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Carmel,
The words of Scripture do not have the power to overcome the delusions of the human mind. Only the Spirit of God can do that. Therefore seek to obtain and live by the Spirit for the letter brings death.
Lightenup
Even if you prefer the word possession, it does not change the fact that “kana” is referring to a possession which was obtained or “got” not something that you always had. That is why so many translations speak about wisdom having a beginning, however, you can continue to view it to say what you want. In the end you are correct, it only means one thing.
Considering that Christ said that his Father was his God, that Christ is the image of God (image = not original) that Christ is described as the only begotten Son (a Son is subordinate to a Father; begotten means fathered or born) which was the only one that came directly from God, thus the only begotten. Considering this fits perfectly with the word usage in proverbs of wisdom (the preexistant christ) being brought forth. And we know Christ is wisdom because God created the world through wisdom, and it is also written that the world was created through Christ reaffirming Pauls statement, “Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” Also considering the many many points that the Christ shows the Father being greater than he, suggests Christ had a beginning at some point.
As for your scripture citations, it could very well be or even likely that these verses also have Christ in mind… it fits what I just said. But remember not every inference of wisdom is Christ. He is described as wisdom because he personifies that trait, he possesses that characteristic just as he is also the Word and possesses the trait of communicating God. But if he does and if he is the image of God, it stands to reason God also embodies these traits and has all these powers in himself as well…. that is why there is no great mystery when God spoke in the heavens when the Word was here in the flesh. The last verse you quoted speaks of the general characteristic of wisdom just as there is worldly wisdom but even if it didnt we know from proverbs 8:14 that wisdom is also understanding… “I am understanding”…
I would say your friend is mixing words. Surely God did create a plan and the Christ was the plan but this chapter is not describing the plan, but rather who christ was/is. To say otherwise is twisting words.
True, they have different meanings but create encompssses begat. You have several sons, at one moment they did not exist… then they did. That is being created. Begat means being fathered or born but still falls under create.
You are correct, I am in my late 20s and I was baptised by a brother who also follows the way. The true church does not have borders.
Im sorry for not replying sooner.
Hi A,
Christ means anointed one.
The anointing is by the Spirit of God.
The Word is of the Spirit and thus is eternal.
Carmel…….Your just giving me you churches indoctrination, you simply following their teaching, which appears to have little if any scriptural support. You must bse your understanding from the spirit, not church dogmas, you have bought into hook line and sinker.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
Carmel…….Satan wants people to move Jesus away from them personally identifying with him as purely being a human being “exactly” the same as we are. He is trying to breake down the power of God the Father in our mindes toward us all, so he wants us to belive Jesus was not truly one of us human , so he created the “Image” of jesus being another God. So we would not truly believe we can come to the “measure and the “full” stature of Jesus” the Christ. 2 Ths2 the “Lie” mentioned there is abot the false “Image” of Jesus being a GOD.
If you are following Catholic churches false teachings of the trinity and reciting the Mary mother of God thing you are in error and great deception. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
Jesus said I have made known all the father has said to me, In john jesus prayer for the church john 17 ;3 that they may know you the only true God.
Nick
Hi A,
Christ means anointed one.
The anointing is by the Spirit of God.
The Word is of the Spirit and thus is eternal.
I am not sure where you stand my friend or what you exactly believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If Christ is wisdom which proverbs 8 speaks about it is difficult to say he didnt have a start at some point in eternity… but then I doubt that it matters if he was born from God at some point or if he was always with God. The main thing is to recognize who the true God is, that is to say the Father and the one He sent, the Christ.
@Anastas
you said:The main thing is to recognize who the true God is, that is to say the Father and the one He sent, the Christ.
Agreed…touche’! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Genebalthrop
I have always been curious to know what biblical unitarians thought about hebrews when it says:
God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,
2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
And
For in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
How does one say that these verses do not shown that the Christ preexisted? I am genuinely interested in your response.
Anastas,…..wisdom is an atribute it is not or ever was a person. Using the word for a women metaphor does not mean it is a real women, nor is it Jesus christ, that is not to say Jesus or anyone else as far as that goes canot have wisdom as an atribuite. Be careful of metaphoric language used in scriptures it can really trip you up brother.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Wisdom is an attribute and has always existed as God has always existed. For could there ever be a time when God was not wise? Hardly. However, we would be unwise not to see what is written and the similarities.
Corinthians 1:24 christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Brother Paul calls Christ wisdom. Keep that in mind.
Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, for in him all things were created
So Christ was born first. You may say “firstborn” is referring to a title, which it also could be, but since it harmonizes with proverbs 8:22 when it says “Jehovah formed me in the beginning of his way.” It would be wise to accept it with a double meaning for both are supported by scripture.
