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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2010,09:15) Gene, Irene quoted:
Quote Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Do you agree this scripture is stating those that hear the message of life or deaths are free to choose either path?
If not please explain why it should not be taken literally. Thank you!
kerwin, yes I do. We have the free will to choose good or evil. To choose Bread or noodles. To choose anything we want. That is my free will to do so…..Even though Christ did not say frree , when He cam down from Heaven, not do His own will, but the will of God that send Him. Is that not the same will as our will. We in a sense are like Christ, because we have given our lives to God and do everything in our power to do good…I don't know if we ever be excatly like Christ……..But that is still our free will, to be like Christ…. Do you agree with that?……Peace and Love IreneGene,
You are correct that God commanded them to choose life and yet they freely chose to disobey them. They chose to disobey because they loved the darkness. Those that desired in their soul to be righteous as God are righteous and so believe what God states even when bound to an impure spirit.
Why do we choose what we choose? We choose to believe what God states because we desire to do all he commands. That is the only influence I know on that choice though the sinful nature can be an obstacle that God will overcome when the time is right. The choice between sin and righteousness is guided by either an impure or pure spirit. The desires of the soul determine which you will choose providing you have both. One makes their choices dependent on both internal and external factors which they consider before making their choice. These factors are not controlling. The only control is one’s own impure spirit and that only if one has not fully matured in Christ. Even then the impure spirit is at least a major part of one’s own will and thus does not deprive you of freedom of choice.
Why do you conclude that God shaping us into the image of Christ as evidence we lack the freedom of choice? In fact God uses are freedom of choice to shape us which is why he tests our hearts even with the foreknowledge of what we will choose. We learn the difference between good and evil through our own and others' choices. We also learn the consequences. This knowledge causes us to change and if that change is to be more Christlike then it shows God is working in us. Even in those who choose to rebel God strives to teach them righteousness but their souls reject the change for good. Even these wicked individuals God uses to his good purpose.
God created me. He did not create me to choose randomly. I am confident he created me to love righteousness. Others he created to love darkness. I freely choose according to how God created me and either the pure or impure spirit. The choice is free because both my soul and spirit are part of me. The impure spirit is the result of mankind seeking many schemes despite God creating us with a Holy Spirit. Since God created me what boast do I have?
Kerwin……So the question is did Adam and Eve “freely” Chose to disobey GOD without any Cause bringing it about .
Gen 3:4……….> and the serpent said unto the woman, you shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day you eat (take to yourself) thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be (AS A GOD), knowing good and evil.
Now notice this Kerwin 3:6………> and (WHEN) the woman (SAW) that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes,and a tree to be (DESIRED) to Make one (WISE), she took of the fruit thereof and did eat and gave unto her husband with her;and He did eat.
Now where is FREEDOM (IN) HER Working> She was held captive by her thinking and Her desires and Lusts. Nothing “FREE” About it.
Now lets ask ourselves was the women out of Just free will thinking decide to take of the fruit or was it out of desire and wanting to be like GOD and Be Wise that (CAUSED) Her to eat of it. a Will that was FREE had nothing to do with it , but a Will that was driven by it own desires and lusts in the Women caused her and Adam both to eat. again people get having liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED WILL) is one thing but to say they have a FREE WILL in them is another. Non of the Wills (IN) us are FREE, if that were the cause we would not do anything because we would have no will at all. Will are products of Influences and Desires they are No some random passing whim we may have, No they are definitely drive by influences and desires in man and GOD also. All will are captivated wills it is just who's Will is Captivating our lives is it our or GOD WILL. The very word WILL means it is not a FREE thing (IN) US or it simply would not be a WILL, now would it?
You are right God did create you and He did not create you to “Chose (RANDOMLY) as a FREE-WILLED person Would, but through teaching and experiences we are learning to Adjust our thinking and thus our Wills to conform GOD'S WILL nothing Free about a definite process of CAUSE and EFFECT> There is not such thing as a WILL that is “FREE” it simply does not exist in GOD or Man. God does not give anyone permission to Chose, He commands our Choices , but man hates the thought of that because they are rebellious and don't want God to tell them anything. They want to Chose it all on their own, so they suffer until they die serving their own egos. They have not submitted themselves to God but want their own FREEDOM to be there own masters of there destines. IMO
peace and love……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,15:33) Kerwin……So the question is did Adam and Eve “freely” Chose to disobey GOD without any Cause bringing it about . Gen 3:4……….> and the serpent said unto the woman, you shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day you eat (take to yourself) thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be (AS A GOD), knowing good and evil.
Now notice this Kerwin 3:6………> and (WHEN) the woman (SAW) that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes,and a tree to be (DESIRED) to Make one (WISE), she took of the fruit thereof and did eat and gave unto her husband with her;and He did eat.
