Giving up trying to live the christian life

[Spock]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 24 2012,19:27)

Thanks Guys No other religion or faith can get me to God Salvation is only through Jesus. Of this I am certain My situation is one of wrestling against sinful habits. Failure to overcome these has led me to despair How can I be a christian and still do these thing, is a question in my mind I pray  for victory but I dont change Guys I will reflect on the encouraging words It helps to know that others have been where. I am I will NOT give up Thanks

Hi Guncher,

I was once where you are, I took the twelve steps. I continue to take them. You can research to find out the appropriate 12 step program for your habit.

Weather it's sex addiction, drug or alcohol addiction or any other instinct of the flesh gone wild:

1) you can't do it alone, having others in a group searching for Gods will and power is essential.

2) you must be willing to undergo radical change, not just a little self improvement. That is what the renowned psychologist Carl Young explained to the patient who would eventually lead to the establishment of the 12 step programs. You must want to become a different person, because the same person will continue to do the same thing.

3) In prayer we ask what Gods will is for >us< instead of telling God what our will is for him.

Hope that helps.

Colter

[Stu]

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 25 2012,11:49)

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 24 2012,19:27) Thanks Guys No other religion or faith can get me to God Salvation is only through Jesus. Of this I am certain My situation is one of wrestling against sinful habits. Failure to overcome these has led me to despair How can I be a christian and still do these thing, is a question in my mind I pray  for victory but I dont change Guys I will reflect on the encouraging words It helps to know that others have been where. I am I will NOT give up Thanks Hi Guncher, I was once where you are, I took the twelve steps. I continue to take them. You can research to find out the appropriate 12 step program for your habit. Weather it's sex addiction, drug or alcohol addiction or any other instinct of the flesh gone wild: 1) you can't do it alone, having others in a group searching for Gods will and power is essential. 2) you must be willing to undergo radical change, not just a little self improvement. That is what the renowned psychologist Carl Young explained to the patient who would eventually lead to the establishment of the 12 step programs. You must want to become a different person, because the same person will continue to do the same thing. 3) In prayer we ask what Gods will is for >us< instead of telling God what our will is for him. Hope that helps. Colter

And what would you recommend for people who are not abjectly desperate?

Hopefully not christianity. That's like offering a dinner guest manure because it is good as a fertiliser.

Stuart

[Spock]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 25 2012,18:25)

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 25 2012,11:49) Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 24 2012,19:27) Thanks Guys No other religion or faith can get me to God Salvation is only through Jesus. Of this I am certain My situation is one of wrestling against sinful habits. Failure to overcome these has led me to despair How can I be a christian and still do these thing, is a question in my mind I pray  for victory but I dont change Guys I will reflect on the encouraging words It helps to know that others have been where. I am I will NOT give up Thanks Hi Guncher, I was once where you are, I took the twelve steps. I continue to take them. You can research to find out the appropriate 12 step program for your habit. Weather it's sex addiction, drug or alcohol addiction or any other instinct of the flesh gone wild: 1) you can't do it alone, having others in a group searching for Gods will and power is essential. 2) you must be willing to undergo radical change, not just a little self improvement. That is what the renowned psychologist Carl Young explained to the patient who would eventually lead to the establishment of the 12 step programs. You must want to become a different person, because the same person will continue to do the same thing. 3) In prayer we ask what Gods will is for >us< instead of telling God what our will is for him. Hope that helps. Colter And what would you recommend for people who are not abjectly desperate? Hopefully not christianity.  That's like offering a dinner guest manure because it is good as a fertiliser. Stuart

Stu,

At least you're consistently pessimistic, negative and mean spirited. Those are the fruits of the Atheist faith.

For those who do not have the “gift of desperation” you can simply expect more of the same.

The faintest flicker of Faith is all that is required; belief in a power greater than yourself. Religion is not a requirement to have a relationship with the indwelling spirit of God. In fact, institutionalized religion can be a hindrance to having a personal relationship with the living God.

God does not coerce or invade the sanctity of our will, for the intellectually self sufficient, God waits for the great day of “realization” when such an individual becomes sufficiently dissatisfied with such a dead end life and begins to be open to the leading of the indwelling spirit.

Even people like you Stu who have spent so many years all over the internet working against God.

