- This topic has 6,414 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 1 week ago by
.
- Posts
The death sentence was not carried out immediately.
Adam listened to the word of the tempter, and having accepted his insinuations he fell into the
sin. In his case, why was the death sentence not carried out immediately?
Because a way to redeem it was found. The Only Begotten Son of God offered himself as
voluntary to take upon himself the sin of man and to make atonement for the
fallen race. There could be no forgiveness for sin if there was no atonement.
If God had forgiven Adam’s sin without atonement, the sin would have been
immortalized and would have been perpetuated as a boldness that would have had no restrictions (RH
4/23/1901)Berean: Before creating the heaven and the earth on which we live, God WAS IN HIS HEAVEN, WITH HIS SON AND HIS HOLY ANGELS.
AND THEREFORE THE RAQIYA WHICH HE MADE MUCH LATER WHICH IS BETWEEN THE TWO WATERS CANNOT BE THE PLACE OF GOD’S PERSONAL DWELLING.
That’s a very good point.
@t8
Proclaimer,
You said: God called the raqia heaven. And God dwells in heaven.In Gen. 1:8 God calls the firmament “heaven” (Hebrew shamayim). That turns out to give little additional definition to what the firmament (raqia) is, since in all the cases in Genesis 1 where God puts a name to something, there is never a one-to-one correspondence to the original word for the object and the subsequent name. For instance, God calls the primordial light “Day” (Gen 1:5). This does not mean that “light” and “day” are synonymous. Any thorough Hebrew lexicon lists a number of meanings for the Hebrew word for “light” and a different list of senses in which yom, the Hebrew word for “day”, is used.
“Heaven” is used in many senses of the visible sky and of the abode of God. Thus, we need to let context and usage inform our understanding of what shamayim and raqia mean in their specific occurrences. Sometimes “heaven” refers to some aspect of the physical sky and sometimes it does not. God was not homeless prior to the separation of the waters on Day 2. The fact that Gen 1:14-17 uses the compound phrase “the firmament of the heaven” further indicates that “firmament” (raqia) is not one-for-one synonymous with “heaven” (shamayim). The Israelites would understand this phrase to mean “the spread-out dome of the sky”.
This is from the article:
https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/was-the-expanse-overhead-in-genesis-1-a-solid-dome/Mike: Proclaimer, why did the psalmist tell the waters above heaven to praise Yahweh in verse four, and then later tell the clouds to praise Yahweh in verse 8?
What is your direct and honest answer? Thanks.
Proclaimer: There are a number of explanations…
I SINCERELY thank you from the bottom of my heart for your immediate and direct answer to the question I asked. I hope this becomes the new pattern that you will follow from now on. 👍👍👍
You listed 5 possibilities – but I’m only interested in your second one…
Proclaimer: 2. The psalmist has a Babylonian understanding of the cosmos, thus is just speaking from his view point which is not scientifically sound. Yes, ancient man lacked knowledge Mike. But knowledge was prophesied to increase. So he thought rain came from above and clouds were not the source.
That is the ONLY thing I’ve been trying for a year to get you to admit, Proclaimer. You admitted it freely at the very beginning of this thread, but then did a 180 and pretended like it was something you had never said. You are finally now admitting it again – which is all I ever wanted from you… your HONESTY.
And just in the last two days, you have admitted it three different times in three different ways.
First, you posted this meme…
This meme suggest that all the ancient cultures that believed in a flat and stationary earth with a domed heaven over it were pagan cultures… including apparently the Biblical worldview, as shown in the bottom right, next to NASA’s silly ball. But that image, listed as “Babylonian”, IS what the Bible actually teaches!
And now you just proved that by explaining that the writer of Psalm 148 (who clearly distinguishes “the waters above” from “clouds”) was “influenced by pagan Babylonian beliefs, which are not scientifically sound”. Then you followed that up with a direct claim that ancient man (including the writer of Psalm 148) lacked knowledge.
And THAT’S what you used to openly admit… that parts of the Bible are WRONG because it was written by ignorant sheep herders who didn’t understand how our world really is, and so just described things how they saw them from their own perspective.
