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Jodi….Another perfect explanation of truth about Jesus, our lord, it never ceases to amaze me how clearly you explain scripture, i wish i had your ability to put things scripturally together like that.
My hope is that LU, will, ask God to help her to question the things that these ANTICHRIST’S are preaching, but it is not easy when you have bought into all those false teaching that infected the Church right at the very beginning, and grow to produce a false Jesus, in the minds of those who do not love t h e truth. But remember is that not what Jesus himself said, the deception would be about him and come from the fallen or apostate churches. The JESUS FALLEN CHRISTANITY TEACHES IS NOT THE JESUS WE KNOW.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi LU,
Please do not offer us creeds developed long after the apostasy.
This is not the work of the Spirit of Christ.
Jodi,
I can tell you put a lot of time in your posts. I handle little bits at a time, please be patient with me. If I don’t address something in particular that you have asked, please draw my attention to it.
For this post, I, once again will address Hebrews 11:17. I am completely aware that Isaac is the second son born to Abraham and the first son born to Sarah. Here is the translation that seems to clarify the Greek the best from what I can tell.
By faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises,
I’m gonna try using a different approach to try to help you understand this passage.
How many begotten children of Abraham did the LORD say that He was going to establish the covenant promises through?
Only one of them or both of them?
If only one begotten son is your answer…which one? Ishmael or Isaac? If Isaac is your answer, then Isaac is the only begotten son that the LORD said He was going to establish the covenant promises through. Isaac was the only begotten son that Abraham offered up who did receive the promises. Ishmael did not receive the promises.
You can verify that Isaac was “the only begotten son” to receive the promises, not Ishmael, in verse 18:
Heb 11:18And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” 19But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
LU… Please understand we are in trying to pull you out of the fire, into the true light of truh, and it all starts by truly known who the real JESUS IS. Nick is right about the creed thing, and accept, if you can that the church was being corrupted at the time of the apostles. They were trying to keep those false teachers from influencing the church at the very beginning, and most of false teachers were preaching a different Jesus and early on decieving about who Jesus really was, They brought in all kinds of false teachings, particularly the Gnostic’s they were the ones presenting Jesus as a God, they have a very negative influence on the church. They saw Jesus as a God and because they saw him that way, they preached against Jesus having to be baptized and anointed by the spirit of God, why becaused they believed Jesus was already a GOD, WHO CAME FROM THE PLORA OF THE GOD’S. And preaching Jesus was only desguised as a man, but was truly a God, so john coined them as “ANTICHRISTS” NOTICE JOHN DOSENT SAY, ANTI-JESUS , WHY?, BECAUSED THEY DID BELIEVE IN JESUS, BUT IT WAS A DIFFERENT JESUS THEY PREACHED ONE WHO HAD NO NEED TO BE BAPTIZED, BEING A GOD ALREADY, They changed the whole image of who Jesus actually was. The apostles perty well kept the true church on the truth, untill they were taken away by death, then these false teachers begain to take control of the church pushing there false teachings of Jesus, untill their teaching were forced on all christanity by the council of Neaca 325 AD UNDER the pagan Emperor Constantine from that point on, the true Jesus was taught only by a few, who were persecuted by the fallen churches, who taught a different Jesus, and because they did not love t h e truth God sent unto them a deluding Spirit inorder for them to believe a “lie” and that “lie” was about the “man” Jesus.
He that has eyes to see let him see.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Lightenup you gave,
“John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The next chapter we see two called Jehovah:
Gen 19:24 Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven;
There is more too.”
When it says that Jehovah rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah or Jehovah did this or that, He did most certainly do those things but they were accomplished through His MESSENGERS, that is what a messenger is, they carry the word and will of Jehovah.
Lightenup, if you use the NICENO-CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED (AD 381) with me I will PAY NO ATTENTION, those of this creed were PAGAN CONVERTS who exiled or even MURDERED those speaking against their doctrine, they also translated texts and burned the originals they had. Their creed is worthless, they were by NO MEANS men of God speaking truth. Stick to scripture!!
Lightenup,
As I said before stick to scripture and not the works of murders who killed those who confessed the truth and argued against this creed.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might BE the firstborn among many brethren.
