels.
More to come………….
Why does it make more sense to you?Whichever way that you look at it, if you just take those words alone – “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God” – that sounds like truth.
I hope that you see that.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 28 2012,18:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2012,03:20) 2besee…………..I agree with much you have said , Except that Jesus is A God, and i am not sure if you are saying that really, I do believe God who is a Spirit and was truly in Jesus. But i also believe becasue God is in a Person or Angel or demigod , never make that person a true GOD themselves. Jesus would not have said He could do nothing of himself if he were a true God of anykind. I think we are in agreement but am not completley sure Brother. I also do believe it is the Sprit of God that teaches us what is true though, it is by His spirit of Truth we are able to precieve what is true and what is not true. Jesus said no you not that you shall all be taught by God
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene
Hi Gene,I believe that there is one true God – YHVH – and that there is no other 'God' besides him. Just as the OT says.
When it says that in the beginning was the word, I have come to believe over time, and since making this thread, that the word which was with God, and was God, was God's own word, a part of God, much like our own word is a part of our being and is us, so that is what I believe John 1:1 is meaning. I believe it is a correct translation and i believe that adding the 'A' and changing it to 'a god' is WRONG. It is making it seem that it is speaking about two separate beings or two seperate Gods (the word and God being two separate beings) when I believe that they are not. I believe what it says – that the word was with God and the word was God – the word being God's own word.
To say that there is only one God which is YHVH and to then apply that biblical rule to the verse in John 1:1 is correct I believe.
So there is only one God over all, with his own spirit and his own word and then there is the Son, Jesus Christ.
2besee………..I agree with that post also, i believe that John 1:1 is speaking of “ONE GOD” only and His word is Part of Him Just as our words are Part of Us also. You have that right brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
2bb
Quote All that i am saying is that when we study the word of God through the power of the spirit then it will make sense spiritually, however, when we begin to study 'like a man' using scholars points of views, etc, then we are pushing aside God's wisdom, and we are using instead the wisdom of man. are you not trowing away the candy and eat the raping paper
in this view of yours all we know is of men ,letters,grammar,books,translations,and what not
so the only way we can find and understand what is the truth of God is through his own words,and by eliminating men(devil hand) intervention in it ,so it as to be all the scriptures that have to be in lign with Gods own will and action and revelations,
men cannot conclud that it is in their own spirit of understanding that the truth of God lays ,God has his own will and mind ,soul,and above all power,what Gods says to his prophets his the truth ,but not all have accepted that truth and so altered it ,
and that is were we stand and that we have to clear up,but not with schollars then with whom or what ,???
we are not experts in old Greek,or Hebrew,Arameic,and other???
but with the reading of Gods words then we can if we pay attention see, understand, that their are misleading words,because they are contradicting other parts of scriptures ,and under no circonstance God can be seen as the liar,only men can be declared a liar,right
this is what Mike try to show you ,and also keep in mind that God does not NEED US we need him.
Terraricca okay I will relent – I have done thousands of word studies myself but in doing so I lost the spirit.
So let us now get back to topic.
Okay, last night I was reading 1John, 1-10 and it starts off with a similar kind of opening to John 1 – it is speaking about the light being God (the Father) and remember that the light came into the world:
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life —
the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us —
that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
And we are writing this that our joy may be complete.This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.”
“If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
but if we walk in the light, as he (God) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”The light in first John is speaking of the Father, as in John 1 – the light.
Back to John 1, 1-5:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.**He was in the beginning with God**all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”Gen.1
**“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; **and the Spirit of God** was moving over the face of the waters.And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.”Please bear with me and READ THIS CHAPTER again:
I AM THE LORD AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
THAT MEN MAY KNOW,
FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN FROM THE WEST,
THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME;
I AM THE LORD, AND THERE SI NO OTHER.I FORM THE LIGHT AND CREATE DARKNESS,
I MAKE WEAL AND CREATE WOE,
I AM THE LORD, WHO DO ALL THESE THINGS.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the skies rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth,
and let it cause righteousness to spring up also;
I the LORD have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, `What are you making'?
or `Your work has no handles'?
Woe to him who says to a father, `What are you begetting?'
or to a woman, `With what are you in travail?'”
Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Will you question me about my children,
or command me concerning the work of my hands?
I MADE THE EARTH,
AND CREATED MAN UPON IT;
IT WAS MY HANDS THAT STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS,
AND I COMMANDED ALL THEIR HOST.
I have aroused him in righteousness,
and I will make straight all his ways;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the LORD of hosts.
Thus says the LORD:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
and the Sabe'ans, men of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours,
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying:
`GOD IS WITH YOU ONLY, AND THERE IS NO OTHER,
NO GOD BESIDES HIM'”
Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
All of them are put to shame and confounded,
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
FOR THUS SAYS THE LORD,
WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS
(HE IS GOD!),
WHO FORMED THE EARTH AND MADE IT
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I AM THE LORD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
`Seek me in chaos.'
I THE LORD SPEAK THE TRUTH,
I DECLARE WHAT IS RIGHT.
“Assemble yourselves and come,
draw near together,
you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge
who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
DECLARE AND PRESENT YOUR CASE;
LET THE COUNSEL TOGETHER!
WHO TOLD THIS LONG AGO?
WHO DECLARED IT OF OLD?
WAS IT NOT I, THE LORD?
AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME,
A RIGHTEOUS GOD AND A SAVIOUR;
THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME.
“TURN TO ME AND BE SAVE,
ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!
FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE SI NO OTHER.
By myself I have sworn,
from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
`To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.'
“Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed,
all who were incensed against him.
In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
shall triumph and glory.”Now, check this:
We can see from the above chapter that there is only one God involved in creation.
So what then is the word but God's own word from his mouth.
Want proof?
Here it is: Isaiah 55:10-11 as a starter:
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes forth FROM MY MOUTH;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”So, all you believers in John 1:1 meaning two Gods, opinions please!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,13:16) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 27 2012,03:02) So then they were calling an Angel 'a god'?
As is in the story of Ishmael, and Hagar…………..Hagar saw the Angel of the Lord and she also called the Angel of the Lord 'God'.
This is okay, it is God's representative.
Jesus is also God's representative, perhaps that Angel which Hagar saw was the pre-existant Jesus?
Maybe I am wrong.
But one thing which I do know is that there is only one true God and that is YHVH, you know, the same God which was Jesus' God.
I agree 100% with what you've posted here, 2B.I even agree that Hagar's angel could have been Jesus, but there is no way to tell – since God has myriads of myriads of angels to choose from. But whether this particular messenger of God was Jesus or not, Jesus is called a god in a few different scriptures. Did you know that?
The point is that God's representatives are sometimes called gods in scripture, whether they be human judges, or spiritual messengers of God. Jesus is no exception to that rule.
I also agree whole-heartedly that our one true God is Jehovah, who is not only OUR one and only God, but also JESUS' one and only God.
Hi Mike,So we agree with that – that there is only one true God as the Scriptures say, and this is good.
The OT tells us simply that God is one God, and that there is no other God besides Him.
Trinitarians will tell us that there are three beings (Gods) all combined to make one
Binitarians will tell us that there are two beings (Gods) combined to make one.This goes right back to the earliest un-canonical writings. Many of the early converts (for example Justin Martyr) were influenced by Greek philosophy,and it seems to have had a huge influence on the 'early writings', and so many other Christian writings were destroyed (burnt) EXCEPT for the ones which still linger today – such as the writings of Justin martyr, Iraneaus, and Ignatius, etc. I wonder why this is?
– perhaps because the remaining writings AGREED with their creeds, whereas the others did not?
I have so much more to say but i should be quiet otherwise I will be flooding my own thread!!
I will get back to the Angels later Mike.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,01:23) Terraricca okay I will relent – I have done thousands of word studies myself but in doing so I lost the spirit. So let us now get back to topic.
2bthat was the beginning
were we start that is2 b
what is your view on ;
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:31) 2 b what is your view on ;
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Terraricca, this is Gods own wisdom, it is poetic and a lovely writing describing Gods wisdom, God's wisdom is a part of Him, it is no-one else's wisdom, but Gods, brought forth from eternity.God also put that wisdom on Jesus as prophesied, Isaiah 11:2,
'The SPIRIT OF YHVH will rest on him: the SPIRIT OF WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, the SPIRIT of COUNSEL and MIGHT, the SPIRIT of KNOWLEDGE and of the fear of YHVH.'