Colter

[Ed J]

Hi Colter,

Excellent post!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Guncher]

Stuart
I know nothing about you. Would you be willing to share whatyou believe
It is easy to attack anothers belief
I meet each week with an Atheist, Buddhist, Spiritist. We talk about our beliefs, and disagree on some matters. But we have all learned to listen to each other with respect
I , even though I disagree with my friends, would never laugh at them or be nasty
Please express to me what you think life, creation, desth etc is all about
Kind Regards

[Lightenup]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 24 2012,03:27)

Thanks Guys No other religion or faith can get me to God Salvation is only through Jesus. Of this I am certain My situation is one of wrestling against sinful habits. Failure to overcome these has led me to despair How can I be a christian and still do these thing, is a question in my mind I pray  for victory but I dont change Guys I will reflect on the encouraging words It helps to know that others have been where. I am I will NOT give up Thanks

Hi Guncher,
I am glad that you realize that there is not an assortment of faiths that can get you to the Father.

Jesus said that He was the way, the truth and the life and that no man can get to the Father except through Him.

Christianity is the only faith or it is an imposter faith. It is no way, one of the many to choose from. You are correct!

I am going to give you a link to a ministry that may offer some help and accountability for you:

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/

God bless you on your journey for freedom to that which holds you captive!

[942767]

Hi brother:

Quote

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

And the things of this world are temporal, and what God is promising here is for an eternity. Do you want to give up now and miss out on what God has promised.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Stu]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2012,14:24)

Hi brother: Quote 1Cr 2:9   But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. And the things of this world are temporal, and what God is promising here is for an eternity.  Do you want to give up now and miss out on what God has promised. Love in Christ, Marty

Wouldn't it be more ethical to reject the immorality of vicarious atonement through human sacrifice, and the immorality of compulsory love on pain of permanent destruction by fire?

You might have greedy thoughts of eternity that can't be substantiated as true and are essentially based in wishful thinking, but I wouldn't be comfortable about it being an ethical way to live.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 25 2012,23:56)

At least you're consistently pessimistic, negative and mean spirited.

I may or may not be some or all of those things.

But at least I am not an apologist for plagiarism.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 26 2012,03:09)

Stuart I know nothing about you. Would you be willing to share whatyou believe It is easy to attack anothers belief I meet each week with an Atheist, Buddhist, Spiritist. We talk about our beliefs, and disagree on some matters. But we have all learned to listen to each other with respect I , even though I disagree with my friends, would never laugh at them or be nasty Please express to me what you think life, creation, desth etc is all about Kind Regards

Thank you for asking.

I have had many discussions with christians over the past several years, some online and some face-to-face. A few of those people have even been qualified in theology (if you can call that a qualification). I feel I have been patient and tried to learn as much as I can about the huge variety of belief that falls within the term “christian”.

On the topic of respect, by the way, one of the few threads I have started here was on some abominable Catholic doctrine and the response said it all about how much respect people here have for Catholicism, and presumably Catholics, as one example of the hypocrisy of christians demanding “respect”. I feel respect should be earned, and christianity hasn't earned mine. I am especially amused when I am called a sinner. Strangely no christian seems to be able to tell me what my wrongdoing has been. Perhaps they fear a libel suit!

Anyway, I have never believed in Imaginary Sky Friends, although I do pretend they exist for the purpose of conversation, but I have reached several conclusions about religious faith in general and christianity in particular.

It is pretty clear to me that christianity is a meme, a cultural idea, that is transmitted by platitudes, meaningless words that sound impressive but prey on the known weaknesses of the human brain, for example our “sense of the numinous” and our really poor grasp of probability.

I am fairly sure we are genetically predisposed to god belief but we can't define what gods are because otherwise the evolutionary adaptation of god belief wouldn't work. In our past it was probably very important that tribal leaders could appeal to the non-specific threat of a wrathful god in order to suppress egos and make the tribe work together. Of course in our globalised world that way of thinking is disastrous, and this is one reason I think god belief is dying – it's natural selection at work.

So, is there anything of value in christianity? More to the point is there anything good we can specifically attribute to christian belief? I can't think of anything. I might stop and think about Matthew 7:12, but even the golden rule has been done better by others in the centuries and millennia before the First Century.

