In the Beginning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2013,10:07)

Acts 5:30The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

And WHO, exactly, was the “God of our fathers”, Kathi? Was it Jesus, who they killed by hanging on a tree? Or was the Father, who raised Jesus?

My God is the God of the “fathers”, Kathi. My God is the one who raised Jesus from the dead.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 25 2013,14:33)

Mike, I used logical reason and you have not pointed out a flaw in it.

I posted a scripture that shot a hole right through it, Kerwin. But you ignored that hole, and started claiming that God can have two “ONLY begotten sons”. Hmmmm…….

And then you seemed to make a claim that 1 John 4:10 is really referring to the Holy Spirit as the “son” who was sent to be a propitiation. But the same word is used in 1 John 2:2………
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Surely this scripture leaves no doubt to which Son of God was the propitiation for our sins, right?

Does this count as a “flaw” in your understanding?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 25 2013,18:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,15:13) So then “the Word”, who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, could not possibly have been the Holy Spirit, right? Mike, Kewin has answered this: Quote You do make the assumption that Jehovah cannot have one who is an only begotten Son in one way while having a second that is his only begotten Son in another way.

It seems you're flip-flopping a bit, 2B.  You just said that the Holy Spirit is not begotten, and that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Have you changed your mind?

(Besides, Kerwin's statement allows for TWO only begotten sons of God – which kind of makes the word “only” a mis-used word.)

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,06:06)

T, does the fact that Jesus came in the flesh and that the Holy Spirit was in Him scare you? Who is the antichrist but He denies the Father and Son and He who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

2bee

you are correct to say that :Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

but sins he came in the flesh ,what that mean

was he send from above,??? was he a being in heaven

or was he just another man that God called out to become his son

witch one is it

[terraricca]

2bee

were is that scripture that says that THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS” IN “JESUS CHRIST

[2besee]

Hi T,
If you believe that Jesus came down from heaven, then what was He before He came down from Heaven? A body type figure or a spirit like the Father? I say that Jesus was Spirit like the father and I say that Jesus pre-existed as the Holy Spirit.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,10:36)

Hi T, If you believe that Jesus came down from heaven, then what was He before He came down from Heaven? A body type figure or a spirit like the Father? I say that Jesus was Spirit like the father and I say that Jesus pre-existed as the Holy Spirit.

2BE
SO HE WAS A HEAVENLY BEING JUST LIKE HIS FATHER HIS

in that I fully agree with you

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2013,10:07)

Wakeup Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. The Savior is God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Wakeup,

The point I was making was about the “before all ages” part of the verse. God could not have had glory, majesty, etc. THROUGH Jesus Christ BEFORE THE AGES, unless there was a Jesus Christ BEFORE THE AGES.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,17:16)

It seems you're flip-flopping a bit, 2B.  You just said that the Holy Spirit is not begotten, and that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Have you changed your mind? (Besides, Kerwin's statement allows for TWO only begotten sons of God – which kind of makes the word “only” a mis-used word.)

Mike, not necessarily so.
And I am not 'flip flopping' I am learning.

Done another study.

————

Begotten can be translated from the Greek into either “Only” or “Only Begotten” or “Unique”
The Words used are Strongs #3438 and #3439
Both have the same meaning
Short Definition: only, only-begotten, or unique

These are eight occurances:

monogene  
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 3:16
John 3:18
1 John 4:9
Hebrews 11:17

(monogenes
Luke 7:12
Luke 8:42
Luke 9:38

http://biblesuite.com/greek/monogene_s_3439.htm

—————————

John 1:14

And the Word flesh became and dwelt among us and we discerned the glory of him, a glory as of an only begotten (or “unique” or “one and only: as many versions translate it) with a father full of grace and truth.

http://interlinearbible.org/john/1-14.htm

John 3:16

Thus indeed loved God the world, that the Son, the only begotten (or unique/one and only), he gave, that everyone who believes on him not might perish but might have life eternal

http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-16.htm

John 3:18

He that believes on him not is judged, he that however not believes already has been judged because not he has believed on the name of the only begotten (or unique/one and only) Son of God.

http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-18.htm

1 John 4:9

In this was revealed the love of God as to us, that the Son of him, the only begotten (or unique/one and only), has sent God into the world that we might live through him.

http://interlinearbible.org/1_john/4-9.htm

Hebrews 11:17

By faith has offered up Abraham, Isaac, being tested, and his only begotten son was offered up.

http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/11-17.htm

Luke 7:12

Behold, was being carried out the one who had died, only begotten son of the mother of him and she was a widow and a crowd of the town considerable was with her.

http://interlinearbible.org/luke/7-12.htm

Luke 8:42

Because Daughter only begotten was to him about years old twelve and she was dying as moreover went he the crowds pressed around him.

http://interlinearbible.org/luke/8-42.htm

Luke 9:38

And behold a man from the crowd cried out saying Teacher I implore you look upon the son of me for the only begotten to me he is.

—————–

A Son is a Son by birth or by adoption, or (figuratively) anyone who shares the same nature as their Father.
For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the Father, through Christ.