Now you can see Christ made all things (God created through Christ)
Proverbs 8:27-31 speak of wisdom creating the world as Gods master workman.
So now we have Christ being called wisdom and both wisdom creating the world as well as christ creating the world.
Now consider the similarities in proverbs 8:32-36 between what we know of Christ and wisdom.
“For blessed are they that keep my ways.”
“Blessed is the man that heareth me”
“Whosoever findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favor of Jehovah”
He who sinneth agsinst me, wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
One would look at this and say christ were speaking these things for all of these apply to what he said of himself, yet this is wisdom speaking. So if Christ is called wisdom, is described as doing the same things as wisdom, and speaking the same words as wisdom but of himself, it would only be prudent to accept the one talking as the Christ.
Anastas…….do a Greek word search on the word “through” used there it can be just as easely be translated as for him, God created these things. All physical creation was created for man kind, Jesus is the first to have achieved this Goal God has in mind for us all. Lets do a little scripture search here Ok, I think this might add some light on this.
Let’s consider man kind in a general sense. Now by mankind i am including the anointed man Jesus along with us all.
Heb 2:5……For unto the angels has he (God) not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6, But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man that you are mindful of him? Or the son of man, that you visit him? 7, You (God) made him a “little” lower then the angeles; you crowned him with glory and honour, and did set him over the works of your hands: 8, you have put “all” things in subjection under his (mankinds) feet. For in that he (God) put “all” things in subjection under his (mankinds) feet, there is “nothing” that is not put under him (mankind)……..that is what God has in his plan for “all” of mankind…now lets continue, But now (right now) we see not “yet” all things put under him (mankind in a general sense) 9, But (what do we see?) We see Jesus (who is also a man from mankind) who (like us) was made a “little” lower then the angels (like us) for the suffering, of death, (like us) “now” crowned with glory and honour; that by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now look carefully a verse 10…. for it became him, (GOD) for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in brining many sons unto glory, (for the purpose of that) to make the captian (the man Jesus) of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
So you can see in order for Jesus to inherit “all” things, and have glory and honour he had to be another ordinary human being, anointed by God to carry out and recieve what God the Father has in mind for us all. He is just the first to have attained that glory and honour and have all things under his (a son of mans ) feet.
WE ALL HAVE THAT VERY SAME POTENTIAL AS JESUS, just as it says, “untill we all come to the measure and “full” stature of CHRIST” AND AGAIN “we are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus the Christ or anointed on.
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
@Anastas
We possibly agree, although you probably forgot a comma which would mean we don’t agree.
You said:The main thing is to recognize who the true God is, that is to say the Father and the one He sent, the Christ.
I would agree if you were saying that the true God is the Father and Christ. You may have missed a comma, idk.
Also, the wisdom of God can not be created or destroyed or it is not and never has been the ‘wisdom of God. It would be a created wisdom which will always be less than always existent wisdom. See what I mean?
Jesus IS the wisdom and power of God.
If Jesus were the created wisdom and created power of God, that would be impossible. Created wisdom would be wisdom that had a beginning and God’s wisdom would not have a beginning, otherwise it would be less than God’s wisdom. The same with created power. Created power will always be less than the power of God. Jesus is the wisdom and power of God. He is NOT the lessor wisdom and lessor power of God. Understand?PBTB,
There are many understandings for that word
Yes, that is my point. You can often get the appropriate meaning from the context of the passage.
.Satan wants people to move Jesus away from them personally identifying with him as purely being a human being “exactly” the same as we are. He is trying to breake down the power of God the Father in our mindes toward us all, so he wants us to belive Jesus was not truly one of us human , so he created the “Image” of jesus being another God.
Gene,
Thanks for your good advice!
But in the same time, SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR:
Matthew 7:3Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? 4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
NOW! One simple question!
Was it possible that an ordinary sinful person from this planet be the ransom for the entire sinful persons of this planet, past present and future!
If that particular person is also
SINFUL, MORTAL, AND SUBJECT TO SATAN!
THEREFORE THAT PARTICULAR PERSON HIMSELF IS PART OF THAT RANSOM TO BE PAID?
OR IS IT RATHER THAT, THAT PARTICULAR PERSON BE:
BOTH NEUTRAL HUMAN, AND ALSO SPIRITUALLY DIVINE, TO MAKE IT MORE REALISTIC, AND A JUSTIFIED DIRECT ENCOUNTER AGAINST GOD’S ENEMY WHOM HE CONSIDERED HIMSELF GOD OF THE WORLD!
