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No, it’s not a contradiction, because the expression “in the day” simply means “at the time”.
Exactly. Thank you!
So a day in scripture is not always 24 hours.
You said it yourself.
Of course, a day is mostly 24 hours or 12 or so hours because it is used in our (everyday) context.
But for God, the context is different.
He is not a man that is dictated to by earth revolutions.
All things in HIS time. He has a season for all things.
A day to God is like a thousand years.
It may not be what your religion or denomination teaches you, but the Bible teaches us this.
Proclaimer
A day to God is like a thousand years.
It may not be what your religion or denomination teaches you, but the Bible teaches us this.
Me
1-“Like”( or “as” ) IS not “equal”.
I am wrong…?
2- You are out of context with 2 Peter 3:8Berean, I am not saying it is a thousand years. Certainly it is not 24 hours is what you can draw from this. why do so many here consistently err in their assessments? I believe it is because many religious persons are brainwashed. They are no longer able to reason because of indoctrination.
Let us reason together.
Proclaimer,
Berean, I am not saying it is a thousand years.
Me
You are not saying that , BUT You Take 2 Peter 3 FOR WHAT ?
Berean……Peter said, “but beloved, be you not ignorant of this one thing: that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
He was telling us, that a day equals a thousand years to God , and THOUSAND YEARS equals a day. 1000 YEARS = 1 DAY, AND 1 DAY = 1000 YEARS, They are equal to each other with the LORD.
Thats what Proclaimer was saying.
GOD the Father has alloted 7 thousand years, (or in his timinf 7 days) for his work in humanity, six thousand years, (or 6 days) are about over, then we will enter into the final thousand year period,(or day) , when Jesus returns, and the resurection of the Saint’s takes place, and they will rule this earth for a thousand years, then takes place, the return of God the Father, himself to this earth, and the final judgement starts and. after that, He starts a new creation , makes all thing new, again , another start point begins.
Remember wher scripture says, Rom 9:28……”for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness : because a short work will the LORD make upon the earth”.
Seven days, which equals seven thousand years in our time, in God’s timing is “a short time.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
Gene Berean……Peter said, “but beloved, be you not ignorant of this one thing: that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
He was telling us, that a day equals a thousand years to God , and THOUSAND YEARS equals a day. 1000 DAYS = 1 DAY, AND 1 DAY = 1000 YEARS, They are equal to eachother with the LORD.
Thats what Proclaimer was saying.
Me
1- “AS ” do not mean Equal
2- Proclaimer wrote me:
Berean, I am not saying it is a thousand years. Certainly it is not 24 hours is what you can draw from this.
(I think he forgot a “dot” after the “not”)
Hey Berean, that long article you posted argued the same points that I’ve been trying to make based solely on the Bible and God-given common sense. Great read, thanks. The only fault I have with it is the “spinning ball” reference…
“Light was in existence, coming from one direction upon a rotating earth, resulting in the day and night cycle.”
While your source brilliantly highlighted the argument from scripture, this statement ignores two things:
1. The earth didn’t even exist until two days after the “Let there be light” event.
2. The Bible indicates that God performed an ACTION to separate light from darkness once He created that light.
Shining a brand new light upon an already existing and spinning ball would require no action to separate light from darkness – which makes us wonder why God would have included these words: “And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.”
On the other hand, I had not yet considered the word “days” in Gen 1:14…
In Genesis 1:14 we read that God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.” If the word “day” here is not a literal day, then the word “years” being used in the same verse would be meaningless.
While the point your source makes is excellent, consider also that God’s own explanation that the new greater light He had just created (the sun) would signify DAYS proves that all of the “days” in Gen 1 are literal.
Think it out… Let the sun be a sign for DAYS… there was evening and morning, the fourth DAY.
So not only does the idiomatic use of “day” never include a number (ie: Back in the FOURTH day of Abraham Lincoln), or the words evening/morning (ie: Back in the MORNING of Abraham Lincoln’s day), the dark/light cycles that God created to define the first day will now continue forward with the sun being the marker for them.
And since the sun is a marker of LITERAL days, but never a marker of idiomatic days, it is just one more Biblical proof that the days of creation were indeed literal days.
Cheers.
Okay Proclaimer… here’s just a portion of what we’ve learned about your interpretation of Gen 1:
1. The creation of heaven automatically includes the creation of the things IN heaven, but the creation of earth DOESN’T include the creation of the things ON earth. You can’t explain this discrepancy.
2. The words, “Let there be light – and there was light” refer to light that already existed, but a cloud that is never mention in scripture blocked it from reaching earth. Nonsense.