Second, you posted this…
Proclaimer: So, why did Jerome translate raqia as firmament? The cosmology of Jerome’s day was the same as it was 6-7 centuries earlier when the LXX was translated, so Jerome probably believed the hard, transparent celestial sphere model best fit the day four description of where the heavenly bodies were. Therefore, Jerome probably concurred with the LXX and chose the appropriate Latin word firmamentum to translate stereoma.
It is true that the 70 Jewish scholars (experts in both Hebrew and Greek) who produced the LXX believed that the Hebrew word raqia referred to a hard, solid dome that covered the earth, and therefore translated the Hebrew word “raqia” with the Greek word “stereoma”. Jerome then translated “stereoma” with the Latin word “firmamentum” – which translates into English as “firmament”.
But what you’ve once again acknowledged by quoting this statement is that the Jews who translated the LXX, Jerome who translated the Latin Vulgate, and the AKJV translators all translated raqia as a hard, solid dome because they all WRONGLY believed in a flat and stationary earth with a domed heaven over it.
So you’re admitting that we ended up with “stereoma”, then “firmamentum”, and then the KJV’s “firmament” because all of these people were too ignorant and “lacking of knowledge” to understand that we “really live on a spinning ball orbiting the sun”.
And third, you posted your explanation that Psalm 148 is wrong because it’s writer was likely influenced by the Babylonian belief in a flat and stationary earth with a hard and solid dome over it.
So again I thank you for your new found honesty – or whatever is prompting you to finally start admitting what you did at the beginning of this thread, ie: that the Bible was written by men lacking in knowledge about our world, who were just telling it the way they thought it was from their own limited perspective.
Danny and Berean, great input! Thanks. 🙏
Proclaimer, are you beginning to understand the stuff that Danny and Berean are explaining to you? Do you have any direct and honest responses to the things they are showing you?
Gene: Mike …..Heres one for you…
Sorry Charlie. You don’t get to keep ignoring questions that I’ve already asked you dozens of times and just ask your own question on a completely unrelated topic.
Answer mine directly and honestly FIRST, and then you will have earned the right to ask yours.
1. Gene, you just acknowledged that clouds are IN “the entire sky”, right? I pointed out to you that if clouds are IN the sky, they can’t very well be the waters ABOVE the sky. I also pointed you to Psalm 148, which lists the waters above and clouds as two DIFFERENT things. And then I asked you to tell me what ARE the waters above the sky since they can’t be clouds. What is your answer?
2. Gene, I’ve asked you MANY times to explain to us why your interpretation of Gen 1 has God creating light after it already existed, creating heaven after it already existed, creating earth after it already existed, and creating the luminaries after they already existed. What is your answer?
You have ignored many other direct questions from me in this thread, but I’ll settle for your direct and honest answers to these two. You answer them, and I’ll happily answer your question about Adam and Eve.
Berean’s point debunks Mike
Berean:
Before creating the heaven and the earth on which we live, God WAS IN HIS HEAVEN, WITH HIS SON AND HIS HOLY ANGELS.AND THEREFORE THE RAQIYA WHICH HE MADE MUCH LATER WHICH IS BETWEEN THE TWO WATERS CANNOT BE THE PLACE OF GOD’S PERSONAL DWELLING.
Exactly. This shows that Mike’s understanding of raqia which is called heaven is not correct. God called the raqia – heaven and there are at least three heavens, some say seven. But Mike places the waters above everything. In reality, if we are talking about the first heaven and the raqia / space / heaven / sky between the two waters, it is not as those pagan models say. So the water above the raqia may just be referencing the first heaven. The context determines which heaven.
Mike just sees one raqia or space in the cosmos. But there is space between the waters below where the birds fly and above. This may be the first heaven. Then there is outer space which is the starry heaven which could be the second heaven. Then there is the place of God, the third heaven perhaps.
This is why God can dwell in heaven. It is the highest heaven, not the lower ones.
God called the raqia – heaven. Funny thing about this was Mike used this scripture to make one of his points to me earlier on, then quickly tried to censor it from his own posts once he realised God dwells IN heaven / raqia.
The raqia or model of the heavens could look something like this if we understand scripture and true knowledge that we have gained.
