- This topic has 3,161 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2013,18:44) Notice Scripture calls the spirit of a man, man.
The word “man” is genitive, Kerwin. It is correctly translated into English as “of man”. Or, more accurately, “who AMONG man” – as the NET and NIV translate it.Quote (2besee @ Jan. 24 2013,19:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,14:21)
To ALL:WHO, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, IS THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD?
My answer is “Jesus Christ”.
1 John 4
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Mike,I do believe that you will never see this regardless of what ever scriptures are shown to you. This is something that only God can reveal ………..
So then YOUR answer to my big, bolded question is: “I believe the Holy Spirit is the only begotten Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit died on a tree as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind.”Have I explained your belief accurately?
Okay 2B,
Back to school.
Hebrews 1
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
1. Who is the “God” mentioned in verse 8?
2. Who is the God OF that God – as mentioned in verse 9?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,14:51) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 24 2013,19:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,14:21)
To ALL:WHO, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, IS THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD?
My answer is “Jesus Christ”.
1 John 4
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Mike,I do believe that you will never see this regardless of what ever scriptures are shown to you. This is something that only God can reveal ………..
So then YOUR answer to my big, bolded question is: “I believe the Holy Spirit is the only begotten Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit died on a tree as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind.”Have I explained your belief accurately?
Hi Mike, NO, that is not how I see it, at all.
I believe that the 'only begotten son of God' who was crucified and died was Jesus.I think that this is where me and Kerwin may differ a bit in our understanding is that i believe that the Holy Spirit was not 'begotten' but has always existed with the Father. I believe that the 'begotten' son of God was Jesus.
I could continue on with my understanding but… not right now, I was only 'popping in' and reading!
“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 24 2013,19:59) …….i believe that the Holy Spirit was not 'begotten' but has always existed with the Father. I believe that the 'begotten' son of God was Jesus.
So then “the Word”, who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, could not possibly have been the Holy Spirit, right?(Btw 2B, you don't have to worry about those last posts from me. I'm starting all over with you, on a question by question/point by point basis. So you can forget all that other stuff I posted, because we will eventually get to it again anyway.)
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 25 2013,15:03) “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Hi Mike,As you can see in this verse, there are two here, 'the son of man' and 'the Holy Spirit'.
When I read scripture now, I can see parts of the Gospels where it is the son of man speaking, and in other parts it is the son of God (Holy Spirit) speaking, and then again at other times it is hard to distinguish which is which because Jesus is also 'the begotten son of God' so that is why I say that the Holy Spirit and Jesus became as one, and why Jesus said the same thing Himself (me and my Father are one – if you have seen me you have seen the Father) and how I understand that is easy, because the Holy Spirit is a part of God and also is God… maybe a bit too complicated for some.
But it comes together with time.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2013,19:07) Through these men particularly the hope was made flesh, the dream came true.
Well, I admit I never thought you'd even find such an odd statement.Now tell me, in what way was the hope “made flesh”, Kerwin?
I understand it as, “the hope we had now had a human face to it – the faces of these particular men”.
How do YOU understand the hope being made flesh?
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 24 2013,20:15) Hi Mike, As you can see in this verse, there are two here, 'the son of man' and 'the Holy Spirit'.
Yes, Gene and others here think they also have the spirit, or whatever, that enables them to decide which words of Jesus came from the man, and which came from God inside of him.Anyway, I need a DIRECT answer to my last post to you. (7th post on the previous page.)
Mike, just popping in again shortly, have not read your posts yet, but,
Just wanted to add, Kerwin could be right and I may be wrong, if Justin Maryr's understanding is anything to go by.
150 AD Justin Martyr
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word”Do you see how Justin understood “The Son” to be called “The Holy Spirit” and also “The Word” and “Wisdom”, etc. He understood it to be one and the same thing – a “certain rational power” ministering to the Father's will, beget as an act of will, just as we beget our own word when we also speak.