——————–

Do you notice that the word Monogene/s is only used regarding God's Son in John.

In the other writings, only the word “Son” is used. i.e “Son of God” which is translated from the word “huios” which means, simply “a son or a descendent” with no other words attached to it. (I have done a keyword search of “only son” and it only came up with the verses already covered above).

—————-

Another thing: What about the verse that says “This day I have begotten you”? That did not show up in Strongs as “monogenes”…….

Acts 13:13

The word here used for “begotten” is “gegenneka”…
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to.

And, according to Acts 13:13, which day was Jesus “beget, brought forth, or given birth to”?
According to the wording of Acts 13:13,
When He was “raised up”

“anastesas” “Having raised up Jesus”

What do you say about that?

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,17:39)

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,10:36) Hi T, If you believe that Jesus came down from heaven, then what was He before He came down from Heaven? A body type figure or a spirit like the Father? I say that Jesus was Spirit like the father and I say that Jesus pre-existed as the Holy Spirit. 2BE SO HE WAS A HEAVENLY BEING  JUST LIKE HIS FATHER HIS in that I fully agree with you

So T, good.
Could Jesus have pre-existed as the Holy Spirit before coming to be in flesh?

[Wakeup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,15:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 25 2013,10:07) Wakeup Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. The Savior is God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wakeup, The point I was making was about the “before all ages” part of the verse.  God could not have had glory, majesty, etc. THROUGH Jesus Christ BEFORE THE AGES, unless there was a Jesus Christ BEFORE THE AGES.

Mike b.

There was Gods word in the beginning,that God had appionted to create the angels and the earth,and man.

And later this word was made flesh,and was given an earthly name. Jehoshua.

He is the executer,to do Gods will,above and below.
God was communicating with him before he created all things. Its obvious that God has brought him forth as a being,next to him.

Dont use human logic; use spiritual logic.

In human logic that does not make sense,but so is an everlasting God to human reasoning.

wakeup.

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,10:51)

Hi Ed, Do you have a youtube link to that video? I can only download Youtube converted to MP3.

Hi 2Besee,

Click on the (white) writing at the top of the screen and it will bring you there (as it is the link).

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 26 2013,15:36)

Hi T, If you believe that Jesus came down from heaven, then what was He before He came down from Heaven? A body type figure or a spirit like the Father? I say that Jesus was Spirit like the father and I say that Jesus pre-existed as the Holy Spirit.

Hi 2Besee,

Isn't that like saying Jesus caused his own conception?
Because the causation of Jesus' conception is clearly
attributed the “HolySpirit”.  (see  Matt.1:18 & 1:20)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 25 2013,11:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 26 2013,03:07) Wakeup Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. The Savior is God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Yahweh is both God and Lord. Jesus is the Lord of lords! Acts 5:30The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Lightenup. I can not disagree with that. wakeup.

Well praise the dear LORD!

[Lightenup]

2besee,
You asked what version of John 1:18 I used…the NASB.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Jan. 24 2013,21:40)

……..who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos………

To me that says Jesus is called these many things BY the Spirit, ie:  various people, speaking by the Holy Spirit, have called Jesus these various names.

And if you believe Justin Martyr, which I do, you'll realize that Jesus IS the “wisdom” spoken of in Proverbs 8, meaning he was created as the first of God's works.

You'll also realize that “logos” is also one of the names JESUS is called by.

In other words, John, speaking BY the Holy Spirit of God, called Jesus “the logos” in 1:1, 1:14, 1 John 1:1, and Rev 19:13.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,18:52)

And if you believe Justin Martyr, which I do, you'll realize that Jesus IS the “wisdom” spoken of in Proverbs 8, meaning he was created as the first of God's works. You'll also realize that “logos” is also one of the names JESUS is called by. In other words, John, speaking BY the Holy Spirit of God, called Jesus “the logos” in 1:1, 1:14, 1 John 1:1, and Rev 19:13.

Mike, I do not believe any of the “early church fathers writings”, anyway, so it does not matter!

“CALL NO MAN ON EARTH YOUR FATHER”.

Anyway I already said that they were completely inconsistent and that we should leave them out of this, so I went against my request, and I knew it.
I only get facts from them occasionally as to how the early Church did things such as Baptism, but, with their ideas on Christology – no.

As I said they were inconsistent, and what happened of all of the other early church writings? They were burnt. The “early church fathers” taught a trinity – or something that slowly built up to a trinity (the writing's that survived all of the literature burnings that is).
They mixed Greek philosophy with Christianity.

So forget that I put that one!

Trust in God.

[2besee]

Mike,
Hermas and a few other writings are fine – I mean, the ones that were once considered cannon, in the early church.

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,17:35)

2bee were is that scripture that says that THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS” IN “JESUS CHRIST

I am just getting the verses now.

[2besee]

Mike, do some research.
Hermas was once considered as canon.
Why did they change their mind and 'take it away'?
Was it because “Hermas” believed as we do? and it did not agree with them anymore.

Funny that they took it away, when it was (apparently) so popular.

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