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Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 11 2013,09:54) I believe “ho” and a number of other words depending on the function they serve is the sentence simply mean “who” as in this is the man, who is Mike Boll.
“Who” is also a valid translation, Kerwin. And since the only begotten god/son is definitely a person, “who” works the best.But in English, if we were to read: It was Mike that said this………., we could, knowing that “Mike” was a person, also say, It was Mike who said this……. Either sentence conveys the same thought.
So “who” versus “that” is not really the main issue here. If you prefer: only begotten god who is in the bosom of the Father, then I have no problem.
I just want to know if you prefer “monogenes theos“, or “monogenes huios” in that verse.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 11 2013,09:54) Hi Kerwin, there is no such thing as 'a begotten god'?
Hi Ed,There goes your trademark question mark at the end of a STATEMENT (not a question).
It is noted that your preference for 1:18 is “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2013,01:56) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 11 2013,09:35) I can see where the Greek may be translated as such though from what you write the word “Son” is not explicitly written.
Hi Kerwin,You need to delve a little deeper. In some Greek mss, the words are “monogenes theos” (only begotten god), and in other Greek mss, the words are “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
What the NIV (and many other Trinitarian translations) now do is this:
They put the word “theos” in front of the word “monogenes”, making it say “God, the only begotten”.
But instead of translating “monogenes” as “only begotten”, they translate it as “one and only”, making it say, “God, the one and only”.
Then, they ADD the word “son” after “monogenes”, making it say “God, the one and only Son”.
Don't be fooled by their trickery, Kerwin. The two choices are simply “monogenes theos”, or “monogenes huios”.
Which one do you think John actually wrote?
Hi Mike,Once man puts a wedge in Scripture, someone else comes along and
pounds the wedge in. …there is no such thing as 'a begotten god'.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2013,02:08) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 11 2013,09:54) Hi Kerwin, there is no such thing as 'a begotten god'?
Hi Ed,There goes your trademark question mark at the end of a STATEMENT (not a question).
It is noted that your preference for 1:18 is “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
Yes Mike,My preference is for God's word;
not mans alterations to God's word.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIt's not as cut and dry as that in this case, Ed. There are important mss that have “son”, and other important mss that have “god” in that verse.
To me, it doesn't really matter, for we already know Jesus is the only begotten son of God, who is also a god – according to many scriptures. Either translation is fine with me.
I do, however, tend to agree with the comments the NETNotes scholars made, ie: it is hard to imagine a scribe reading “only begotten son”, and changing it to “only begotten god”, since, like you say, “only begotten god” is an odd reading.
On the other hand, it would be easy to imagine that a scribe, who read “only begotten god”, would change it to “only begotten son”, since “only begotten son” is already a common Johanine saying.
But like I said, either one fits fine. And neither one changes any scriptural truth as a whole.
Hi Mike,
What 'important mss' have the words 'begotten god' in John 1:18?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgAccording to YOU, Jesus is not a god. According to the inspired written word of God, he is. Hmmmm………… which one to believe?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2013,09:48) Hi Mike, What 'important mss' have the words 'begotten god' in John 1:18?
Do a little research into it, Ed. You can start by clicking on the link I posted in the 8th post on page 59 of this thread.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2013,20:56) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 11 2013,09:35) I can see where the Greek may be translated as such though from what you write the word “Son” is not explicitly written.
Hi Kerwin,You need to delve a little deeper. In some Greek mss, the words are “monogenes theos” (only begotten god), and in other Greek mss, the words are “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
What the NIV (and many other Trinitarian translations) now do is this:
They put the word “theos” in front of the word “monogenes”, making it say “God, the only begotten”.
But instead of translating “monogenes” as “only begotten”, they translate it as “one and only”, making it say, “God, the one and only”.
Then, they ADD the word “son” after “monogenes”, making it say “God, the one and only Son”.
Don't be fooled by their trickery, Kerwin. The two choices are simply “monogenes theos”, or “monogenes huios”.
Which one do you think John actually wrote?
Mike,Monogenes can mean “one of a kind” which is probably the choice the NIV translators are making. That does not explain using both Son and God and so seems to be a case of doctrinal bias. In every other case when used in the New Testament it means or could mean only begotten.
Given that and the claim that either the “only begotten god” or “only begotten son” lie as God's breast I am not sure which I prefer. I suspicion given the use of the Ancient Greek language in other places both would work. I require more information to make any conclusion.
Ed J.
Do you know where there is a copy of the Textus Receptus that also has English definitions of the Ancient Greek words.
Angels, who are created, are called gods in the OT.
Wisdom, who is not created and not a person, is called she and the first begotten of God. She is also called a goddess in other text.Hi Kerwin,
Here is the Textus Receptus:
http://bibledatabase.net/html/stephanos_1550/index.htmAnd Here is the Strong's Concordance:
http://biblesuite.com/strongs.htmEloheem does not have the identical meaning as “God” does in English.
The word Eloheem means Angels, Judges, magistrates, god's and “God”“God” in English ONLY means GOD.
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them (in the AKJV Bible) from this generation for ever.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue(that is English) will he speak to this people.1Cor.14:27 (AKJV) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two(Hebrew, Aramaic),
or at the most by three(Greek), and that by course; [and let one (“AKJV Bible”) translate].The “AKJV Bible” we have today was no accident, it's exactly the way GOD wanted it!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgSo no Kerwin,
Angels are not called gods?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2013,03:56) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2013,09:48) Hi Mike, What 'important mss' have the words 'begotten god' in John 1:18?