3. The words, “Let there be lights – and God MADE the lights” likewise refer to lights that already existed. Nonsense.
4. Heaven was created twice: Once in Gen 1:1, and then again in Gen 1:6-8. Nonsense.
5. Earth was created twice: Once in Gen 1:1, and then again in Gen 1:9-10. Nonsense.
6. Fruit trees existed for millions of years before direct sunlight ever hit the earth. Nonsense.
7. You acknowledge that the word “earth” in the Bible refers ONLY to the dry ground portion of our world, but then say that the “great deep/waters” that the Spirit of God hovered over WERE the earth. Nonsense.
8. You say the word “day” in Gen 1 is the idiomatic usage (general unspecified period of time), when the idiomatic usage is NEVER modified by a number (second day, fourth day, etc) or the words evening/morning.
9. You say the the plural word “days” (ie: for in six days Yahweh created heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them) is idiomatic for “six long epochs of time” when it is a FACT that the plural word “days” is NEVER used idiomatically.
To give an example of point #8 and point #9 together: Back in the morning of the fourth day of my grandmother’s twelve days…
You know that nobody would EVER speak that way to idiomatically refer to the general period of time that their grandmother dwelt on the earth, right? Yet you assume that God DID speak in this idiotic fashion to refer idiomatically to the six days of creation. Nonsense.
10. You make God out to be either an idiot or liar when He told His chosen people, “You are to work six days and rest on the seventh BECAUSE I created for six days and rested on the seventh”…because your interpretation forces God to really be saying, “You work six LITERAL days because I created for six LONG EPOCHS OF TIME of VARYING lengths” – but explaining those six epochs of varying amounts of time as if they truly WERE six literal days. Why on earth would God lie to or even intentionally confuse His people by using “six days”, knowing that they would understand it as six literal days – when in reality He meant “six long epochs of varying amounts of deep time”?
Your arguments on this topic have all been equally nonsensical. You have made ZERO rational or valid arguments in the entire time we’ve been discussing it.
In my next post, I will lay out a RATIONAL understanding of what the Biblical words of Gen 1 actually say and mean. I challenge you, Carmel, and Gene to REFUTE any part of my rational understanding – using the scriptures themselves (as opposed to unsubstantiated claims about the “atmosphere on Venus”, etc.)
The First Day
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is an introductory statement. It introduces the the event that is about to be described in more detail. A similar introductory statement is used in Gen 2:4. At this point, there exists neither heaven nor earth.
Gen 1:2… Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
In scripture, “earth” refers ONLY to the dry land upon which we live. It is usually explicitly distinguished from the water portion of our world. For example… “For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…”. Notice how “earth” is something other than “sea”. Earth is the dry land portion of our world, while sea is the water portion. It is the same all throughout the entire Bible.
In Gen 1:2, the earth doesn’t even exist yet. It is formless, ie: not having any form; not having been formed yet. It is void, ie: containing no matter; emptiness; naught.
At the time of Gen 1:2, there existed no heaven and no earth. There was only “the deep” – which is clearly water. We’re not told what form or shape this blob of water had – or how big it was – but we know it had a form because God’s Spirit was hovering over the face (surface) of it. There cannot be a “surface” if there isn’t a body. We also know that this blob of water was void of light and completely dark.
Gen 1:3… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
This represents God’s second creative act (the first being the creation of the blob of water called “the deep”). We are not told what this light was, or what its source was. Only that God created “light”.
Gen 1:4… And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
The separation of light from darkness was God’s third known creative act. And it is important to remember that this was indeed an act performed by God. We aren’t told how God separated the newly created light from the darkness – only that He performed a specific action to do so.
Gen 1:5… God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
This is the beginning of the very concept of a “day” – which was one dark/light cycle on the blob of water from which the earth was about to be formed (or the light portion of one of those cycles). This is likely the reason that Hebrew days are marked from evening to morning, since the very first day of them all began in darkness, then contained a light portion due to God’s creation of light, after which the following dark portion began a different day.
The conclusion of the very first day saw no heaven, no earth, and no sea. Only a blob of dark waters called the deep that now experienced a time of darkness and a time of light – invented by God and named “a day” by God.
The Second Day
Gen 1:6…And God said, “Let there be a firmament between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.”
The firmament is clearly a solid object. We know this because of the meaning of its root word “raqa”, because Job describes it as “hard as a mirror of cast bronze” (37:18), and because it supports the waters above it. These waters above the firmament were in existence for thousands of years after the creation of the firmament (Ps 148:4), and there is no reason to assume they do not still exist today.
Gen 1:7-8… So God made the firmament and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. God named the firmament “heaven”. And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
Here it is reiterated that God divided the blob of waters called the deep, and created a hard, solid firmament to keep part of the waters above it, and the rest of them underneath it. And we also learn that this firmament was named “heaven” by God. This is the very beginning of the existence of heaven – and “heaven” is a hard-as-bronze object that supports waters above it.
