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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2010,18:42) Kerwin………..If Free doesn't not mean one is free from his desires and thoughts then the person is not really FREE at all and neither is HIS WILL because a Will is the expression of a man or womens desires and Thoughts. Nothing FREE about it. That is why Scripture does not say we have “FREE WILL (IN) Us because no such thing exists. peace and love…………………………….gene
geneyou say;;………..If Free doesn't not mean one is free from his desires and thoughts then the person is not really FREE at all
———————————————-this is wrong free does not mean that one is free from our desires and thoughts;
it only means that we are freed of sin ,because Jesus sacrifice
and that now we have access to redemption,so now we have two options;pick to serve God or not,
before there was only the road to vanity,now there is also the road to the wisdom of GOD,and it is that choice we take in our free will;or free choice of responsibility. same thing.
Pierre
Pierre,
Sorry for my absent mindedness. I was answering Gene and did not check to see where he obtained that passage from or what version he used.
The closest I know of is:
Proverbs 19:21(NIV) reads:
Quote
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2010,20:23) Pierre, Sorry for my absent mindedness. I was answering Gene and did not check to see where he obtained that passage from or what version he used.
The closest I know of is:
Proverbs 19:21(NIV) reads:
Quote
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
kerwingene ,invent scriptures,
Pr 19:20 Listen to advice and accept instruction,
and in the end you will be wise.Pr 19:21 Many are the plans in a man’s heart,
but it is the LORD'S purpose that prevails.Pr 19:22 What a man desires is unfailing love ;
better to be poor than a liarthis is the question;;;God does all things after the counsel of his own will
so you are not even close and so is Gene
Pierre
Gene,
Could you please give us the version of scripture and location of the passage:
Quote God does all things after the counsel of his own will Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2010,19:51) Gene, Could you please give us the version of scripture and location of the passage:
Quote God does all things after the counsel of his own will Thank you!
Kerwin ……….Here it is brother…………..Eph 1:11 ….> In whom also we have obtained and inheritance, being (PREDESTINED) according to the purpose of him who (WORKS ALL THINGS) after the counsel of (HIS) OWN WILL.peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 20 2010,06:57) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2010,19:51) Gene, Could you please give us the version of scripture and location of the passage:
Quote God does all things after the counsel of his own will Thank you!
Kerwin ……….Here it is brother…………..Eph 1:11 ….> In whom also we have obtained and inheritance, being (PREDESTINED) according to the purpose of him who (WORKS ALL THINGS) after the counsel of (HIS) OWN WILL.peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
kerwinthis is my version;Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,NIV
this is more clear,can you understand this verse Kerwin ?
Pierre
Kerwin……….Check it out for yourself , nearly all the translation have it just like the KJV with few exceptions. Even the one Terricca uses is still saying the same thing , he just doesn't seem to understand it is all. IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Pierre,
What I understand is that there is more than one way to translate that passage and the translators bias led them translate it as they did.
I am not actually seeing the difference in the ideas expressed by either variation. I also do not see where your understanding of it disagrees with Gene's since neither you or Gene disagree about predestination nor do you disagree that God's purpose and actions are Good and righteous.
So what are you seeing that I do not?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2010,15:02) Pierre, What I understand is that there is more than one way to translate that passage and the translators bias led them translate it as they did.
I am not actually seeing the difference in the ideas expressed by either variation. I also do not see where your understanding of it disagrees with Gene's since neither you or Gene disagree about predestination nor do you disagree that God's purpose and actions are Good and righteous.
So what are you seeing that I do not?
kerwinif you are in agreement with Gene thats fine with me it is your decision not mine.
i have discuss this with Gene and disagree in is views of predeterminism
and freewill,and preexistence of Christ,and some other topic,this would make me to start those discussions from scratch.
i am getting to old for that.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 20 2010,09:57) this would make me to start those discussions from scratch.
i am getting to old for that.
Pierre,
Gene is not the best at communicating hid ideas so perhaps you should listen to his description before assuming it fits into what you consider predetermination. Gene believes that humans make decisions based on their own desires and thoughts. Where does that fit in with the common definition of predetermination?
I merely pointed out that you and Gene do agree on at least some points. You agree on predestination, not predetermination, and you agree that God’s purpose and actions are good and righteous. I also believe you both agree that God’s purpose will prevail over man’s.Am I in error on what you believe? Gene, I ask that question of you as well.
