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Yes when Jesus says “verily,verily I say unto you before Abraham was I am” it’s very clear it’s Jesus not the Father saying it. “I say unto you”, if he were speaking as a prophet he would say God says unto you or thus saith the Lord.
Hi Gene,
Good questions. You asked me to address this:
Lu….If God were to speak through you, would that make you a God? God said this, “God is “not” a man, that he should lie, nor a “son of man” that he should repent. Jesus on the other hand said he was a “son of man” over 50 times.
No, God speaking through us would not make me or anyone a God. Only being Jehovah would make someone the true God. God did indeed say that He is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should repent. Jesus, as the son of man did/does not lie or need to repent. Can you show me otherwise? I believe the emphasis is on God’s character…one that does not tell lies and have a need to repent. He reassures us that He will not lie to us or do something wrong…ever. Jesus never lied to us and He never did something wrong.
You asked:
“UNTO US THERE IS BUT “ONE” GOD, ONE MEDERATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN “THE MAN ” JESUS THE MESSIAH.” And again, said by Jesus “that they might know you the “Only” true God, “and” Jesus whom you have sent.”
What does the word “only” and “true” mean to you LU? As i recall the word “only” means there is no other and “true” means real, and again, “the LORD (adonia) “God almighty” , said to my lord (adoni) a “human” ruler like a judges, governors, human kings, like Jesus is, “sit on my side , until “I” (GOD”, make your enemies your foot stool”.
The only true God is the Father who is God together with the Son and Spirit. The Son whom all things were created through became flesh also which made Him the best mediator…He understood both the God position as well as the human position through first hand experience. There is only one and true God and it is not the Father independently of the Son and Spirit. Take the Father or the Son or the Spirit out of that “equation” and you do not have the one true God.
Also, please note that King David called his future son, his Lord, a title not limited to humans, btw. Kings do not normally refer to their sons as their lord. Ask yourself why David called his son, Lord.
Thanks for asking.
LU
Hi LU,
Theologians make speculative statements about God but we should just let Him define Himself.
Just because some prophets spoke in certain ways does not mean that Jesus must also.
John 3.34
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
Do you believe the words and actions of Jesus Christ were because of his anointing by the Holy Spirit?
acts 10.38
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power and how he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Hi Mike,
you said:
Yes, that’s right… except that not all of them fell. Many of them like Michael and Gabriel remain faithful to their Creator.
I do not recall Michael or Gabriel being referred to as a god. What scripture specifically tell us that?
you said:
Born, begotten, made, brought into existence, created, etc. They all require the existence of someone who at one time didn’t exist.
Born or begotten does not prove that at sometime the one born or begotten did not exist…that is typically the case but not an absolute truth. The Son could have always been inside the Father until He was begotten from the Father. I believe in the eternal Father, not the potential father who became a father. He had to exist before He was begotten in order to have been begotten, btw.
you said:
the Father cannot ever be said to have been “born” or “begotten” or “made”, because He alone has always existed.
If the Father indeed always existed, in truth, there would have to have been an offspring in existence always as well. Otherwise the person you refer to as the Father would not have been a “father” at some point.
you said:
But all other gods – whether you use “born”, “begotten”, “made”, or “created” – were at one time or another, in one way or another, “brought into existence”
Nothing was brought into existence by birth. Birth does not cause something to exist. In fact, something/someone must exist before birth in order to be born. It was through the Son that all things that were brought into existence from a state of non-existence came to exist.
you said:
This includes the firstborn of God’s creative acts, Jesus. He was “the firstborn of every creature” God created, and is “the beginning of the creation by God”. His “origins are from ancient times”, and he was “brought forth as the first of God’s works” – before the mountains were “born”.
A begetting is definitely a work that is why it is called “labor” but it is not a creative work. I have already addressed that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation” which is different than “the firstborn of every creature.” You said that you agree that Jesus is not the first calf…to be the firstborn of every creature would mean that something was not just the first calf but also the first puppy and the first chick and the first lamb and the first human baby, etc. The firstborn of every Israelite, for example would be many different people, not just one.
Thank you for your questions Mike. I’ve read your verses pertaining to your flat earth ideas and I do not see anything about a flat earth. Take care. LU
Nick: “Surely you do not imply that any of the created things that scripture calls SO CALLED gods compare with the Father?”
There exists no scripture that contains the phrase “so called gods”. But no, the gods created by the Most High God cannot compare to He who created them.
Mike I much agree with you about the bible acknowledging the existence of other gods especially in the OT; in the NT these are all referred to as demons.
The story of the exodus is about Yahweh defeating the gods of Egypt and Pharaoh’s magicians perform miracles like Moses and Aaron even.