In later times, “heaven” came to refer to the sky under the firmament (first heaven), the firmament itself (second heaven), and the place above the firmament where God dwells (third heaven). But in the beginning, it was the firmament alone that God, its Creator, named “heaven”.
This occurred on Day 2 – during the second dark/light cycle on the blob of waters from which the earth would eventually be formed. Before the second day, there existed no such thing as “heaven”.
The Third Day
Gen 1:9-10… And God said, “Let the waters under the firmament be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
Here we learn that, after the waters were separated into the portion below the firmament and the portion above it, God gathered the waters below it into one place, and created dry land. God named the dry land portions of our world “earth”, and the water portions “seas”.
This occurred on Day 3 (the third dark/light cycle on what is now our world), and is the very beginning of the existence of earth. Before this time, there existed no such thing as earth, and no such thing as seas.
Both the earth and the seas were formed from the blob of waters that remained under the firmament…
2 Peter 3:5… But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word heaven came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
Gen 1:11-13… Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Here we learn that in the very same single dark/light cycle during which God created both earth and seas, He also created all kinds of vegetation. And we are told that all of these things (earth, seas, vegetation including trees bearing fruit) were created by God on Day 3.
The Fourth Day
Gen 1:14-15… And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years. And let them serve as lights in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.” And it was so.
This is the very beginning of the existence of the sun, the moon, and the stars. Note that these lights (specifically the sun) will serve as markers of days. The creation of the sun didn’t ORIGINATE days (dark/light cycles on earth), but was created as a sign and a marker for these cycles that had already been occurring for three days prior to its creation.
Gen 1:16… God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.
Here it is spelled out for us exactly which lights were MADE on this day… Day 4. On Day 4, God MADE the sun, and MADE the moon, and MADE the stars.
These lights did not exist before God said, “Let there be lights”, and then MADE those very lights.
Gen 1:17-19… God set these lights in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth, to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Here we are specifically told where God placed all of these lights: In the firmament of heaven. These lights are WITHIN the hard-as-bronze barrier between the waters above and the waters below… the barrier that God named “heaven”.
And with the creation of the sun on Day 4, we now know that the duration of the three previous days (dark/light cycles) was also 24 hours each, because the creation of the sun didn’t originate “days”, nor alter the duration of them. Instead, the sun was created to serve as a sign to mark the passing of days.
The length of each day after the creation of the sun remains exactly as it was before the creation of the sun, ie: 24 hours.
Okay Proclaimer, Gene, and Carmel. Please challenge my last four posts about the first four days of creation. Please call out any errors or misunderstandings you think I have. Please prove my understanding wrong if you can. Thanks.
Hi Mike,
You: The First Day
GEN 1:1… IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH.This is an introductory statement.
It introduces the event that is about to be described in more detail.
Mike, read your inconsistency:
conspiracy-theories-myths-or-truth/page/55:
FEBRUARY 13, 2022 AT 1:52 PM #900138
You: Genesis 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth.
God later wrote on a tablet with His own finger that in six days, He created the heaven and earth.
So yes, 1:1 is the first part of what God DID on the very first day (Gen 1:1-5).
conspiracy-theories-myths-or-truth/page/103/
Me: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
ANSWER PLEASE:
WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IN GENESIS 1:1
You: NOBODY!
NOW TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR:
ACCORDING TO YOU, MIKE!
GENESIS 1:1
IS AN INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT!
GENESIS 1:1
IS ALSO GOD’S FIRST ACT OF CREATION!
GENESIS 1:1
GOD DID NOT CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Young Earth Creationism
Mike, it’s all very simple.
You say a day is always 24 hours and Genesis is no exception.
But when you see that there is day and night, then you see that day can mean around 12 hours which is not 24 hours.
Then when you read that a day to God is not like a day to us and that we were not even around, then it becomes obvious that the word day is not strictly 24 hours.
And Once you question that a day is always 24 hours, you then from the get go do not have to force that into Genesis.
So with an open mind and a heart for truth, one seeks the answer.
And you notice huge discrepancies in the 24 hour day doctrine of Genesis.
For example, you say the sun was created on day 3 or 4 or whatever, and obviously mankind was not even around, yet you still insist on 24 hours. Why do you think there are 24 hours in the day, clue, it has to do with the Sun.
Then we see that plants in day 4 actually flowered and produced seed, it becomes obvious that these days are not 24 hours.
And if we believe the text, we see that before the conclusion of day one, God already created the heavens and earth and the sun moon and stars are part of that heaven.
So you guys can say whatever you want about day and 24 hours and delve into Hebrew etc, but it is clear that the word day just means a period of time where something got started and then finished. This is what evening and morning mean.