As for my beliefs, I believe the desires of our soul will determine our final fate and that God created our soul as well as the rest of us. So I believe predetermination and free choice can coexist together.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2010,23:06) Pierre, Gene is not the best at communicating hid ideas so perhaps you should listen to his description before assuming it fits into what you consider predetermination. Gene believes that humans make decisions based on their own desires and thoughts. Where does that fit in with the common definition of predetermination?
I merely pointed out that you and Gene do agree on at least some points. You agree on predestination, not predetermination, and you agree that God’s purpose and actions are good and righteous. I also believe you both agree that God’s purpose will prevail over man’s.Am I in error on what you believe? Gene, I ask that question of you as well.
As for my beliefs, I believe the desires of our soul will determine our final fate and that God created our soul as well as the rest of us. So I believe predetermination and free choice can coexist together.
kerwinIsa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.i do not see what you say ,that God created Satan;
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
this just shows God saying he made light and so made darkness;this is obvious enough.
now he says he make peace and by doing so he as create evil,this is also obvious enough .your interpretation is wrong i have never see this before this as nothing the do with Satan.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:this verses as nothing to do with the interpretation you are given it,
of cause God does what he wants but for a reason and it is explain in the fallowing verse,why do you only read part of a verse to twisted to your own mind.Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;in this verses you quote is the truth spell out clearly ,why so you cut it up for the purpose of your own mind.??god purpose was to save men from the beginning and use his son to fulfil it.SO ?
counsel means advise it also obvious that God give advice .God will ,will always be done, with us accepting is grace or not, the effect will be only to us because we did not accepted so we die,but if we accepted we live ,this is were there is a difference.
but we are free to chose.that s a fact.and it is our will to do it ,all is of God ,what that statement as to do with free will ,God as created all things do not know that much ? he also as created as free to chose between good and evil. so if we have a choice we have free will.
if not then we are robots and fallow orders as per the buttons are pushed.as for your comment “save yourselves” just because we have free will ,we are not saved this is ridiculous to think that .
Christ said ;there are two doors a big one and a small one did he not say that we can pick which door we want to go through,if you can not chose why making two doors??
think about it free will is only direct related to our responsibility of choice between serving God or not.
I CAN NOT SAY IT ANY BETTER SO THAT 'S IT ,IT IS UP TO YOU TO UNDERSTAND IT.YOU ARE FREE IN YOUR WILL (DESISION)
ANY ONE WHO EVER READ THE BIBLE ONES KNOW THAT GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY AND HE DOES WHAT HE HAS A PLAN AND IT WILL BE THAT PLAN ACCORDING TO IS WILL THAT WILL BE DONE,
THE QUESTION IS HOW WE GET ON BOARD AND BE PART OF THAT PLAN,WE KNOW GOD HAS PREDETERMIND HOW IT ALL WILL PLAY OUT ALAWAY TO THE END,BUT WITHOUT THE FREE WILL OF PEOPLE TO CHOSE THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD WILL NOT RIGHTEOUS, THIS IS WHY GOD ,CHRIST ,THE APOSTLES ,AND THE SCRIPTURES ARE ALL INVITHING US ALL TO COME FREELY TO RECEIVE THE TRUTH OF GOD TROUGH CHRIST SACRIFICE,
THIS IS A INVITATION SO NOT COMPULSERY ,NO OBLIGATION, WE HAVE TO CHOSE WHAT WE WANT.
capital letters are only to separate
Pierre
I posted this before but it explains why I believe we have a choice in what we do:
Quote Predestination – What I've concluded best aligns with scripture is:
When God gave to man, the dominion of the earth, He did just that. And in doing so He limited Himself in what He is able to do on earth to accomplish His will without overridding man's dominion, He was left with; what he had set in place at creation (more later), what He can accomplish through His people (those from all the ages who have chosen to be obedient) and finally to exerting influence upon all people (not by forcing them, but by moving in their situations to achieve His desired result).As to the major “interventions” of God, I believe they were actually put into motion at creation, some examples are:
* The flood possibly started by a meteorite crashing into the earth
* The ten plagues of Egypt could have been caused by a volcano in Greece
* The parting of the sea was due to winds, landslides, or some other mechanism not currently understood
* The geography of Sodom and Gomorrah was such that it was destined to suffer a natural disaster fitting the description given
* The walls of Jericho were build on ground that through some natural occurrence would fail and cause the walls to collapse due to the vibration caused by the marching and a shout of a million or so people.