Colossons 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:…18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Passage clearly speaks of a BEGINNING, and it is clearly identified as a new beginning and not the beginning of creation back in Adam and Eve, but the beginning that starts with the redemption!!!!…the beginning of the RESURECTION, of WHOM Jesus the Messiah is the firstborn of.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made
Firstborn once again represents that of Jesus from his resurrection. It is the church, not OF the firstborn from the beginning of time founded by some spirit son, but IS the CHURCH of the BROTHERS in CHRIST, the man who shed blood on the cross.1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
This passage ALSO shows that Christ (anointed MAN with God’s Set Apart Spirit) is recognized as a firstborn from the dead, being given the firstfruits of the Set Apart Spirit.
Those that are Christ’s at his coming are the CHURCH mentioned in Hebrews 12.
There is NOT one scripture that speaks of Jesus being firstborn before Adam and Eve.
Lightenup, I need you to clarify, as I see some major unreasoning going on by you,
You are saying that Jesus is Jehovah
You are saying that Jesus is firstborn of creation coming before Adam and Eve
From what I gather, you believe that when the Father made Jesus before creation, Jesus and the Father existed together from that time on as Jehovah. Is this correct?
What kind of being did the Father make Jesus of?
If he is a firstborn that means that there are others OF HIS KIND that are born after him.
Do you consider Adam and Eve to be his kind?
Or maybe it is that you consider that Jesus pre-existed as an immortal human being, and he became a mortal human being to then become an immortal human being again, and those born of the resurrection are of his kind?If that is the case, why didn’t God just skip right to making us all immortal human beings as He made the firstborn you speak of?
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
Was Jesus PERFECT before he became mortal?
Was Jehovah perfect?
Why was Jesus not perfect when he was mortal, but had to become perfected?
As I already asked, if Jesus was perfect before, then why didn’t God just skip mortality and make others of his kind?
Oh but wait Adam and Eve were immortal, but they were not perfect, they sinned, so it is not immortality itself that brings perfection. It is something else that brings perfection. Do you know what that is?All these questions sound nuts, that I have had to ask you because of your reasoning, they sound nuts when we have 1 Corinthians 15 where we are specifically told that FIRST is the NATURAL THEN COMES the SPIRITUAL, that we are told ADAM CAME FIRST and THEN Jesus!! Natural is just not about mortality of a body, it is also about a mind that God gave freedom to, so that we could have our own thoughts and not be robots or puppets, so that we could love and give glory to a Creator and it would not be IN VEIN. Natural is also of the mind a mind that starts out ignorant, but through time collectively, it created a necessary history of both good and evil, a necessary story, a story that the seed of David needed to have in order to know to follow our Father’s Will and to trust in Him, and not our own minds.
But you want to tell me that Jesus was a perfect Jehovah, that is if you believe Jehovah was perfect, or is it that only part of Jehovah was at one point perfect?
Please enlighten me!
And if he is firstborn becoming part of Jehovah does that mean that the church will also be called Jehovah?
So when Jesus was a mortal did Jehovah DIE, and then did Jehovah come back to life when Jesus was raised from the dead?Lightenup,
You said,
“1 Cor 8
…5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom allthings came and through whom we exist. 7But not everyone has this knowledge.Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.Revelation 17:14
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Jehovah is two persons who, together with their united Spirit, act interdependently, not independently as if they were two separate Gods. They act interdependently as One God.”
Lightenup,
I see a problem with your logic and the scriptures you use, as they PROVE the opposite,
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
Here we see that there is but ONE GOD (theos, meaning a god), and He is SOLELY IDENTIFIED AS THE FATHER, and then the passage says that there is but one lord (kurios, meaning master) and this master is identified as Jesus THE CHRIST (meaning the MAN anointed with the Set Apart Spirit of the FATHER).
We are told that JESUS was MADE into a lord and was MADE into the Christ, and it was done by God, and there is ONE God the FATHER.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
The Jesus here is specifically identified not as a pre-existing son, but as the MAN that was crucified.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Lightenup you said, “They act interdependently as One God.”
So if there is one God and Jesus is part of that one God, but yet the resurrected Jesus is subject also to a God, how then do you have only one god? Wouldn’t that make two gods? One that is as you say God and Jesus, and one that is the God of Jesus?
Scripture says that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Jesus says that he has a God, and likewise others like Paul say that Jesus has a God, and this is speaking AFTER his resurrection!
Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.Lightenup this is the truth directly from the scriptures.
We have ONLY ONE GOD of whom is identified as the Father, and this Father is also called a lord, and this Father MADE Jesus into a lord of lords. The Father is thus LORD of the lords that He created, and he set a lord above all the other lords.
