How the Lake of Fire and the Second Death Brings Salvation

This topic contains 110 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #833562
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

     

    The purpose Here is to show that the Lake of Fire and the Second Death bring about Salvation.  I know this sounds outrageous and is contrary to what most  accept and believe.  That is the way I love it.  The first part that needs to be established is that God will save everyone.  The second part is how God focuses on how the lake of fire and the second death play a part in this.  Last, that the unforgivable sin is not forgiven in this age and the next as the proper interpretation is, not forever and ever.

    God is love.  He would never punish anyone with everlasting torment nor with everlasting death.

    Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

    Me: Isn’t  the Messiah good like God is good.  No one is as good as God is good.  He has infinite perfect love.  If you do not have infinite perfect love, you are not good.  You may not considered  bad because God has justified you, but you are not and never will have infinite love.  You may grow in love forever and approach infinite love, but will never get there.

    1 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    1 John 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God 8...God is love…12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

    Me: “love is perfected in us” does not stop when we are born again.

    Psalm 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7  I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    Me: Begotten in Psalm 2:7 implies everlasting growth.

    Psalm 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

     

    #833565
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

     

    First, we need a foundation. Does the bible say that all are saved eventually? Let God’s word answer that.

    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/save-all.html

    Article:
    1. The Justification and Making Righteous of All

    Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

    Me: In verse 19, all men are justified by Christ. Yet in verse 19, “many” were made sinners and “many” were many righteous. We know all were made sinners.  So many  does have to mean all. If you view “many” from the context of Verses 18 and 19, many has to mean all. In other words, all is not a few but all is many.

    Article: 2.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Reconciliation of All to God.

    “For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in Him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens” (Col. 1:19-20).
    Reconciliation means the removal of all alienation and enmity, thus making peace.

    Me:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Click on the link below: Then click on 4982 above “might be saved”.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-17.htm

    bring…safely (1), cured (1), ensure salvation (1), get (1), get well (2), made…well (6), made well (5), preserved (1), recover (1), restore (1), save (36), saved (50), saves (1), saving (1).

    Me: In light of the definition, I feel the right one for John 3:17 is “will be saved” instead of “might be saved”. There is no “might be” in the definition at all.

    Therefore:

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him will be saved.

    Article:
    3. The Vivification of All.

    “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE. But each in his own ORDER; Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ’s at his coming; then the end [ORDER]. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (See 1 Cor. 15:20-26).
    The making alive in this passage is more than resurrection alone. It is a making alive beyond the power and reach of death as will be seen from the experience of Christ the FIRSTFRUITS, and those who are Christ’s at His coming. Resurrection may be only to mortality as in the case of Lazarus, etc. Making alive here is unto incorruption and immortality (1 Tim. 6:13-16; 1 Cor. 15:50-57).

     

    Me:

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Me: So what does  “alive”  in the about verse mean. It means the opposite of death, or here eternal death, because without Christ’s resurrection all men are in a state of extinction (1 Cor 15:17-18). If death means eternal death here, life means eternal life here.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (by which) all have sinned:… 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

     

    #833566
     Truthcomber 
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    https://www.churchathome.org/articles/gods-seven-annual-holy-days.html

    From the author:

    God gave Israel the Ten Commandments at Sinai on the day of Pentecost (Ex. 20). It was also the beginning of God’s Old Covenant “marriage” relationship with Israel (Ex. 19:3-8; 24:8). Anciently, Pentecost was known as the festival of “firstfruits”—celebrating the beginning of the barley/wheat harvest (Ex. 23:16; 34:22). As a physical type, this pointed to the spiritual harvest of mankind by God—the firstfruits of which are the Church (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4).

    Beginning on the 15th day of the seventh month—as the sixth holy day of the year—is the Feast of Tabernacles, or Feast of Ingathering (Ex. 23:16; 34:22; Lev. 23:34). This seven-day festival pictures the period know as the Millennium—the 1000-year reign of Christ and the saints (Rev. 20:4-6). Only the first day is a high day. The name “Tabernacles” reflects back on Israel’s wandering in the wilderness and points to the temporary nature of this life as saints look forward to the age to come; the designation “Ingathering” points to the fact that the Millennium will be a time when all mankind will be brought to salvation.

     

    Me:

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which (3195. melló: were) a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Click on the link below. Then click on “1510” above “are”. One of the definitions are “was” which is a better fit then “are” since the crucifixion (Passover) was fulfilled already by the “body of Christ” being crucified and risen from the dead (Heb 10:4-5,10).
    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-17.htm

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Me: Notice in 1 Cor 15:23 it is “Christ the firstfruits” which is plural and signifies Christ and all those bonded to him as one, his church. “afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming” signifies the rest of mankind. It is not Christ himself as the firstfruits and then his church. This leaves out the rest of mankind.  It is Christ and his church first and then the rest of mankind that are saved.

    #833578
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    Yes we have seen such folly offered in the past.

    A hopeful dream for some.