Mike
Quote Oh brother! Is anyone else seeing this? Kerwin is making his case that the HOLY SPIRIT is the “only begotten Son of God”! yes I can see it ,but they are so desperate to protect their personal view about what they want to accept as their own truth ,
they have not understood God's whole plan from the beginning ,and so they stack with a partial view and understanding ,what only lead them to a small understanding ,
and so GO ALL OVER TO LOOK FOR SUPPORT “BUT DO NOT GO TO THE SCRIPTURES ” BECAUSE THEY DO NOT TRUST THE SCRIPTURES ,
what is worst ,is that if they find something that support their claim ,then and only then they accept the scriptures as they are written
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,13:44) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,02:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,13:51) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 22 2013,14:28) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 23 2013,09:08) Mike, so if according to you, another god made the earth too,
Correction, according to you and others, through. (same thing).
I disagree that it is the “same thing”, 2B.Tertullian wrote: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
And Paul wrote: there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
I see the difference in all things coming FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus. Tertullian clearly saw this difference as well. Apparently, you don't yet see it.
(As a side note: Whatever is included in the “all things” that came FROM God, are included in the “all things” that came THROUGH Jesus. So if angels came FROM God, then angels came THROUGH Jesus. If the heavens and earth came FROM God, then the heavens and earth came THROUGH Jesus. Colossians 1:16 actually teaches these things word for word.
And t8 just posted Jude 1:25, which says that power and majesty are and have been TO our God, THROUGH Jesus Christ, now, before the ages, and forever. It makes perfect sense that Jesus was around “before the ages”, since Hebrews 1:2 tells us that those ages were in fact created THROUGH Jesus Christ.)
Hi Mike.
Tertullian? What date was that written?
This is what I'm talking about, 2B. A whole post full of valuable, scriptural tidbits, and you only commented on the Tertullian part?
Here comes the “buckling down” part again:1. 2B, according to 1 Cor 8:6, did ALL THINGS come FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
2. Is it then assumable that the same “ALL THINGS” that came FROM the Father also came THROUGH Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
3. Is “the earth” one of the “ALL THINGS” that came FROM the Father? YES or NO?
4. Doesn't it then stand to reason that “the earth” is also one of the “ALL THINGS” that came THROUGH Jesus Christ?
5. In fact, does Col 1:16 list some of the “ALL THINGS” that were created THROUGH Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
6. Does Col 1:16 say, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him”? YES or NO?
7. Does Jude 1:25 say that “glory, majesty, power and authority” have come TO God THROUGH Jesus Christ “before all ages”? YES or NO?
8. Does that make sense since Hebrews 1:2 says the God created the ages THROUGH Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
See 2B? These are some of the points I made in that post. They are the points you just completely overlooked. I will not post to you like this from now on. Instead, I will ask you ONE question, and wait for a DIRECT answer to that ONE question.
I see that bigger posts make you think you can just avoid the valid, scriptural points I've made. Now I've learned how to discuss scriptures with you. Get ready to scripturally defend your beliefs.
Quote This is what I'm talking about, 2B. A whole post full of valuable, scriptural tidbits, and you only commented on the Tertullian part? Here comes the “buckling down” part again:Mike, the simple thing that you are missing here is that all things came through the power of God, and through the word of God and through the spirit of God. God simply said “Be” and it was so — and his spirit moved across the waters (Genesis 1:1).
So while people can let their imaginations run wild as to how God must have created the world (as if God is a man), according to scriptures and according to our knowledge of God — God is so powerful that it 'just can be', according to His will and His power.You said to me that I did not answer your post on the scriptures that you presented. Mike, I have and I did (page 87). I gave you my Greek “analysis” of Paul's words. Yet you say that i did not answer you
.As I said – it could easily be, (if you consider all of scripture):
“To us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, on account of whom are all things, and we by Him.
Paul used two completely different words (ex-ἐξ and di'-δι') which most versions translate as 'through' in both instances, however, if both meant the same thing then why did Paul chose to use two different Greek words. So the above translation or meaning could possibly be true.
http://biblos.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htm
I also gave you the Greek meanings to Hebrew 1:1, quite some time back, which also can mean the same thing as the above (such as the word that means 'the age' instead of 'the world').