God beyond creation
Dwelling place of God in creation / paradise / raqia / highest heaven
Stars / outer space / celestial / raqia / heaven
Water / clouds / air / atmosphere / raqia / sky / space / heaven/
Water / land / Terrestial
Water below the land / Subterranean water
Hades
The pagan model lacks much knowledge and biblical knowledge, but that is understandable given their level of science and understanding. Today, we also have real videos and images to confirm the real structure of the cosmos.
So for me, flat earth is not only unscriptural, it is also unscientific. Thus is is not true. And defending it is foolish..
I actually believe that flat earthers, hollow earthers, and other fringe groups and cults can have their world view. What I dislike is when they include God, Jesus, and the bible into such. It is a bad witness and puts people off the gospel. People that Christ died for. Some idiot comes along and puts up a stumbling block to the gospel and thus the hearers their salvation. When they lie and pretend that the bible teaches their crap, when it clearly doesn’t at all, I call them out.
If you preach the gospel or claim to be an ambassador for Christ, and also preach the earth is flat, then you will be held to account for the lie.
Proclaimer: But Mike places the waters above everything. In reality, if we are talking about the first heaven and the raqia / space / heaven / sky between the two waters, it is not as those pagan models say. So the water above the raqia may just be referencing the first heaven. The context determines which heaven.
You and Gene keep overlooking the fact that the sun, moon and stars are IN the raqia that the waters are ABOVE.
That’s why I drew that cartoon for you guys. If the raqia is the space between the sea and the clouds, then the sun, moon, and stars must be IN the space between the sea and the clouds.
Please directly address the Biblical teachings (Gen 1, Psalm 148, etc) that the sun, moon, and stars are IN the thing (raqia/expanse/heaven/sky/firmament) that the waters are ABOVE… which absolutely requires the waters above to be ABOVE the sun, moon, and stars.
Address this DIRECTLY.
1. Are the sun, moon, and stars IN the raqia? Yes or No?
2. Are the waters ABOVE the raqia? Yes or No?
3. Does this require the waters to be ABOVE the sun, moon, and stars? Yes or No?
Mike……..Shouldn’t you be telling us how modern science is lying to us, instead of just going on as if they don’t know what they are talking about, tell us how there is no actual rocket ships, satelites, giant tellescopes webb, Hubble, and hundreds of others out there, isen’t your real argument with them. You believe we really Don’t have The ISS, SPACE STATION, thats going around this earth 24/7 taking video pictures of this earth as it travels around our earth. Anyone with there own eyes can see it for themselves.
You tell us that all, this is a giant “conspirecy”, that our grovernment is lying to us and all the other governments of this world are also, BUT YOU FAIL TO EVER TELL US WHY? , shouldn’t you be telling us all “WHY” they are all doing that? Why would telling us this “lie” about the earth, would even benifit them in “ANYWAY”? Why would Elon Musk , waste billions of dollars on his space missions , if it wern’t true.
Mike face the truth, your one of these guys who swats at gnats, and sollows a camel. Your refusal to even believe any of these proofs offered to you, and it shows us all how your mind works, your “cognisity”, of what is true , and not true, has been greatly compermised.
I realize you are unaware of this and will continue to do it, but i see it as a complete waste of our time, and robbing people of growing in grace and knowledge of the truth. Your doing a great of decieving Mike. One thing i have noticed by your work of deception Mike , is this, it does bring out the people who are just as gulible as you are here, that fore sure.
Peace and love to you and your………gene
You and Gene keep overlooking the fact that the sun, moon and stars are IN the raqia that the waters are ABOVE.
Raqia is called heaven and there are three heavens. This solves your conundrum.
If only one heaven in the raqia as you imply, then you need to equally teach that God who dwells IN Heaven is BELOW the waters.
Good luck with your flawed viewpoint because God called the raqia heaven / heavens.
But you could be right and scripture wrong.
But I think your chances are extremely close to zero.
Proclaimer,
God was not homeless prior to the creation of the raqia on Day 2.Your not getting it dabbs. Completely not understanding my point. I’ll put this simply for you.
I do not disagree with your statement and have not taught anything to the contrary.
I can see why you believe in flat earth.
Mike face the truth, your one of these guys who swats at gnats, and sollows a camel. Your refusal to even believe any of these proofs offered to you, and it shows us all how your mind works, your “cognisity”, of what is true , and not true, has been greatly compermised.
