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yeah ,cannot be denied does it ? no
look this one ‘;2PE 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
Kerwin…….I have posted that before several times over the past years, yes that is a supporting scripture, and the rest of what Paul said there also, where he said ” you would say then why does he find fault seening who can resist his will, and Paul’s reply was yes, but who are you O man that replies against God has he not power over the lump of clay to make from the same lump whatever he choses one he makes a vessel of mercy another he makes a vessel of wrath for the purpose of showing that he has both mercy and wrath.
Chosenone posted thees scriptures, Eph 1:11…in him in whom our lot is cast also, being “designated beforehand”, according to the purpose of the one who is operating all in accord with the council of HIS WILL”.
Now if it is his will what does our so-called freewill have to do with it.
Ephraim 2:10 For we are “his” workmanship, “created” in christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” Can we say we are the creators now?, because our pride wants us, to hang on to our own individual identity as so-called freewillers making our own “freewill salvation” choices?
Most hate that saying because it strip them of there own self control, which they believe is free but far from it. We are saved by grace and that not of ourselves, it is a gift from God, and we need to completely understand that. It completely eliminates boasting about our so-called freewill choices saving us and gives our salvation to where it belongs to the LORD our GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Gene,
All the rest do not really say anything that supports that we lack free will. We clearly have free will despite the fact God created the will we exercise freely. It is not a random will as that is not free will. It appears that God created some of us to choose to reject his will and others of us to choose to accept his will and he did that only because it was needful for all righteousness to be complete.
Kerwin……yes if God created us to except his will or reject it, then our wills are captivated wills, and we react accordingly right, so that means our wills are driven in a direction , hardly representing a will that is “ITSELF” FREE. I AM NOT SAYING WE DO NOT HAVE LIBERTY TO EXERCISE OUR CAPTIVATED WILLS. SO WE DO HAVE FREEDOM TO EXERCISE OUR WILLS IN THAT SENSE, BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WILL’S “THEMSELVES” BEING FREE. That is my only point here.
Peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Gene,
What Paul is teaching us is that God created us so we have nothing to boast of. The definition of free will is that you exercising your will and not the will of another party outside of yourself. A computer does not have free will, nor does a puppet, nor does any soulless creature. Beast, according to the definition of Scripture though not necessary that of science, and humans have free will.
Ask to see who and how many believe they created their own will as it is like saying I of my own will created my own will. The closest to that I know is to say I of the will of my mind submit the will of my flesh to God, reference to Roman 7 and Jesus’ words.
Kerwin……a computer will perform exactly as it was programed , so will all things in creation, everything performs as it is made even man as well. Again I have never said we do not have a will that has no liberty to exercise it desires. I again, am talking about the very will “ITSELF”, NOT WHAT GOD ALLOWS IT TO DO.
Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gene,
Computers operate on math even when they make choices. A leaf is carried by the wind and the waves. Humans make choices just like computers do but not always by the number. They can also choose to be carried along by the wind and the waves of their environment. Some were created with a hunger for doing all God commands and others were created with a hunger to do less than that. Even at the time they were created they had to choose those things necessary to feed their hunger.
Kerwin…….True and it is the hunger that makes them will, “blessed is he who hungers and thrust after righteousness he shall be filled”. AGAIN wills are driven and not free themselves. IMO
peace and love to you and yoyrs…………………gene
Gene,
It is the will of the mind that does the driving even as it drove Jesus to submit the will of his flesh to God’s will.
Kerwin……I have no problem with what you have said aboutt b e will being driven, it only proves my piint.
Peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Gene,
My point is it is something internal to each of us that leads to the choices we make. I at the same time concede God made everything we are though we make our own choices.
Kerwin…….i agree with that , it is something internal that leads to the choices we make and also forms our wills, so then the choice is driven right? And if the will is a result of that driven thing, then that driven then causes us to will, so then the will itself is indeed captivated by what’s driving it correct?
Peace and love to yours…………………gene
Gene,
My point is that think is the person because it is of the person and not from something outside the person.
Free will requires options. God put the tree of life and the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was an important part of allowing mankind to choose a path. He never forced them to eat from either and he even warned them not to eat of the tree of good and evil because he didn’t want them to.