Now where is FREEDOM (IN) HER Working> She was held captive by her thinking and Her desires and Lusts. Nothing “FREE” About it.
Now lets ask ourselves was the women out of Just free will thinking decide to take of the fruit or was it out of desire and wanting to be like GOD and Be Wise that (CAUSED) Her to eat of it. a Will that was FREE had nothing to do with it , but a Will that was driven by it own desires and lusts in the Women caused her and Adam both to eat. again people get having liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED WILL) is one thing but to say they have a FREE WILL in them is another. Non of the Wills (IN) us are FREE, if that were the cause we would not do anything because we would have no will at all. Will are products of Influences and Desires they are No some random passing whim we may have, No they are definitely drive by influences and desires in man and GOD also. All will are captivated wills it is just who's Will is Captivating our lives is it our or GOD WILL. The very word WILL means it is not a FREE thing (IN) US or it simply would not be a WILL, now would it?
You are right God did create you and He did not create you to “Chose (RANDOMLY) as a FREE-WILLED person Would, but through teaching and experiences we are learning to Adjust our thinking and thus our Wills to conform GOD'S WILL nothing Free about a definite process of CAUSE and EFFECT> There is not such thing as a WILL that is “FREE” it simply does not exist in GOD or Man. God does not give anyone permission to Chose, He commands our Choices , but man hates the thought of that because they are rebellious and don't want God to tell them anything. They want to Chose it all on their own, so they suffer until they die serving their own egos. They have not submitted themselves to God but want their own FREEDOM to be there own masters of there destines. IMO
peace and love……………………………gene
Geneyou have your opinion on freewill,but you use your freewill not to answer many quotes,
you not only use it you abuse it your free will.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,08:33) ……So the question is did Adam and Eve “freely” Chose to disobey GOD without any Cause bringing it about .
No Gene,The question is……….”While balancing the influences of what God commanded against the lies Satan was telling her, did Eve still have the free will to make her own choice about eating from the tree?”
mike
Mike…………Eve just as you and all people take the choice which INFLUENCES YOU the MOST. Nothing “FREE” About it a WILL yes. But it is a will driven by self reasoning and INFLUENCES and THEREFOR is not “FREE”> Simple even a Child could understand this. Liberty given by GOD for us to us our (INFLUENCED and CAPTIVATED WILLS) is not the same as Us having FREE WILLS Working in Us . In order for us to change god Has to work (IN) us for that to Happen. “FOR GOD WORK (IN) US BOTH TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS ) GOOD PLEASURE” . so if God has to (WORK) (IN) Us to exercise (HIS) Will How is that a FREE WILL if someone is (CAUSING) us to WILL HIS Way. That is why it say we are CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS, why because we could never Chose it by our Captivated WILLS which are Far from being FREE.
peace and love……………………………….gene
Gene,
You wrote:
Quote Now where is FREEDOM (IN) HER Working> She was held captive by her thinking and Her desires and Lusts. Nothing “FREE” About it.
One’s will is the result of one’s thinking, desires, and lusts but since all these motivations come from one’s self they are not considered restrictive on free choice.
You wrote:
Quote No they are definitely drive by influences and desires in man and GOD also
The outside influences of God and others do restrict the choices by controlling the factors involved but a person still has free choice as far as the choices they are presented with. Some choices that affect an individual and the choices they face and make are made by someone or something else.
You wrote:
Quote You are right God did create you and He did not create you to “Chose (RANDOMLY) as a FREE-WILLED person Would….
Free will simply does not mean a person makes random choices as random choices are not free. In order to be free a choice must be made by the individual. Will is the individual’s purpose which is free of outside control. You can also call it voluntary choice.Kerwin……..What you are not seeing i believe is “so a man thinks so he is”. We are the result of our thinking and what ever that thinking is is what we (WILL) to do. That is what makes up OUR WILLS it is OUR THINKING going on (IN) our MINDS Nothing FREE About IT, that is why scripture does use the WORDS “FREE” WILLS , but only say OUR WILLS and GOD'S WILL , why not OUR FREE WILL and GOD'S FREE WILL, because none of those exists, ONLY WILL nothings FREE about them. Gods will is not a free will either “FOR HE DOES ALL THING AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL”. Just think about the word Council and that will give you the answer all will are counseled will by our thinking. Our Will are being constantly counseled by our thinking nothing “FREE about it. WE are given (LIBERTY) to DO THOSE COUNSELED WILLS. So people confuse that as us having “FREE” WILLS (IN) Us, which is simply not true. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
I give up on this one Gene. I don't see the issue of “free will” as something that could keep us from God.
I showed you that Eve most definitely made a free will choice after balancing the influences of what God said against what Satan said.
Discoursing with you is like beating my head against a wall sometimes. You are set in your ways, and unwilling to change despite the massive amounts of logic and scriptures others show you.