Is there anything bad that derives from christian belief? I don't need to even prime your imagination – you have thought of at least three examples already, I bet. As Steven Weinberg puts it, good men do good, evil men do evil, but to make good men do evil takes religion.

As for faith, I can't see how that is a virtue. Why should it be a good thing to believe stuff despite there being no evidence in support, and especially when there is evidence to contradict the belief? That just sounds like deluded people thinking wishfully.

I don't think I am being nasty to people, actually. I never make personal comments or use abusive language. I expect people to challenge any silly ideas I might hold, and I treat the absurd ideas of christianity in the same spirit. Many people feel that an attack on their religious views is a personal attack on them, but that isn't how it should be. The problem is that religions insist on people making the religion into their personal identity, so when it is questioned it is taken personally instead of a discussion of silly ideas.

Thanks for reading. Let me know if I can bore you with any more of my views!

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2012,19:06)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2012,14:24) Hi brother: Quote 1Cr 2:9   But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. And the things of this world are temporal, and what God is promising here is for an eternity.  Do you want to give up now and miss out on what God has promised. Love in Christ, Marty Wouldn't it be more ethical to reject the immorality of vicarious atonement through human sacrifice, and the immorality of compulsory love on pain of permanent destruction by fire? You might have greedy thoughts of eternity that can't be substantiated as true and are essentially based in wishful thinking,  but I wouldn't be comfortable about it being an ethical way to live. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

The fire is permanent, but eventually all the sin is going to get burned away. Like it or not, that is “The Truth”!

“Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions,
 that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing
 of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;” (Isaiah 33:14-15)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Spock]

Some of what is being discussed here, the easy pickings of the Atheist faith, is religions failure to update itself. Petrifying the Bible into “the word of God” is the making of a false idol. The books that comprise the Bible are simply mans biased, imperfect narrative about the “doings” of the “word of God”, it's not the word of God itself and never says so!! The “Word of God” is a living spiritual presence, it is living truth. Doctrine formation is a tempting, deadening of living truth.

Atheistic scientist (different from true scientist) are dishonest when they do not acknowledge the motive of a “materialistic philosophy” and “mechanistic cosmology” that underlies their endeavor. They claim open mindedness but at their core is a faith in Godlessness, and they will one day prove this to all the little stupid religious people. But they never will, because no matter how far they go, they come right back around to first cause.

True science merely destroys the imperfect, superstitious elements of religion while exposing the more purified spiritual content of religion.

Colter

[Stu]

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 26 2012,23:41)

Some of what is being discussed here, the easy pickings of the Atheist faith, is religions failure to update itself. Petrifying the Bible into “the word of God” is the making of a false idol. The books that comprise the Bible are simply mans biased, imperfect narrative about the “doings” of the “word of God”, it's not the word of God itself and never says so!! The “Word of God” is a living spiritual presence, it is living truth. Doctrine formation is a tempting, deadening of living truth. Atheistic scientist (different from true scientist) are dishonest when they do not acknowledge the motive of a “materialistic philosophy” and “mechanistic cosmology” that underlies their endeavor. They claim open mindedness but at their core is a faith in Godlessness, and they will one day prove this to all the little stupid religious people. But they never will, because no matter how far they go, they come right back around to first cause. True science merely destroys the imperfect, superstitious elements of religion while exposing the more purified spiritual content of religion. Colter

Just as well none of us are “atheistic scientist” then (what christian sect is that?).

I agree that science exposes religion.

Stuart

[Spock]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2012,23:57)

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 26 2012,23:41) Some of what is being discussed here, the easy pickings of the Atheist faith, is religions failure to update itself. Petrifying the Bible into “the word of God” is the making of a false idol. The books that comprise the Bible are simply mans biased, imperfect narrative about the “doings” of the “word of God”, it's not the word of God itself and never says so!! The “Word of God” is a living spiritual presence, it is living truth. Doctrine formation is a tempting, deadening of living truth. Atheistic scientist (different from true scientist) are dishonest when they do not acknowledge the motive of a “materialistic philosophy” and “mechanistic cosmology” that underlies their endeavor. They claim open mindedness but at their core is a faith in Godlessness, and they will one day prove this to all the little stupid religious people. But they never will, because no matter how far they go, they come right back around to first cause. True science merely destroys the imperfect, superstitious elements of religion while exposing the more purified spiritual content of religion. Colter Just as well none of us are “atheistic scientist” then (what christian sect is that?). I agree that science exposes religion. Stuart

Religion explains so called “science”, it's exposes the sophistry of the materialistic philosophy.