If you cannot figure that out Gene, then most of the Bible will not make sense to you and perhaps is why or partly why you have an opposite view on most things.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see that God gives us the ability to freely choose. The fact that you are confused about it all doesn’t mean that other people are. Listening to others is good, but most listen not to learn but to reply. Everytime you post in this subject you bring out this confusion for all to see.
The wise listen to learn. Continuing to try and win a debate even when you fail miserably at it is not wise. A wise person learns from others. God speaks through people too, so ignoring all people results in ignoring God too.
The bible teaches us clearly that we are responsible for our decisions. No way round it Gene. If you are trying to justify yourself by creating a doctrine that passes on that responsibility to someone else or something else, then you are not being responsible. Adam blamed the woman, the woman blamed the serpent, and you blame the lack of free will. How about blaming yourself when it was you who made that bad decision?
Hi Gene,
Does your “will” have LIBERTY?
or is your “will” captive?To say it has both is an OXYMORON.
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODGene,
This is a correction of my prior post to you as I miss-spoke and used the word “think” for “thing”. I am bolding the correction.
Gene,
My point is that thing is the person because it is of the person and not from something outside the person.
Note: the thing I a speaking of it that which drives a person’s choices.
T8……in you explanation about Adam and Eve having a free will, you leave off that they were “influenced” to disobey GOD” “commandment” to them to not eat of the tree. He never said it was up to them to decide if they would or not eat of it, they through the thoughts put in their minds by Satan “CAUSED” THEM TO DSIRE IT AND AS A REST TO WILL TO DISTORY GOD. That was not a so-called freewill choice, it was an influence choice, planted by SATAN. That propensity was there created there by God, that they did not choose either because it was created by God in them man was made able to be influenced by his suroundings, and that is what God wants us to overcome with his help, because man can not do it on his own by any so-called freewill choices. We have to be “CREATED” UNTO GOOD WORKS. Now go and figure out what that means T8.
There are MANY scriptures that show GOD CAUSED PEOPLE TO CHOSE DIFFERENCE THING , I HAVE listed MANY, MANY, OF THEM LIKE , JEREMIAH , King Cryus, John the baptist, Jesus,the apostle Paul, Moses, how could God predestine anyone if it’s all about mans so-called ‘freewill” which is not even a bible word, nor does any scripture in the entire bible say OUR WILL ARE “FREE” COMMON SENSE SHOULD TELL YOU IF OUR WILL WERE FREE THEY SIMPLY WOULD NOT BE A WILL NOW WOULD THEY. AS FAR AS US BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR INFLUENCED ACTIONS, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR WILL BEING “FREE” THEMSELVES. IF God can CREATE A VESSEL OF WRATH OR A VESSEL OF MERCY, AND cause it to exist, how does your ideology deal with that?, it doesn’t now does it?
Produce a single scripture that says a man has been given a “FREEWILL “, DON’T JUST TALK ABOUT THE LIBERTY TO CHOOSE, BUT SHOW A SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT THE WILL IS “FREE” ITSELF, AS A FACT. Fact is, if it’s all about a will that is free, then God must have given us the, TEN IF YOU CHOOSE TOO, INSTEAD OF THE TEN “COMMANDMENTS” HE would have left it all up to us, to decide our fate, why take out of us “our hard hearts and Give us soft hearts, and write his law in our inward parts”, if it is all about us choosing “FREELY” his way, by our own so-called “freewill”.
ALL WHO HOLDING ON TO THERE OWN FREEWILLS ARE EGOTISTICAL BEINGS, WHO WILL NOT SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF GOD , UNLESS THEY WANT TO THEMSELVES OF COURSE, they are, I GOD”S. AND CAN BRAGE THAT THERE OWN “FREEWILLS” SAVED THEM. They have done exactly what Satan wanted them to do, they have become a God unto themselves. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
T8…..the above should have read, “as a result, they willed to disobeyed God”.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Hi Gene,
Does your “will” have LIBERTY?
or is your “will” CAPTIVE?To say it has both is an OXYMORON.
Care to reply?
To whomever it may concern,
Matthew 26:39Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
This passage brought to my mind the hypothesis that a human being might have two wills.
Romans 7:25Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
These words seem to go towards confirming the hypothesis.
I do not think I understood Matthew 26:39 correctly on this point but Romans 7:25 seems to speak of a conflict between two different sources of desire within a human being. An internal conflict that only Jesus can rescue us from.
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