    #833579
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Chosenone tried to sell us this snake oil.

    A few tweaks of truth here and there and it starts to almost seem reasonable.

    But it is just another pernicious heresy.

    #833581
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Remember that ALL does not always mean everyone.

    For example it sometimes means the REMNANT. All who have survived.

    And bear in mind that the words of the apostles are written only to the saved, and do not apply to the world.

     

    #833583
     Anthony 
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    Hi  ALL…..

    II challeng anyone, including theologians and Bible scholars, who believes in the doctrine of eternal torture in hell, to show us how their belief can be reconciled with Colossians 1:15-20, without adding to or taking away from its clear inspired meaning. God bless

    #833584
     Anthony 
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    Hi Nick

    The Greek word for all is pas, which is used 1243 times in the New Testament. We have examined almost every verse where pas has been used. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the context immediately makes it clear to whom or to what, all or every refers. Yes, there are scriptures in the Bible where the context shows that the Greek word pas (all) is used as a figure of speech or hyperbole and it does not mean absolutely all. Also, there are a few verses in the New Testament where the context of the verses does not immediately make it clear to what or to whom pas is referring, such as Matthew 3:5-6 in the KJV, and all those who believe in hell have seized upon such verses to explain away all verses that uphold the truth of universal reconciliation and salvation. God bless

    #833585
     Anthony 
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    Hi ALL

    Colossians 1:15-20
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 

    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence. 

    19 For it pleased the Father that in Himallthe fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcileallthings to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.  God bless ALL

    #833586
     Anthony 
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    Hi ALL

    Ephesians 1:9-10
    9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth – in Him.

    #833588
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    Acts 3:19-21
    19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

    #833589
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    The Jesus Christ and the martyrs did not all suffer and die in vain.

    The way of Jesus Christ was not specified without a cause.

    The warnings were not given without a reason.

    Neither was the gospel spoken in vain.

    God takes a crop from creation.

    Futility is of carnal man.

     

     

    #833590
     Anthony 
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    Hi ALL

    Isaiah 45:22
    Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other

    Psalm 98:1-3
    1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things; His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory. 2 The LORD has made known His salvation; His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations. 3 He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel; All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

    The hand and arm in Psalm 98:1 means Jesus Christ

    #833591
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Col 1.1

    ‘From Paul, who by God’s will is an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy-

    TO God’s people in Colossae, WHO ARE OUR FAITHFUL BROTHERS IN UNION WITH CHRIST:’

    Check the context.

    #833592
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi Anthony,

    Eph 1.1

    ’From Paul, Who by God’s will is an apostle of Christ Jesus –

    TO God’s people in Ephesus, who are faithful in their lives IN UNION WITH CHRIST JESUS:’

    Check who these words are addressed to and apply to before offering them to the world.

     

    #833600
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Anthony,

    So you are declaring an amnesty and telling men that all are forgiven without repentance and baptism into Jesus?

    Does this apply also to the devil and the false prophet who are in the lake of fire?

     

    #833602
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi Anthony,

    You seem to understand scripture that Nick doesn’t.

    #833603
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 646

    Hi Nick,

    You: Yes we have seen such folly offered in the past.
    A hopeful dream for some.

    Me: Nope,

    Thanks for the scripture to back up your thoughts. You have only stated what you believe, not any proof that the scriptures I have stated and carefully analyzed are inter connected  and prove a point. Go over the scriptures in the whole context of the posts I had laid down and show me why they are incorrect. Please do not use a hundred different posts to scatter your thoughts. It is folly to those that do not understand.

    1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

     

    #833604
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 646

    Hi Nick,

    You:
    Chosenone tried to sell us this snake oil.
    A few tweaks of truth here and there and it starts to almost seem reasonable.
    But it is just another pernicious heresy.

    Me: Still no analysis and a coherent argument with a bunch of scriptures to prove you are right—just your one liners as always that always prove nothing. Go over the verses together with the thoughts behind them to show that you are right and I am wrong. At least snake oil you can see.

    #833605
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 646

    Hi Nick:

    You: Remember that ALL does not always mean everyone.
    For example it sometimes means the REMNANT. All who have survived.
    And bear in mind that the words of the apostles are written only to the saved, and do not apply to the world.

    Me: This shows your ignorance and blindness. The words of the apostles are written for the saved now and the saved later as I have and will show you. The small harvest is now, the great harvest later as I have shown you.

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Comment: It is God that chooses those whom he calls and when to follow him.. It is not anyone who wishes to choose to follow God.  It is God that chooses. If you believe otherwise, you are vain and self deceitful.

    Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Comment: It is those that God has opened  their minds  to the truth that truly seeks God. If your eyes and ears have been closed by God, you are not really seeking the truth and don’t understand, no matter how much you read and research.

    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

    Comment: God wants only a small group to be saved now. Why does God do it this way?

    Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Comment: Not all are chosen by God in this generation to be kings and Priests with the Messiah.   Not all can.

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