This is a true message. I do not know to what extent this applies to those here that refuse the truth, but it is a warming for all to heed.
He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
I personally think that when you are right with God, you will love the truth and not reject it. You will test what you believe so you are sure. You will not be proud, obstinate, and delusional. You will not cling to lies. The Spirit of Truth which makes us sons of God will never lead us into delusions. Delusion is a fruit that exposes a bad root.
is this, it does bring out the people who are just as gulible as you are here, that fore sure.
So true. God let’s people stray because they seek not the truth.
Proclaimer: I personally think that when you are right with God, you will love the truth and not reject it. You will test what you believe so you are sure. You will not be proud, obstinate, and delusional. You will not cling to lies. The Spirit of Truth which makes us sons of God will never lead us into delusions. Delusion is a fruit that exposes a bad root.
God let’s people stray because they seek not the truth.
Your entire statement describes YOU, Pretender! Can you really not see that? At first I thought you must be trolling us by intentionally and blatantly describing things that YOU do and pretending to attribute them to others.
Are you really willing to TEST what you believe?
Are you really willing to cast out your obstinate and delusional PRIDE?
Are you really willing to stop clinging to lies and truly seek the truth?
Dude, I turn 58 next week. For 53 of those years, I sincerely believed everything that you and Gene still believe. The difference in the last 5 years is that did what you said above. I got right with God. I stopped being an obstinate, delusional and proud person who clung to lies. In short, I started SEEKING TRUTH.
Now if that is truly what you are after, as you claim, then do what your statement above says. Throw out your pride for a moment. Stop being obstinate, and simply have a respectable adult discussion with us as a way of SEEKING TRUTH.
That requires you to respectfully share your understanding while also openly discussing ours – instead of cowering and hiding from our questions and points, shouting insults at us as you run away as fast as you can.
You think you can do that? Let’s find out…
Proclaimer: Raqia is called heaven and there are three heavens.
It’s clear to us that you are PRETENDING to believe that heaven and raqia mean the exact same thing. Of course you already know that’s not true, but to admit that there is only ONE raqia, while there are THREE heavens would mean you would have to directly address what the waters above the raqia are, right?
So yeah, we can all see what you’re TRYING to do in a very deceptive attempt to not have to directly answer that question.
Okay Pretender, let’s go with your claim that you already know is wrong…
1. If the raqia is all three heavens, and there are waters above the raqia itself, are you man enough to admit that clouds can’t possibly be the waters that are above the raqia (all three heavens)? Yes or No?
*This is a direct, valid and respectful question that deserves the same kind of answer from a person who is truly seeking the truth.
Proclaimer: If only one heaven in the raqia as you imply, then you need to equally teach that God who dwells IN Heaven is BELOW the waters.
We don’t imply “one heaven IN the raqia”. But okay…
2. I concede for argument’s sake that the raqia is all three heavens, and the waters above are therefore above God’s dwelling place. So what? Are you saying that God, who created all the creatures of the deep sea cannot Himself dwell in or below water?
So assuming that God truly is below the waters that are above the raqia… what ARE those waters above the raqia in your worldview? In mine, nothing would change except for moving God’s throne in this image down to within the waters above the firmament, in the firmament itself, or even below the firmament…
Understand? The Biblical description of our world remains the same, it’s just that God’s dwelling place has moved down a bit.
No problem for us. But what about for YOU? You STILL need to come up with an explanation for the waters above “all three heavens” in your NASA-inspired worldview. So? What are these waters?
*This is a direct, valid and respectful question that deserves the same kind of answer from a person who is truly seeking the truth.
3. Danny and Berean have both been presenting a very good point that you just keep either completely ignoring, or responding to with nonsense like this…
Danny: Proclaimer,
God was not homeless prior to the creation of the raqia on Day 2.Proclaimer: Your not getting it dabbs. Completely not understanding my point. I’ll put this simply for you.
I do not disagree with your statement and have not taught anything to the contrary.
I can see why you believe in flat earth.
How in the world do those words even come close to addressing Danny’s and Berean’s point? As usual, someone’s going to have to spell it out for you and ask a direct question in order to get anywhere.
Pretender, God created the raqia and named it heaven on Day 2.