Finally, and without mentioning a ton of other stuff, we see that there was a day when god created the heavens and earth. So the context is the creation of the heavens and earth, a beginning and end of that process. So it becomes a day too.
Your religious view of Genesis is found wanting.
Back to the drawing board young earth creationists.
The text doesn’t support you view.
And science debunks you too.
so ask yourself, do you really believe scripture, or do you believe your own version of events and then cherry pick verses to support YOUR view.
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
DEBUNK STATUS: Debunked
DEBUNK DIFFICULTY: Medium to hard.
Mike, very few people will subscribe to your world view.
You say that God created a flat earth in 6 x 24 hour periods, despite the Sun which gives us night and day being created for half of those days and an indisputable amount of evidence that we live on a globe.
Most will just ignore you Mike because they will just think you are nuts.
I do not know if you are like this because your heart is wayward and this guides your mind or if you have issues with your mind with your heart being in the right place. But something is awry. Please pray about this.
Genesis 1:5
Light=day
Darkness=Night
evening+morning=1 day
Do not confuse the word day which is evening + morning with the word day which expresses “light”
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.Carmel: ACCORDING TO YOU, MIKE!
GENESIS 1:1
IS AN INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT!GENESIS 1:1
IS ALSO GOD’S FIRST ACT OF CREATION!GENESIS 1:1
GOD DID NOT CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!You can also search and find posts where I argued that heaven was created after earth, because I used to understand Gen 1:2 as referring to an already formed earth. And if you search thread topics from 8 years ago, you’ll find a thread I started in which I argued that “cavemen” existed for hundreds of thousands of years, and that Adam was the “first man” only in the sense that he was the first humanoid that God made in His own image and named “adam/man”. You can also find posts where I argued that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being before Miia showed me the scriptural error of that understanding.
So yes, Carmel, I had a completely different understanding of Gen 1 when I began this whole “Bible Vs Scientism” topic. That’s what these forums are for… to refine our understanding by delving ever deeper into the scriptures.
I now realize that Gen 1:2 doesn’t actually teach that earth was already in existence. In fact, it says the opposite by explaining that the earth had NOT yet been formed, and all there was at that point was a very dark blob of waters called “the deep”.
See, I didn’t realize at first that “earth” refers ONLY to dry land in the Bible – and never to the entire land and sea world we inhabit. I discovered that fact during the course of this discussion. And now that I know it, I likewise know that Gen 1:2 couldn’t possibly be referring to an already existing “earth”, because it’s clearly not referring to “dry land”. Earth didn’t come into existence until 2 days after Gen 1:2.
So through this discussion, I’ve come to understand that “the deep” was the first thing God created concerning our world. Then He created light. Then heaven. Then earth. Then vegetation to cover the earth. And then the sun, moon, and stars.
Carmel, have you found any scriptural faults in my posts about the first four days of creation? If so, lay them on me. Thanks.
Proclaimer: Mike, it’s all very simple.
You say a day is always 24 hours and Genesis is no exception.
I’ve never said that.
Proclaimer: But when you see that there is day and night, then you see that day can mean around 12 hours which is not 24 hours.
Yes. In fact, from the moment God created the concept and reality of a “day”, He specifically taught us that the word can refer to either the light portion of a dark/light cycle, or one entire dark/light cycle. Both uses are right there in Gen 1:5.
Proclaimer: Then when you read that a day to God is not like a day to us and that we were not even around, then it becomes obvious that the word day is not strictly 24 hours.
Actually, we read that God doesn’t necessarily experience one of our days (literal 24-hour period) like we experience that same day (literal 24-hour period). There is nothing in the teaching that alters the length of “day”, Proclaimer. It’s just that God can experience those 24 hours as going by longer or shorter than we experience the same 24 hours going by.
Proclaimer: And Once you question that a day is always 24 hours, you then from the get go do not have to force that into Genesis.
But you err. “Day”, when modified by a number or the words evening/morning, is ALWAYS a literal 24-hour day (or the 12-hour daylight portion thereof). There are no exceptions, and you know that. That’s why you’ll occasionally speak of “back in the day of my grandma”, but will never speak of “back in the morning of the third day of my grandma” …unless you are talking about the literal morning of the literal day when your grandma turned 3 days old.
So knowing these things as you clearly do, isn’t it more a matter of YOU trying to force a literal meaning OUT of Gen 1 than me trying to force one into it?
Proclaimer: So with an open mind and a heart for truth, one seeks the answer.
Let’s see if you are willing to do that right now for all to see…
Proclaimer, if I spoke of “back in the morning of the third day of my grandmother” – would I be talking about a specific literal day? Or a very long unspecified period of time?
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