AND SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR:
John 13:16 Amen, amen I say to you: The servant is not greater than his lord;…….
John 15:20 ………….The servant is not greater than his master
Now regarding my Posts, I posted scriptures and also defined them, so:
IN ORDER TO PROVE WHAT YOU SAID IN THE ABOVE ,
I expect from you to do the same in EVERY WAY in order to be in level with me, and contradict me, and prove that what you believe is justified, and according to your own definition related to the same scripture I POSTED!
One last think!
WITH EVERY RESPECT!
DO NOT USE ANY MORE, WHEN YOU POST TO ME, SINCE I AM INTERESTED ONLY IN SCRIPTURAL MATERIAL IN GENERAL!
IMOS
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
When God begats, it is from his spirit. He is the Father of spirits. To be born of God is to be born of the spirit.
God is love. He is Spirit. He has characteristics or attributes.
When God begats from himself, then he gives life to another and if it is from himself, then he draws upon his own nature and character for who else does he draw the new person from.
If Wisdom was begotten, if Jesus is the truth, if the Word became flesh, then it is not too difficult to grasp that others beside God are described in terms of God’s own nature and attributes.
People just need to know the difference between an attribute and another living entity born or made in his image.
e.g., God is spirit. Angels are spirits. At some point angels were made from God. Spirit came from God, and creatures who are spirits were made to be like God, but are not God.
As for the Logos/Word. Second century writers put it like this: The Logos being begotten is like a fire giving rise to a second fire. When the first fire/torch lights the second one, it does not diminish in any way the first one.
Jesus is the image of God. He is not the first fire (so to speak) but came from the first one. Just as the woman came from the man, the Logos and Christ came from God.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.@t8,
God is spirit. Angels are spirits. At some point angels were made from God. Spirit came from God, and creatures who are spirits were made to be like God, but are not God.
I am not so sure that angels are made of spirit. Ghosts are called spirits in Scripture and they are souls that have no body. Angels are shown to have a body. Angels appear to human sight but in one case when an angel was not visible to human sight a donkey was able to see him. God is called the invisible god and we are told no one has seen him but that the one and only has revealed him. Ghosts are seen as the disciples believed Jesus was a ghost on two occasions that they saw him.
If angels are spirit than the spirit they are made of is different than the spirit ghosts are made of. God is not a soul as a ghost is so he is not made of the same thing they are. There is no evidence to support the idea that God can appear to sight as angels do except all things are possible for him. The bottom line is even given that both angels and God composed of spirit there is no evidence it is the same kind of spirit.
God is love. He is Spirit. He has characteristics or attributes.
God is spirit. Angels are spirits. At some point angels were made from God. Spirit came from God, and creatures who are spirits were made to be like God, but are not God.\
t8,
God THE DEITY is LOVE WISDOM AND POWER! ONE ENTITY!
THEN THE DEITY ALLOCATED
Love! actual love! A SPIRIT STATE OF LOVE! TO THE FATHER
But love ALL BY ITSELF could NOT CREATE!
So THE DEITY ALLOCATED wisdom, a spirit of wisdom, TO THE SON
But love and wisdom on their own could not CREATE!!
So THE DEITY ALLOCATED power, a spirit of power TO THE HOLY SPIRIT!
THEREFORE THE DEITY ESTABLISHED THE THREE FUNDAMENTAL PRIMORDIAL SPIRITS, LOVE, WISDOM AND POWER, THE LEAST NUMBER WITH WHICH THE DEITY COULD FURTHER CREATES!
NOTICE CREATES!
SO THESE FUNDAMENTAL PRIMORDIAL SPIRITS BELONG TO THE DEITY ITSELF, AND CAN ONLY EMANATE FROM THE DEITY, WITHOUT LOSING THE DEITY’S FULL POWER! AND THE DEITY ITSELF REMAIN IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE AND POWER!
INDIVIDUALLY, THESE THREE PRIMORDIAL SPIRITS, FUNCTION IN FULL HARMONY AND POWER, BOTH AS THREE, AND AS SINGLE BUT IN THE SAME TIME ALWAYS REMAIN IN FULL POWER OF THE THREE PRIMORDIAL SPIRITS!
Now the creatures, whether heavenly, or earthly, can and always function as a group of three, ONLY, in the concept of the three primordial spirits, LOVE, WISDOM, AND POWER therefore never SINGLE!
Therefore inferior to God!
like in our case!
SPIRIT, SOUL AND FLESH!
THREE DIFFERENT, GRADUAL, SPIRIT STATES,
Peace and Love in Jesus
Charles
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