A. Where was God dwelling BEFORE that time?
B. Do you think that God created the raqia and then moved INTO it?
C. Or do you think it’s more plausible that God already had a dwelling place before He began creating our physical world, and that the raqia and the waters above it are a part of OUR physical world and have nothing to do with God’s dwelling place, regardless of the fact that God named the raqia heaven, and the Jews later came to identify God’s dwelling place as the third heaven – which is STILL above and outside of our physical realm like it was before He created our physical realm?
*C is a direct, valid and respectful question that deserves the same kind of answer from a person who is truly seeking the truth.
Okay Pretender… let’s see if you practice what you preach, and if you are really a truth seeker who is willing to directly and respectfully answer respectable and valid questions on his search for and in defense of truth.
Proclaimer and Gene keep overlooking the fact that the sun, moon and stars are IN the raqia that the waters are ABOVE.
That’s why I drew that cartoon for them. If the raqia is the space between the sea and the clouds, then the sun, moon, and stars must be IN the space between the sea and the clouds.
Gene and Proclaimer:
Please directly address the Biblical teachings (Gen 1, Psalm 148, etc) that the sun, moon, and stars are IN the thing (raqia/expanse/heaven/sky/firmament) that the waters are ABOVE… which absolutely requires the waters above to be ABOVE the sun, moon, and stars.
If you guys are truly truth seekers, and there’s no reason to HIDE from the truth, prove it by answering all 3 of these questions DIRECTLY, with a Yes or a No.
1. Are the sun, moon, and stars IN the raqia? Yes or No?
2. Are the waters ABOVE the raqia? Yes or No?
3. Does this require the waters to be ABOVE the sun, moon, and stars? Yes or No?
Gene: i see it as a complete waste of our time, and robbing people of growing in grace and knowledge of the truth.
Gene, how in the world could I possibly waste YOUR time by posting things that you aren’t even required to read? 🤔🙄
And let’s face it, Gene, you AREN’T actually interested in truth at all. If you were, you’d just directly answer the questions I’ve been asking, right?
You can begin to show us that you really ARE interested in “growing in grace and knowledge of the truth” by answering the 3 Yes or No questions in the post above this one.
Will you do it? I say no, because you AREN’T interested in truth. Prove me wrong, Gene. (Or prove me RIGHT by ignoring those 3 questions.)
@t8
God created the raqia on Day 2.
1. Where was God living before then?
2. Did God move into the raqia after He created it?
3. Or does God still dwell where He always did… outside of our physical realm?
Honest and respectful questions deserve honest and respectful answers from people who are sincerely seeking nothing but the truth.
Are you one of those people, Pretender? Prove it by answering all three questions directly and honestly. Or prove the exact opposite by ignoring them.
@t8
You implied in 3 recent posts that the writers of the Bible were lacking in knowledge about how our world really is.
Is that truly what you believe? Yes or No?
*Honest and respectful questions deserve honest and respectful answers from people who are sincerely seeking nothing but the truth.
Hi Mike,
You know that Proclaimer bombarded us with Genesis 1:8
Raqia is called heaven – God dwells in heaven.Well, then I quoted* this to him:
In Gen. 1:8 God calls the firmament “heaven” (Hebrew shamayim). That turns out to give little additional definition to what the firmament (raqia) is, since in all the cases in Genesis 1 where God puts a name to something, there is never a one-to-one correspondence to the original word for the object and the subsequent name. For instance, God calls the primordial light “Day” (Gen 1:5). This does not mean that “light” and “day” are synonymous. Any thorough Hebrew lexicon lists a number of meanings for the Hebrew word for “light” and a different list of senses in which yom, the Hebrew word for “day”, is used.“Heaven” is used in many senses of the visible sky and of the abode of God. Thus, we need to let context and usage inform our understanding of what shamayim and raqia mean in their specific occurrences. Sometimes “heaven” refers to some aspect of the physical sky and sometimes it does not. God was not homeless prior to the separation of the waters on Day 2. The fact that Gen 1:14-17 uses the compound phrase “the firmament of the heaven” further indicates that “firmament” (raqia) is not one-for-one synonymous with “heaven” (shamayim). The Israelites would understand this phrase to mean “the spread-out dome of the sky”. (End of quote)
No response from Proclaimer.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