Do a little research into it, Ed. You can start by clicking on the link I posted in the 8th post on page 59 of this thread.
That's OK if you don't want to say.
Because I don't believe there are any.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2013,13:24) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 10 2013,16:35) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) In verse 18, is John still talking about the Word from verse one? YES or NO? No, it is talking about Jesus.
Hi 2B,Thank you for your answer.
I understand that you like Biblos.com, and base much of your Greek understanding on that site. (I like it also, and use it almost daily.) I want you to know that there is much debate over whether the original Greek words John wrote were “monogenes huios” (only begotten son), or “monogenes theos” (only begotten god). The site you linked has translated ONE Greek manuscript – and that particular ms has “monogenes theos” (only begotten god). But just because they chose to use THAT PARTICULAR ms for their site doesn't mean that “monogenes theos” are the words John actually wrote in 1:18. Like I said before, there are many important Greek mss that have “monogenes theos”, and there are many other important Greek mss that have “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
I suggest that before you side with Biblos.com, you at least read some information from NETNotes, so you can make an informed decision.
If you click on footnote #1 in the NET translation on this site, you can read a WHOLE LOT of information about it. (Make sure you click on the “thumb tack”, or the info will keep disappearing.)
I will post just a snippet of what the footnote says:
The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss………….
The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός (only begotten god).
Internally, although υἱός (son) fits the immediate context more readily, θεός (god) is much more difficult.
Scholars always lean towards the more difficult wording, because they believe no scribe would change an easy reading to a difficult one, and therefore, the more difficult reading is usually the original one.
There is a boat-load of info in that footnote, and I think you should look at it before “settling” with the ms that Biblos.com used.
(Look at it this way: If you prefer “only begotten god”, like you've so far indicated, you are making my job way easier.
)
Thanks Mike I took a look. It is amazing how many different translations from the Greek there are and how different they all seem.Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2013,01:36) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 11 2013,09:35) Hi all, - I believe without doubt that the day of the Lord (The return of Jesus) will come, “burning like an oven”, and you either
Hi 2Besee,“The Day of the LORD” means “The Day of YHVH”. Which is the “Feast of Tabernacles”.
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Cor 15:50)
We all had Adams blood, but the blood of Christ cleanses us.
(The Passover) (Lev.17:11) For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement
for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.(The Passover) 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(Pentecost) 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(Feast of Tabernacles) 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,
even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor 15:22-24)Thy Kingdom Come , thy will be done
(Pentecost) (Feast of Tabernacles)Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD(YHVH),
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed off topic but I have read your post thanks.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 12 2013,04:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2013,11:24) (Look at it this way: If you prefer “only begotten god”, like you've so far indicated, you are making my job way easier. )
Mike……….Can't you see you are dwelling on something that can be taken different way, and forcing it to meet your rendition of what you want it to say.Why not Just look for other scriptures that would clearify it for you. Here is what i mean, if i had a problem with knowing if there is other God's i can find other scriptures Where God himself said he looked for other Gods and found none and where he said severial time there is NO OTHER Gods Besides HIM, and even go to where Jesus said , for thou art the “ONLY” “TRUE” God. Now if Jessu said “only” then that means there are no others, and if He also said “TRUE GOD” then all others and NOT “TRUE” GODS. So the question is, is the God you believe is a God, a REAL GOD or a FALSE God. Jesus said there is “ONLY (ONE) “TRUE” GOD. So that leaves only “FALSE” God's left. Paul said cleary there are Many “SO-CALLED” God's but unto us ther is ONLY ONE GOD.
My question to you how can you simply discard those scriptures as if they simply do not exist.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Amen Gene, I agree Mike with Gene. Good points.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 12 2013,04:35) Mike, 2beesee, The NIV states the following.
John 1:18
New International Version (NIV)18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Footnotes:
John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only Son, who
I can see where the Greek may be translated as such though from what you write the word “Son” is not explicitly written. Believing as I do that this verse is speaking of the Spirit and that the Spirit is a part of God, either one is fine.
Aha, I get you Kerwin.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2013,03:56) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 11 2013,09:35) I can see where the Greek may be translated as such though from what you write the word “Son” is not explicitly written.
Hi Kerwin,You need to delve a little deeper. In some Greek mss, the words are “monogenes theos” (only begotten god), and in other Greek mss, the words are “monogenes huios” (only begotten son).
What the NIV (and many other Trinitarian translations) now do is this:
They put the word “theos” in front of the word “monogenes”, making it say “God, the only begotten”.
But instead of translating “monogenes” as “only begotten”, they translate it as “one and only”, making it say, “God, the one and only”.
Then, they ADD the word “son” after “monogenes”, making it say “God, the one and only Son”.
Don't be fooled by their trickery, Kerwin. The two choices are simply “monogenes theos”, or “monogenes huios”.
Which one do you think John actually wrote?
Well if there is so much confusion and so much trickery in translations, then the best thing that one can do, is to read whatever translation of the scriptures that they are comfortable with and pray before they read and meditate on it and seek God's truth in the matter, always.Hi 2Besee,
If all books are the same, why not
get your truth from a comic book? (Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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