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Hi T8
You wrote: According to the Bible, The Second Death doesn’t allow anyone to be tormented in Hell for eternity as some think.
Me: True. The definition of hell here is hades or grave and not Gehenna. So no more death and a place of death. You cannot be tormented when you are dead.
You: It is written clearly in scripture that Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire…
Me: True, not only hell, but death also.
Rev 20:14 (NKJV) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Me: There will be no more death. Hades represents the grave. And the grave represents the home of the dead.
You: and the heavens and earth too.
Me: Click on the below link. I do not see heaven and earth being thrown in the lake of fire. The lake of fire cleans you spiritually. The heavens and earth do not need to be cleanest spiritually. The day of the Lord is one thousand years. For a day is like a thousand years to the Lord (verse 8). Obviously, the lake of fire occurs first and then the new heavens and earth (Matt 5:18) at the end of the thousand year millennium.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=Lake+of+Fire&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_12 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Matt 5:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Me: God wills that none will perish, therefore none will.
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
You:
The wicked do not inherit eternal life, (John 3:16).
Me: You forgot to list verse 17.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him (4982. sózó: will) be saved.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4982.htm
Me: All will believe in God in the end. The earth will be cleanest of all unrighteousness through the mercy of God.
You: The human soul is not eternal, (Matthew 10:28);…While Hell is a place of torment, it is not eternal as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14);
Me:
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Me: Hell here is 1067.
Gehenna does not exist today. Therefore it represents complete destruction.Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Me: In the end, there is only the holy spirit, not the human soul (spirit). There is also a new body. So the old man that was crucified and of the flesh will be thrown into the lake of fire.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Me: Man is worth more than the sparrows. All men will be cleanest and saved.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Me: God is responsible for all the evil in the world today. He allows Satan and evil men to do his bidding. We cannot really know good unless we contrast it with evil. God reconciles everything at the end. He is in complete control.
All in the parenthesis are my emphasis
Hi All,
Here is a good website with wealth of information on the second death and lake of fire.
Hi Nick
You said
telling men that all are forgiven without repentance and baptism into Jesus?
No I’m not saying that Nick you are .
They getsaved just like you did the Father drawr you to his only begotten Son the Lord Jesus Christ. They do the same thing they did for you they bring them to the place of repentance. You might say they go though the fire. Of correction.a rifinere fire Nick. God bless I guess we are not using scriptures , idp tseetp many in your post.
Hi TC,
Gehenna does not exist now?
Certainly it’s role is manifested after the judgement.
Then the waiting places are emptied and thrown into it. The time approaches.
Hi,
This site is becoming unsuitable soil.
There are areas hardened in stubbornness and sprouting weeds of falsehood.
The Word finds no interest and no welcome and we were told not to plant among weeds. Perhaps there is hope?
Jer 4.3
Hi All
Daniel 12:2-4:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase”
The above passage shows that death is like sleep. It also refers to a resurrection to everlasting life and resurrection to shame and to everlasting contempt. Notice that those who are wise will shine and still, after they shall awake, turn many to righteousness. Since they cannot turn those who are raised to everlasting contempt to life, who are they turning to life?
Obviously, those who were dead and not dead in Christ are those that are among the many that are turned to righteousness. Thus, the Bible clearly shows that there is a future offer of salvation past this current life and many will be turned to righteousness–many are then converted.
Jesus taught in Matthew 10:15 that those in Sodom and Gomorrah will do better than those who intentionally reject the message:
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
If the fate of Sodom is already eternal condemnation, how could it be better for them than for others?
Matthew 11:20-26, notice what Jesus stated:
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.”
Notice the Jesus clearly teaches that some, like Sodom, will still have a chance and that this knowledge is hidden to many of the wise of this world.
Ezekiel 16:55 teaches that it was known that Sodom would return:
55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate (KJV).
What does your church teach is the fate of Sodom? Does it teach that they will have an opportunity for salvation? God bless
Athony. ….good post,yes there still remains mercy and hope for all, in our God brother.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Yes Gene He is our brother . He goes out for the last sheep. Isn’t He good. It says we will rule with Him.
God bless Gene
Hi All
In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.” God bless
Hi All
In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.” God bless
Hi Anthony that is interesting.
Several years ago I studied the early church writings. The minute I saw the belief coming through of eternal conscious torment, I stopped reading and passed them off as a heretic! Most early writings I read never mentioned eternal conscious torment except for I think Ireneaus and Justin Martyr.
Hi Anthony,
The so called CHURCH FATHERS did not walk in the Spirit, produced little known fruit and are false teachers.
We were warned.
Hi Anthony,
Personal interpretation is frowned n by scripture itself( 2 Peter 1.
But lawlessness is popular here.
Hi miia
This may help.
all one has to do is turn to Augustine, a clear non-Universalist, to see how it was once upon a time a rather popular doctrine. He, in the fifth century, rather dismissively writes:
It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth.
— Augustine, Enchiridion, sec. 112.Hi
When Augustine described the Universalists as “indeed very many” (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a “vast majority” (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies. And though Augustine himself didn’t affirm this doctrine (although he did in the beginning [Ibid.].), he at least recognized that Universalism, or the “theory of apokatastasis,” was quite an influential doctrine in his day and the centuries that preceded him.
A quick snapshot of the most influential early Christian Universalists, from Patristics scholar Ilaria Ramelli, certainly reinforces Augustine’s admission:
The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.Hi Anthony
Good website. My understanding of universalism is that all will be saved in the end.
From the article:
The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
So what is the apokatastasis theory?
Also, Eusebius, precisely like Origen (see especially in Homilies on Jeremiah 14.18 and Commentary on Matthew 17.19), read Peter’s words in Acts 3:21—which he repeatedly cites—as a reference to the eventual universal restoration. In Against Marcellus, he explains Peter’s expression, “the times of universal restoration,” as the world to come, in which all beings will receive their perfect restoration:
What else does the expression ‘until the times of apokatastasis’ [ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως] indicate to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration [δεῖ πάντα τῆς τελείας τυχεῖν ἀποκαταστάσεως]? [. . .] On the occasion of the restoration of absolutely all beings [τῆς ἀποκαταστάσεως ἁπάντων], as Paul says, the creation itself will pass on from slavery to freedom. For he says: ‘Creation itself will be liberated from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God,’ (etc).
Against Marcellus 2.4.11Me:
Universalism has been given a bum rap by the infusion of thought such as all will not be responsible for the sins they commit and the integration of other religious thought from even non Christian religions. This is not true universalism.
Hi Gene,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgment).
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-29.htm
Comment: Damnation in John 5:29 means judgment. This is the resurrection at the end of the thousand years and not at the beginning when the church members receive new bodies. But the spiritual resurrection of the church occurs at John 5:25. It is the resurrection of the begotten. The individual church members are saved at their deaths or at the beginning of the messiah’s return to earth if they endure to the end. Otherwise, they will receive judgment at the end of the thousand years.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Those in the millennium will live to be a hundred. Judgment comes at the end of the 100 years. Judgment is now on the church of God.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 herefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Eph 4:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Me: As long as we continue in Christ, we shall never die. Follow the spirit in your spirit minds and forgo the flesh.
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