As you can see, the spirit of wisdom is the spirit of YHVH.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,10:29) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 29 2012,01:23) Terraricca okay I will relent – I have done thousands of word studies myself but in doing so I lost the spirit. So let us now get back to topic.
2bthat was the beginning
were we start that is
YesOkay,
another post or two and then I should be done, sorry!
I have just been thinking so much, and these are my notes on my computer as I go.The eternal spirit of God is what exists and has done eternally, it is the same spirit which was in Jesus and is in the world today.
In John 3:34, it is said,
'For HE WHOM GOD HAS SENT UTTERS THE WORDS OF GOD, for it is not by measure that he gives THE SPIRIT.'
And then we have Hebrews 9:14,
'How much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.'
What was with God but the eternal Spirit, and that eternal Spirit WAS God – just as God's WORDS which Jesus spoke were God – they were no-one elses words.
1Cor 2:10-16,
“God has revealed to us THROUGH THE SPIRIT. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
“For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”(and if we have the mind of Christ then we worship the Father as Christ did and serve and do the will of the Father, as Christ did)
John 14:10,
“Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME does his works.”
The Father was in Heaven – but The Father was also in Jesus.
How could that be, but through the Spirit.Quite simple really.
It is just as your spirit is a part of you and IS you and your words are a part of you and ARE you.
Are your words my words or my words your words? Only if we have agreement and share in the same spirit (Aha – the oneness).
But that oneness is love.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,13:16) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 27 2012,03:02) So then they were calling an Angel 'a god'?
As is in the story of Ishmael, and Hagar…………..Hagar saw the Angel of the Lord and she also called the Angel of the Lord 'God'.
This is okay, it is God's representative.
Jesus is also God's representative, perhaps that Angel which Hagar saw was the pre-existant Jesus?
Maybe I am wrong.
But one thing which I do know is that there is only one true God and that is YHVH, you know, the same God which was Jesus' God.
I agree 100% with what you've posted here, 2B.I even agree that Hagar's angel could have been Jesus, but there is no way to tell – since God has myriads of myriads of angels to choose from. But whether this particular messenger of God was Jesus or not, Jesus is called a god in a few different scriptures. Did you know that?
The point is that God's representatives are sometimes called gods in scripture, whether they be human judges, or spiritual messengers of God. Jesus is no exception to that rule.
I also agree whole-heartedly that our one true God is Jehovah, who is not only OUR one and only God, but also JESUS' one and only God.
Hi Mike, yes.
As we know, Angels appeared in the OT, and they called the Angel 'God' – as God's representative (spokesperson).They were God's representatives because God was speaking THROUGH them, just as God was speaking through Jesus too, but the difference is that Jesus was in the flesh.
Jesus said that “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”
Think Ishmael and Hagar “Have I seen God (represented by the Angel) and still live?Of course she was not claiming that the Angel WAS God, and as Jesus said no-one has ever seen God (who lives in unapproachable light).
Just as the Angel which appeared was called God by Hagar and others, it doesn't diminish the fact that there is ONLY one God, YHVH.
No-one has ever SEEN God at any time, they have seen His representatives (One being Jesus, His Son)———————–
For anyone to say that God is a combination of many persons or gods is wrong. God is one, (how many times does God have to say it?)
It is the eternal spirit which is 'with God' and 'IS God' which is eternal and does God's works.
This is what Jesus said also “The Father who dwells 'in me' does his works.”
Jesus said “It is the Spirit which gives life – these words which I speak to you, they are SPIRIT and they are life”.
“So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I SEND IT TO DO.”
Jesus said the words he speaks are spirit and they are life, so the word which was WITH God and WAS God is spirit and is life.
It is the 'eternal spirit'.
And God is Spirit and they that worship Him will worship Him in spirit and in truth.When Jesus speaks about 'oneness' he speaks about the oneness of love which he shares with all of God's children – born not of the will of man nor of the will of flesh, but of God are begotten – as Jesus was and is, and so shall they be.
All that I am trying to say is that there is one true God and John 1:1 is not speaking about two Gods but the one true God.
This is a critical text and one which should be treated respectfully and rightly.
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