Lightenup this is what the scriptures say and it really isn’t that complicated. If I am a Creator, I am master OVER all that I have MADE, and I can create masters, and I can create one that will be the master over all other masters that I have appointed. So scripture can say that Jehovah is lord of lords, and scripture can say that Jesus is lord of lords, but that does NOT make Jesus Jehovah, especially not when we are told precisely that for us there is ONE GOD the FATHER.
One thing you MUST remember is the DEFINITION of CHRIST, and that is an ANOINTED HUMAN BEING, not a pre-existing son.
1 Corinthians 8: 5 yet for us there is but ONE God, the Father, FROM whom all things CAME and for whom we exist, and there is but one master, Jesus the MAN anointed with the Set Apart Spirit, THROUGH whom all things CAME and through whom we exist.
This is where you error, you error because you DENY the CHRIST and you read scripture antichrist.
The above passage tells us that the ONE TRUE GOD the Father created the world, and He created that world through the promise of the CHRIST, and it is BY CHRIST that we can exist, it is by CHRIST that we have the REDEMPTION that makes us capable of existing. This redemption did not come through a pre-existing son, it CAME THROUGH the MAN who shed his blood for us, the man that scripture says was MADE INTO a master through being perfected, for crying out to God in his suffering and saying NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS!!!
LU….The key is in understanding what a CHRIST “IS”, in the scriptures, it comes from the word Messiah in Hebrews, and it always meant to apply to a “ANOINTED” HUMAN BEING, that anointing only applied to men, like Moses, the seventy elders, Joshua, Calab, Samson, king Saul, king David, and the Saints of the most high. But always referenced a special relationship that God has with that human being anointed by him, that sets him apart, from the rest of humanity, that same things applies to the saints of God, that same spirits sets us apart, making us alzo sons of God, just as it says, “brethern know you not that “NOW” are we the Sons of the LIVING GOD”, “and if Sons then also Heirs, and “joint heirs” with Jesus, the Christ”.
Seperating Jesus from our exact idenity with him, simply moves him away from us all, making him appear to be different then we are, Jesus became what he has because of the Anointing he recieved from God his Father, the same applies with us also. “He is the first born of “maný” brethern”, and again “therefore he is not ashame to call us brothers”. As he is so are we in this world. Can you say that believing way you do. If you Don’t believe it was the anointing spirit of God that made Jesus who he is, the you most certainly are ANTICHRIST, That is to say against the anointing of the flesh man Jesus.
LU are you denying that Jesus came into his “existence” as a flesh human being, who need the anointing spirit of the living God to carry out the task given him. If you say in your heart he did not need to be anointed by God the Father to do what he did, because he was already A GOD, then you are surely ANTICHRIST. SO ALSO IS EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE HE WAS A FLESH AND BLOOD HUMAN BEING, WHO, AS WE, HAD TO BE ANOINTED BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD, to attain to the Glory he now has, and we shall have with him.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Oh my goodness…slow down 🙂 I have so many things to address here, ha. Well it is late and I’m tired but I will touch on this one concept:
Jodi said:
From what I gather, you believe that when the Father made Jesus before creation, Jesus and the Father existed together from that time on as Jehovah. Is this correct?
No this is not correct. I don’t believe that the Father “made” Jesus at all. I believe the Father begat the only begotten Son who always existed before that-within the Father. I believe that the Son was begotten (not made but instead, brought out of the Father) on day one of the creation week. Jesus is the Light of the world after all. Also, firstborns don’t need siblings to be called ‘firstborns’ btw.
I will try to get to more of the comments tomorrow. I spent too much time on the flat earth thread tonight.
One more thing…the word “anointed” or “messiah” does not necessarily mean “anointed man” a cherub could be anointed for example. I believe the only begotten Son, the Lord of lords, Jehovah our Righteousness could be and definitely was anointed by the God of gods, His Father.
Read this: https://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-Messiah-mean.html
Until next time…Philippians 2:10That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, 11And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH* to the glory of God his Father. Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hi LU,
God is light.
Jesus brought the light of God to earth.
Now his brothers are told to continue that task.
Believe in the light that you might become sons of light.
Jodi,
You said:
Lightenup, if you use the NICENO-CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED (AD 381) with me I will PAY NO ATTENTION, those of this creed were PAGAN CONVERTS who exiled or even MURDERED those speaking against their doctrine, they also translated texts and burned the originals they had. Their creed is worthless, they were by NO MEANS men of God speaking truth. Stick to scripture!!
