- This topic has 3,161 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hey 2B,
Let's forget this Paul stuff for a minute, and focus only on how your understanding of John 1:1 works with the rest of John 1.
You think “the Word” is the “Holy Spirit OF God”, which is somehow also “God Himself”, right?
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Verses 7 and 8: Did John come to witness about God, who would be coming soon after him?
Verse 9: Was God Himself coming into the world?
Hi Mike, Thank-you!
Before I get to your other questions, I have a quick question for you (and anybody else)….
Do Angels create,
and if so, can you show me a scripture that says that they do?
Thank-you.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,09:07) Hi Mike, Thank-you! Before I get to your other questions, I have a quick question for you (and anybody else)….
Do Angels create,
and if so, can you show me a scripture that says that they do?
Thank-you.
2dddoes a carpenter in construction create the project or just participate in it
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2012,15:11) Hey 2B, Let's forget this Paul stuff for a minute, and focus only on how your understanding of John 1:1 works with the rest of John 1.
You think “the Word” is the “Holy Spirit OF God”, which is somehow also “God Himself”, right?
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Verses 7 and 8: Did John come to witness about God, who would be coming soon after him?
Verse 9: Was God Himself coming into the world?
Mike Yes,The one and only God YHVH was coming into the world, as he is the light which John spoke about, the light was coming into the world, but the only way that he could do that was through his own Holy Spirit.
That is why Jesus said that God was IN HIM and yet also IN HEAVEN!
That is also why Jesus is HERE but also IN HEAVEN through the eternal spirit.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 08 2012,13:57) 2bb Quote This is due to the fact that the Word of God was clothed in the Body of Jesus. could you show a scripture that says that
T,Sorry but I do not know of any off hand, ATM.
<!–QuoteBegin–terraricca+Dec.
08 2012,17:55–>Quote (terraricca @ Dec.
08 2012,17:55)Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,09:07) Do Angels create,
and if so, can you show me a scripture that says that they do?
Thank-you.
2dddoes a carpenter in construction create the project or just participate
in itPr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindQuote does a carpenter in construction create the project or just
participate in itT, God is not a man, He simply speaks and it is so as the scriptures say, and also the scriptures say that God ALL ALONE created the heavens and the earth.
Read this (carefully):
'For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.' (Isaiah 55:8-12)There are two things in that verse.
Firstly, THE WORD comes from GOD'S OWN MOUTH and accomplishes all that he purposes it to do and this is NOT ONLY with creation BUT ALSO with his own WORD coming down from heaven over 2000 years ago and watering the earth and being seed to the sower and BREAD to the EATER and it will accomplish all that he SENT IT to do.Quote Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindThis is 'personifying' wisdom in a poetic and in a symbolic kind of a way.
God has always had his own wisdom, like his own word and his own spirit, just as we have our own.
The LORD by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
by his knowledge the deeps broke forth. (Proverbs 3:19-20)Okay, I will be busy over the next week – so don't mind if I don't reply for a while,
also if i have missed anything out, remind me=)
I do not usually read any of the early church writings, but I just happened to stumble upon this while i ws looking for something else:
It is by a St Irenaues 1st or 2nd century, and it says that God alone created, not any Angels nor any other gods, nor any other being but only the one God, through his own spoken word.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.iii.html
QUOTE…………..Chapter II.—The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.
5. For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.”Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world—these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?…………….UNQUOTE
I don't usually read them as they all seemed to be confused or contradictory to each other.
Anyway that is all for now.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,16:25) <!–QuoteBegin–terraricca+Dec.
08 2012,17:55–>Quote (terraricca @ Dec.
08 2012,17:55)Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,09:07) Do Angels create,
and if so, can you show me a scripture that says that they do?
Thank-you.
2dddoes a carpenter in construction create the project or just participate
in itPr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindQuote does a carpenter in construction create the project or just
participate in itT, God is not a man, He simply speaks and it is so as the scriptures say, and also the scriptures say that God ALL ALONE created the heavens and the earth.
Read this (carefully):
'For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.' (Isaiah 55:8-12)There are two things in that verse.
Firstly, THE WORD comes from GOD'S OWN MOUTH and accomplishes all that he purposes it to do and this is NOT ONLY with creation BUT ALSO with his own WORD coming down from heaven over 2000 years ago and watering the earth and being seed to the sower and BREAD to the EATER and it will accomplish all that he SENT IT to do.Quote Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindThis is 'personifying' wisdom in a poetic and in a symbolic kind of a way.
God has always had his own wisdom, like his own word and his own spirit, just as we have our own.
The LORD by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
by his knowledge the deeps broke forth. (Proverbs 3:19-20)
2BBQuote T, God is not a man YOU HAVE MIST MY POINT ,do you think i am that stupid and would not know that
Quote God has always had his own wisdom, like his own word and his own spirit, just as we have our own. then why do you try to make me believe that he ad to created
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.SO WHO HIS “ME ” IN VERSE 22
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,02:53) Mike Yes, The one and only God YHVH was coming into the world, as he is the light which John spoke about, the light was coming into the world, but the only way that he could do that was through his own Holy Spirit.
But don't you, for some odd reason, insist that the Holy Spirit OF God actually IS God?So your statement really reads, “The one and only God YHVH was coming into the world……but the only way that he could do that was through his own
Holy SpiritGod YHVH.Does that make sense to you?
Anyway, moving down the chapter:
John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—What name is it we are to believe in to become children of God? Is the name John was talking about “God YHVH”?
Compare your understanding (so far) with John 3:16-18.
In your understanding, we are to believe in the name of “God YHVH”, who came into the world. Yet Jesus says we are to believe in the name of the SON OF God, whom God SENT into the world.
Do you see how your understanding is already going off track? And we've just begun to scratch the surface.
'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US'
Oops, what you gonna do now?
His name was Jesus and in that name of Jesus we are saved.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 08 2012,15:01) 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US' Oops, what you gonna do now?
His name was Jesus and in that name of Jesus we are saved.
2B,FIRST, you didn't even attempt to address my post.
SECONDLY, the Hebrew words “immanuel” mean “God IS with us. The only people who try to say it means “God with us” are Trinitarians, who want Jesus to BE the very God he is the Son of.
THIRDLY, compare the phrase “God is with us” in 2 Chronicles 13:12 and Isaiah 8:10. Does the phrase mean that God Almighty Himself came down from heaven and was LITERALLY “with” the Israelites in those two verses?
Of course not. The phrase “God is with us” simply means “God is on our side, fighting right along with us”. Surely you've heard someone say, “May God be with you and bless you on your journey”, or something to that effect. It means “may the presence of God be with you, guiding you and helping you”. It doesn't mean that the being of God Almighty Himself is personally and literally right there with you, in the passenger seat.
It is the same with Jesus. His name is called “immanuel”, because through him coming to the earth, God demonstrated that He is with His people (on their side, fighting for them), still to this day.
The Trinitarians try to do the same thing with Jesus being called “Jehovah our Righteousness” (when it is really “Jehovah IS our Righteousness”. Jeremiah 23:6) They don't get as far with this one though, since Jer 33:16 uses the same name for the city of Jerusalem.
And FINALLY, are you suggesting that YHVH changed His name to “Jesus”?
2B, please address my points from the last post. Please acknowledge the fact that your understanding does not match the words of Jesus in John 3:16-18.
Then we can move farther down John 1.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 09 2012,03:02) Terraricca you are misunderstanding what I wrote and also misquoting me.
2BBIF THIS IS TRUE ; please forgive me
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