And whatever the fruits of your science are Stu, it still hasn't solved your overall unhappy disposition.

Colter

[Guncher]

Hi Stu
Yes respect has to be earned
My son is an atheist and on occasions mention the trouble that religion has caused. I wholeheartedly agree with him
There isa book written called Foxe's Book of Martyrs. It describes how Catholics burned Protestants and give versa. It made me sick

I have a favourite song called Imagine, by John Lennon the bit where he says no religion hits the spot for me

Having said that the world owes a lot to people inspired by their christian beliefs.
Regards

[Stu]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 27 2012,05:14)

Hi Stu Yes respect has to be earned My son is an atheist and on occasions mention the trouble that religion has caused. I wholeheartedly agree with him There isa book written called Foxe's Book of Martyrs. It describes how Catholics burned Protestants and give versa. It made me sick I have a favourite song called Imagine, by John Lennon the bit where he says no religion hits the spot for me Having said that the world owes a lot to people inspired by their christian beliefs. Regards

So the key questions are:

Would those people have felt inspired if christianity had never been invented?

Has the net good achieved by the people inspired by religion outweighed the wholesale abuse of human rights and human dignity that has also been inspired by religious belief?

I think we would have been much better off without the Abrahamic religions. They are each an abomination when it comes down to it.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Colter @ Nov. 27 2012,01:42)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 26 2012,23:57) Quote (Colter @ Nov. 26 2012,23:41) Some of what is being discussed here, the easy pickings of the Atheist faith, is religions failure to update itself. Petrifying the Bible into “the word of God” is the making of a false idol. The books that comprise the Bible are simply mans biased, imperfect narrative about the “doings” of the “word of God”, it's not the word of God itself and never says so!! The “Word of God” is a living spiritual presence, it is living truth. Doctrine formation is a tempting, deadening of living truth. Atheistic scientist (different from true scientist) are dishonest when they do not acknowledge the motive of a “materialistic philosophy” and “mechanistic cosmology” that underlies their endeavor. They claim open mindedness but at their core is a faith in Godlessness, and they will one day prove this to all the little stupid religious people. But they never will, because no matter how far they go, they come right back around to first cause. True science merely destroys the imperfect, superstitious elements of religion while exposing the more purified spiritual content of religion. Colter Just as well none of us are “atheistic scientist” then (what christian sect is that?). I agree that science exposes religion. Stuart Religion explains so called “science”, it's exposes the sophistry of the materialistic philosophy. And whatever the fruits of your science are Stu, it still hasn't solved your overall unhappy disposition. Colter

Methinks you complain too much.

Are you feeling alive to the astonishing, and hopefully only rarely depressing reality of the one life you know you will live?

As they say, as long as you are living yours. I'd add that it is worthwhile trying to live ethically.

Plagiarism and getting someone else to die for your wrongdoing don't count as ethical in my view.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 25 2012,00:25)

I guess you should just carry on beating yourself up for being a human then. Stuart

Well better than beating yourself up for being an ape. My guess is you would knock yourself out.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 27 2012,08:14)

Hi Stu Yes respect has to be earned My son is an atheist and on occasions mention the trouble that religion has caused. I wholeheartedly agree with him There isa book written called Foxe's Book of Martyrs. It describes how Catholics burned Protestants and give versa. It made me sick I have a favourite song called Imagine, by John Lennon the bit where he says no religion hits the spot for me Having said that the world owes a lot to people inspired by their christian beliefs. Regards

Gincher. Atheism which is also a religion is equally guilty of such crimes.

Stalin was an Atheist.
Mao was an Atheist.
Hitler believed in Evolution and took his evolutionary right to dominance very seriously. He even likened Jews to being closer to apes than Aryans and sought to overtake their ecosystem through annihilation.

The real answer is that all men regardless of belief are capable of great evil. But only some of us are aware that evil and sin is within us. Those that do, often seek God for help while others do not.

So we are all the same in the sense we share the same nature. But some of us accept God's gift of salvation, while others don't for whatever reason. Then each of us die and then comes the judgement of our lives.

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