I know many in my lifetime that believe in what this creed says and I don’t know of any that murdered anyone for disagreeing with it. It still stands after many years. No doubt that people would be offended by it. The truth offends many when it challenges their own ideas.
Jodi,
you said:
When it says that Jehovah rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah or Jehovah did this or that, He did most certainly do those things but they were accomplished through His MESSENGERS, that is what a messenger is, they carry the word and will of Jehovah.
Did you write that or did God write it through you, Jodi? Do you cook dinner for your family or does God cook dinner through you? Do you drive a car or does God drive the car through you? Do you see how far that logic can take you?
How differently do you think the writer of Genesis 19 would say this if indeed there are two persons as Jehovah?
24Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; 25and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
I think he would write it just like that. You twist it, in my opinion. We are looking at the same scripture with completely different lenses, Jodi.
If there are two persons as Jehovah, you would appreciate how one of them came
down to become like man, as a man, to die for you? I’m sorry that you can’t see the magnitude of that.
Jodi,
you said:
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might BE the firstborn among many brethren.
Colossons 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:…18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Passage clearly speaks of a BEGINNING, and it is clearly identified as a new beginning and not the beginning of creation back in Adam and Eve, but the beginning that starts with the redemption!!!!…the beginning of the RESURECTION, of WHOM Jesus the Messiah is the firstborn of.
He is both the Firstborn of creation BEFORE creation AND the Firstborn from the dead. He came out of the Father before creation, he came out of the grave after the death on the cross and burial in the tomb. The difference is that as the Firstborn of all creation, he had no siblings. As the Firstborn from the dead, all believers in Jesus as LORD will also receive life eternal after being dead. Jesus calls them brothers. In both cases, He existed BEFORE He was brought forth.
Jodi,
you asked ( the numbers are from me):
1.Why was Jesus not perfect when he was mortal, but had to become perfected?
2.As I already asked, if Jesus was perfect before, then why didn’t God just skip mortality and make others of his kind?
3.Oh but wait Adam and Eve were immortal, but they were not perfect, they sinned, so it is not immortality itself that brings perfection. It is something else that brings perfection. Do you know what that is?- Jesus was perfect when he walked as a man. When the Bible says “having been made perfect…” it is in the sense of completing his mission.
- Others cannot be made of his kind since his kind is not made but always existent.
- No one can become perfect. One has to have always been perfect if they are actually perfect.
Jodi,
you asked:
And if he is firstborn becoming part of Jehovah does that mean that the church will also be called Jehovah?
So when Jesus was a mortal did Jehovah DIE, and then did Jehovah come back to life when Jesus was raised from the dead?He is not the “firstborn becoming part of Jehovah.” You can’t BECOME Jehovah. The very meaning of the name requires an eternal existence. The church will not be called Jehovah. The church did not always exist.
Jesus’ flesh died, not his spirit. His spirit was committed into the Father’s hands. His flesh was what the Son tabernacled in while on earth. He now has glorified flesh.
Jodi,
you asked:
Here we see that there is but ONE GOD (theos, meaning a god), and He is SOLELY IDENTIFIED AS THE FATHER, and then the passage says that there is but one lord (kurios, meaning master) and this master is identified as Jesus THE CHRIST (meaning the MAN anointed with the Set Apart Spirit of the FATHER).
Jehovah is both God and Lord. The Lord became a man in order to save man. The emphasis is to be on the fact that the God and Lord of us is the Father and Jesus Christ from whom all things have come.
1 Cor 8:6To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand. Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Jodi,
you mentioned:
We are told that JESUS was MADE into a lord and was MADE into the Christ, and it was done by God, and there is ONE God the FATHER.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Yes, Jesus is made Lord and Christ by the Father, not by satan. The Father made the Son Lord of all when the ‘all’ began to exist.
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
It is kinda impossible to be Lord of all when nothing else exists to be Lord over.
Jodi,
you said:
The Jesus here is specifically identified not as a pre-existing son, but as the MAN that was crucified.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This passage does not say anything about the Son not pre-existing. I read this as the Lord of lords (Jesus, Jehovah our Righteousness) defeats all the enemies, including death. After that, the Father is God with no remaining person acting as if they were god or being worshiped as a god. Jesus will remain the Lord of lords. Jesus has always been subject to the Father. Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
It seems that for you, Jehovah is the God of gods apart from the Lord of lords.
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