This topic isn't as important to me as the life altering pre-existence topic, so I will continue the head banging in that topic and let this one slide.
peace and love,
mikeMike………The very subject of being FREE WILLED (IS) what keep people from GOD in many way it was what happened to Adam and EVE they wanted to be FREE from GOD and Be a GOD unto themselves to decide for themselves, so they exercised their Will as being FREE from GOD'S WILL, this attitude of Self “FREE WILL thinking is my point, to me it is what separates us from God it is where all this separation teachings started from, it was there in the beginning with Adam and Eve. IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2010,05:00) Adam and EVE they wanted to be FREE from GOD and Be a GOD unto themselves to decide for themselves, so they exercised their Will as being FREE from GOD'S WILL
And therein lies the truth of the matter Gene. “They exercised their Will as being FREE from GOD'S WILL”. These are YOUR words Gene. And those words prove, that while it was the WRONG decision that they made, they did in fact “exercise their OWN FREE WILLS” to make that wrong decision.peace and love,
mikeGene,
Do you understand what I write? When I say will I mean the self will of a person. You claim that a person’s self will, aka purpose is affected by their own desires and thoughts and I point out that is why it is called self will. I admit I did not write the word “self” but implied it by my other words. Free on the other hand merely means free of the control of anyone else but oneself. It does not mean freedom from those factors that affect the choices one faces and makes. Those factors may limit and or influence your factors and may be controlled by someone other than yourself. You can call it a voluntary will or a counseled will but still is the same as what I mean when I say free will.
I also believe we have free choices that are not controlled by our will or God’s will. One of these it to freely choose, directed by our own soul’s desire, whether or not to summit to the rule of God’s will rather than our own.
God does all things after the counsel of his own will which merely effects the factors that we face and make but these factors do not control our thoughts and desires unless we freely choose to let them. Instead it is our own thoughts and desires taking into account those factors that freely determines what we choose.
kerwin
you say ;;God does all things after the counsel of his own will which merely effects the factors that we face and make but these factors do not control our thoughts and desires unless we freely choose to let them. Instead it is our own thoughts and desires taking into account those factors that freely determines what we choose.
were in scriptures it says ;God does all things after the counsel of his own will ;;?
Pierre
Mike…………You got it wrong Adam and Eve exercised their Captivated WILLS that broke them Free from GODS WILL . Nothing to do with them Having a “FREE” WILL working (IN) Them at all. You still are getting the fact that GOD allows us to exercise out Captivated WILLS , You thinking that mean we poses FREE WILL (IN) Us which is not true at all.
peace and love…………………………………gene
Kerwin………..If Free doesn't not mean one is free from his desires and thoughts then the person is not really FREE at all and neither is HIS WILL because a Will is the expression of a man or womens desires and Thoughts. Nothing FREE about it. That is why Scripture does not say we have “FREE WILL (IN) Us because no such thing exists.
peace and love…………………………….gene
Gene,
You assume English is a literal language and it is not. Self willed would probably be a more appropriate name for the idea of free will. On the other hand you are accusing the proponents of free will idea of believing that humans have no will and therefore are subject to random factors. I greatly doubt any supporters on this site of the pure free will idea do believe that. I agree with you that those who believe in your idea of free will are in error. I also thing all the other posters here also agree on that point.
Kerwin………..Indeed SELF WILLED is what drives People, but that only proves there is nothing “FREE” about it. Kerwin i have never said Human do not have WILL i Know we all DO even Jesus Did and stile does. That is not my point , my point is how does those Wills work. Is it through a “FREE” Operation or through a (INFLUENCED ) Operation. I have not argument with GOD allowing Us to “FREELY (to a point) Exercise those (INFLUENCED ) WILLS , My argument is are those WILLS “FREE” in and of themselves. The answer is no they are not. I think you so understand what i am saying Kerwin.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Gene,
I do indeed understand what you mean about our choices being controlled by our own wills or souls but that is what people who support free will also believe. To that point you are agreeing with most if not all those who post on the subject of free will.
It is my impression that many argue with you because they understand your objection to mean we are puppets under the complete control of God with only an illusion of self will. I cannot see how you believe that and are a proponent of self will.
I have concluded from watching the debate and observing your side and that of those that support the later view that you both are focusing on the words “free will” and being distracted from the ideas each other is actually supporting.
This is causing the conversation to stick in the mud and go nowhere and so it does not serve God’s purpose.
Posted: Oct. 18 2010,17:58
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kerwin
you forgot to respond to this please do,you say ;;God does all things after the counsel of his own will which merely effects the factors that we face and make but these factors do not control our thoughts and desires unless we freely choose to let them. Instead it is our own thoughts and desires taking into account those factors that freely determines what we choose.
were in scriptures it says ;God does all things after the counsel of his own will ;;?
Pierre
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