* An asteroid somewhere out there has planet earth in it's future path to fulfill being the one predicted in revelation.Once again, trying to be clear, I believe that God limits His direct intervention to; natural occurrences (arranged by Him at creation, prior to giving man dominion), those He can accomplish through His people by their faith, (such as floating axe heads, curing ills, confusing enemies, etc.), and through maneuvering the ungodly into situations so that their choices, accomplish His will.
Now with all that said, God's plan for my life was not (in my opinion) detailed at the foundation of the world, however I believe that God has various plans for us, a perfect plan but due to human weaknesses will most likely fail, a good plan which could succeed (despite my weaknesses) with a concerted effort on my part, and an acceptable plan which contains many of my failures but by His grace includes my salvation. God will work within the limits He has set, He does not force us or directly intervene without those having the dominion (man) making a request (through prayer).
Now I believe that satan and his cohorts achieve some level of dominion through mostly the ungodly whom they can easily deceive, but also through the Godly as they fail to be obedient to God. There have been times that satan has tried taking a more active role but has lead to a response from God when they cross some line (chains in darkness type thing).
Now, I believe, God knows what will happen in my life, that at times I will be deceived and make wrong choices, sometimes, He will do all that is possible within His restraints to try and help me make the right decision, other times He allows me to make wrong decisions without even a whisper when going through it accomplishes a greater good (for me or others).
In the end God is glorified because He left man with dominion (we wouldn't have really had it if He would have taken it back right after the fall) and despite having limited Himself to an apparent disadvantage to satan, He has displayed for all how satan could never be like the Most High even in an environment and with people that give him all the advantages (weak as the flesh is).
This also explains the evil surrounding us and why God does not intervene (beyond stirring His people to fight it).
This postulation seems to be in line with the whole of scripture (as best as I can remember it), but I would appreciate others input as to where I might of missed something (and of course I could be totally wrong but it sure seems to fit, to me anyway)
My opinion – Wm
TO ALL………………Right and wrong has always existed and will always exist, You decision or mine of what is right or wrong is futile at best, because they, right and wrong have already been disclosed and describe by GOD, He has laid them out for us all to see. Now the question is which do we do?, the already existing good or the already existing evil, both have existed for ever. it is like right or left, up or down, these have always existed. There is none themselves righteous no not one, there is only those who walk in the way of what is right or wrong , we do not by our own so-called “freewill” decide what is right or what is wrong that has already been laid out for us all, it is a matter of doing or obeying those existing ways. God alone is the determiner of what is right and what is wrong not anyone else. HE HAS TOLD YOU O MAN WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. All who hate GOD hate His dominance in His creation they are SELF WILLED, all who Love GOD love his control and dominance in HIS CREATION and Their LIVES. BUT man want to be a GOD unto HIMSELF and therefore Hate GODS control in his or her life and hangs onto their own so-called “free wills” a will of separation from GOD, the same mind that was in Adam and Eve, they have not learned to put their wills to death yet. Nor have they submitted to GODS WILL. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………….gene
Pierre,
The passage from Isaiah 45:7 uses the word “evil” as the name of disastrous vents such as earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, and the like. God obvious did not create evil desires as they are rebellion against him. He does suffer their existence and thus may be said to create their results. He does all these in his striving to shape men into the image of His Son, even in those cases he knows he will fail, he does that so none can claim they not given a just and fair opportunity.
God did create Satan upright and Satan rebelled. God created Satan with a soul that loved sin but a Spirit that was completely holy. Satan freely chose to give into the desires of his soul and so blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. God foreknew that Satan would freely choose the path of wickedness and God used that knowledge as part of his plan. In fact God would not have created Satan had Satan’s free choices endangered his plan in any way.