————–
'In many parts and in many ways of old, God, having spoken to the fathers, in the prophets; in last the days these, he spoke to us in Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages (*aionos), who being radiance of the glory, and exact expression of the substance of him, upholding moreover all things by the word of the power of him, purification of sins having made, sat down on right hand of the Majesty on high. by so much better having become than the angels, as much as more excellent beyond them, he has inherited a name. to which indeed said he ever of the angels, Son of me are you; I today have begotten you? and again, I will be to him for Father, an
d he will be to me for Son? When moreover again he brings in the first-born, into the world, he says, And let worship him, all angels of God. And as to indeed the angels he says, Who makes the angels of him winds, and the ministers of him, of fire a flame; unto however the Son, the throne of you, O God, to the ages (*aionos) of the ages (*aionos), and the scepter of righteousness the scepter of the kingdom of you. You did love righteousness and did hate lawlessness; because of this, anointed you God, the God of you, with the oil of exultation, above the companions of you. (men)*aionos
aión: a space of time, an age
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.–Read Daniel chapter 7.
continuing on with Hebrews:
'………And You in beginning, Lord, the earth did found, and works of the hands of you, are the heavens (The world was created through the one God YHVH, and so the author of Hebrews would of had that in mind, so we know that this talking about God who alone created the world). They will perish; you (Jesus) however remain; and all as a garment will grow old; and as a robe you will roll up them, like a garment also they will be changed; you however the same are, and the years of you will not end. to which moreover of the angels said he ever, Sit at right hand of me, until anyhow I might place the enemies of you, a footstool for the feet of you? Not all are they ministering spirits, for service being sent forth, on account of those being about to inherit salvation?'
—————-
This is the same as a small study that I did years ago on the word that is translated in almost all translations as 'eternal torment' when actually the Greek word means something else (for a time or for an age, yet they translated it as 'eternal') — and this is quite common knowledge among those who have searched it out.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,07:44) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2013,18:44) Notice Scripture calls the spirit of a man, man.
The word “man” is genitive, Kerwin. It is correctly translated into English as “of man”. Or, more accurately, “who AMONG man” – as the NET and NIV translate it.
Mike,Who among man?
The one among man is the spirit of a man.
The spirit of a man is among the group man.
The above wording of Hebrews is taken from Here: http://biblos.com/hebrews/1-1.htm page by page.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2013,12:52) 2bee that video of yours stinks ,if you think that I listen to that crap ,your are wrong,if you don't believe it why do you send this garbage to me
you must think that i am now senile 
T, do you know how to listen to something 'objectively'?You see that there are some errors in the individuals understanding, according to you, but there may also be some key points that are worth serious consideration.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,15:13)
So then “the Word”, who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, could not possibly have been the Holy Spirit, right?I will have to get to this another day Mike.
Before I forget, somewhere you asked how come God said “Let us make man in our image”. This is similar, I believe, to how we 'think in our mind' – if you 'think about it', you may understand!
Quote (Btw 2B, you don't have to worry about those last posts from me. I'm starting all over with you, on a question by question/point by point basis. So you can forget all that other stuff I posted, because we will eventually get to it again anyway.) Yes. okay. Also, I will try to only do one post in reply, rather than several smaller ones (:
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 25 2013,13:44) 2beesee, The original manuscripts vary on the exact wording according to some reports. Interpretations of those variations widen the possible meaning of John 1:18.
God has many meanings in Scripture though our culture is prone to use it as a name for Yawheh.
Let us examine these words from KJV of 1 Corinthians 2:11.
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?”
Notice Scripture calls the spirit of a man, man.
The same is true with God.
Some “Jesus is Yawheh” believers seem to like the “only begotten God” manuscripts but I see no significant difference with the “only begotten Son” ones.
Thank you Kerwin
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