God did the same with man. Some men have a soul that loves righteousness and others have a soul that loves wickedness. Originally mankind was also given a righteous spirit but man in the form of Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God and so demonstrated that the creation of mankind was not complete. God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind. I believe he did this because Satan requested it after God boasted about mankind; similar to case involving Job. When Jesus taught the parable of the wheat and the tares he stated Satan planted bad seed in the field. Those that love sin are the bad seed while the good seed are those that love righteousness.
Some call this a stacked deck or predetermination and perhaps it is. All I know is that God created us to freely make choices according to our own desires, beliefs, knowledge, and intellect. I do not see it as unjust that God created us and so created the abilities and desires that lead us to choose what we choose. I also know God wants everyone to be saved and so he reluctantly created those who would not be only because they were needed in the refinery process of those that would be.
Evidence is that Jesus was given the authority to know the desires of an individual’s soul but from what I know he is the only human so gifted by the Holy Spirit.
This is my beliefs, which are at odds with Gene’s. You seem to think they are the same if I correctly understand what you posted.
Gene,
Are you making the point that God is the author of what is good and that all evil is rebellion against God.
Are you also stating that those guided by their own wills are in rebellion against God as they reject the voluntary choice of submitting to his will?
If that is all the points you were making I do not disagree.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 20 2010,23:37) TO ALL………………Right and wrong has always existed and will always exist, You decision or mine of what is right or wrong is futile at best, because they, right and wrong have already been disclosed and describe by GOD, He has laid them out for us all to see. Now the question is which do we do?, the already existing good or the already existing evil, both have existed for ever. it is like right or left, up or down, these have always existed. There is none themselves righteous no not one, there is only those who walk in the way of what is right or wrong , we do not by our own so-called “freewill” decide what is right or what is wrong that has already been laid out for us all, it is a matter of doing or obeying those existing ways. God alone is the determiner of what is right and what is wrong not anyone else. HE HAS TOLD YOU O MAN WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. All who hate GOD hate His dominance in His creation they are SELF WILLED, all who Love GOD love his control and dominance in HIS CREATION and Their LIVES. BUT man want to be a GOD unto HIMSELF and therefore Hate GODS control in his or her life and hangs onto their own so-called “free wills” a will of separation from GOD, the same mind that was in Adam and Eve, they have not learned to put their wills to death yet. Nor have they submitted to GODS WILL. IMO peace and love to you all………………………….gene
Hi Gene,It's not our wills that must be put to death, but the 'ego'!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2010,17:17) Pierre, The passage from Isaiah 45:7 uses the word “evil” as the name of disastrous vents such as earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, and the like. God obvious did not create evil desires as they are rebellion against him. He does suffer their existence and thus may be said to create their results. He does all these in his striving to shape men into the image of His Son, even in those cases he knows he will fail, he does that so none can claim they not given a just and fair opportunity.
God did create Satan upright and Satan rebelled. God created Satan with a soul that loved sin but a Spirit that was completely holy. Satan freely chose to give into the desires of his soul and so blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. God foreknew that Satan would freely choose the path of wickedness and God used that knowledge as part of his plan. In fact God would not have created Satan had Satan’s free choices endangered his plan in any way.
God did the same with man. Some men have a soul that loves righteousness and others have a soul that loves wickedness. Originally mankind was also given a righteous spirit but man in the form of Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God and so demonstrated that the creation of mankind was not complete. God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind. I believe he did this because Satan requested it after God boasted about mankind; similar to case involving Job. When Jesus taught the parable of the wheat and the tares he stated Satan planted bad seed in the field. Those that love sin are the bad seed while the good seed are those that love righteousness.
Some call this a stacked deck or predetermination and perhaps it is. All I know is that God created us to freely make choices according to our own desires, beliefs, knowledge, and intellect. I do not see it as unjust that God created us and so created the abilities and desires that lead us to choose what we choose. I also know God wants everyone to be saved and so he reluctantly created those who would not be only because they were needed in the refinery process of those that would be.
Evidence is that Jesus was given the authority to know the desires of an individual’s soul but from what I know he is the only human so gifted by the Holy Spirit.
This is my beliefs, which are at odds with Gene’s. You seem to think they are the same if I correctly understand what you posted.
kerwinIsa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.do you not understand this?
God did not create Satan he did not create Adam corruption
God formed the light and because of it some of his creation have gone astray,
because God as given men prosperity men engulf themselves in wickedness,and so God as to destroyed them.
Pierre
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