Exodus12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments
Kathi: I do not recall Michael or Gabriel being referred to as a god. What scripture specifically tell us that?
I assume they are included in Psalm 8:5, Psalm 82:1, etc. Why, do you think only certain spirit sons of God are gods, while others are not? Surely you don’t think that Satan, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, and Milcom – who are all called gods by Jehovah (each of the last three He calls “elohim”) – are really gods, but faithful servants like Michael and Gabriel are not. If so, why? And what about the god who came to Manoah and his wife? Could have been Michael or Gabriel for all we know, but if not, why would that spirit son of God be a god according to Manoah, while Michael and Gabriel aren’t? When David says Jehovah has created mankind “a little lower than the gods”, I assume he is speaking of all God’s spirit sons… not just some of them. At any rate, my point was that not all created gods rebelled against god. I was merely clarifying your statement.
Kathi: Born or begotten does not prove that at sometime the one born or begotten did not exist…that is typically the case but not an absolute truth. The Son could have always been inside the Father until He was begotten from the Father.
Seems you are bending the rules of father/son relationships to force the conclusion you want. But you only bend that rule in the case of Jesus. For every other being in existence, you accept the “typical” case… just not for Jesus.
Kathi: If the Father indeed always existed, in truth, there would have to have been an offspring in existence always as well.
That’s just semantics. It’s like telling me I can’t logically say my father was born in 1942 – since he wasn’t yet a father then. But if it makes you feel better, all of the scriptures translated as saying Jehovah is from eternity (there is no scripture that actually says that) use “God”, not “the Father”. So I’ll adjust my statement to say “Jehovah God cannot ever be said to have been “born” or “begotten” or “made”, because He alone has always existed”.
Kathi: Nothing was brought into existence by birth. Birth does not cause something to exist. In fact, something/someone must exist before birth in order to be born.
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
Did the mountains also exist before they were born? Or do words like “born”, “begotten”, “made”, and “created” all refer to things that didn’t exist at one time, but then were brought into existence? Because all those words are used of Jesus, whose “origin is from days of old, ancient times”. Also notice how the mountains were “born”, while the world was “brought forth”. They are just different ways of saying things that didn’t exist were brought into existence.
Kathi: I have already addressed that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation” which is different than “the firstborn of every creature.”
You addressed it by saying you don’t like that translation. 🙂 But the fact of the matter is that “ktisis pas” (if I remember the Greek words used there) can be translated “all creation” or “every creature” – which both mean basically the same thing anyway.
Kathi: I’ve read your verses pertaining to your flat earth ideas and I do not see anything about a flat earth.
Well, did Joshua command the sun and moon to stand still… or the earth to stop rotating and orbiting around the sun, and the moon to stop rotating and orbiting around the earth?
Let me say it like I did to Nick… Ask yourself one question: How DO I personally know that the earth is a spinning ball flying through endless space at millions of miles an hour in every conceivable direction at once?
And if the only honest answer you can come up with is, “Because men have told me so”, you owe it to yourself to keep an eye on that thread as I unveil some observational scientific evidence that can’t be refuted.
Hi Mike,
The devil, man’s stomach, stones and lumps of wood scripturally can all be gods by man’s design but not our God’s.
For us there is one God.
Join the US.
Andrew: Yes when Jesus says “verily,verily I say unto you before Abraham was I am” it’s very clear it’s Jesus not the Father saying it. “I say unto you”, if he were speaking as a prophet he would say God says unto you or thus saith the Lord.
That’s a misleading translation. First of all, we can’t be sure that YHWH even means “I am”. Secondly, if it does mean “I am”, and Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah there, he would have had to say, “before Abraham existed, I have been I AM”. Because if we just swap “Jehovah” for “I AM” in that verse, Jesus’ statement amounts to, “before Abraham existed, Jehovah!” And what would that even mean?
Compare with John 14:9…
Wycliffe: Jesus saith to him, So long time I am with you, and have ye not known me?
Virtually every other English translation: Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip?
Do a translation comparison of 14:9, and take note how virtually every translator renders the Greek “I am” to “I have been“.
Now consider a Russian man who speaks broken English telling you, “I am married for 20 years now.” Of course you would tell someone else, in proper English, that the Russian man has been married for 20 years.
The proper meaning of John 8:58 is, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham existed, I have been.”
It was Jesus’ response to the Jews who said he wasn’t old enough to have known Abraham. Jesus answered them by saying that he was around long before Abraham came into existence.
Hi LU,
When Jesus Christ walked in Israel the Jews cried out that God has visited his people.
They were right because God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.
Andrew: Mike I much agree with you about the bible acknowledging the existence of other gods especially in the OT; in the NT these are all referred to as demons.
The story of the exodus is about Yahweh defeating the gods of Egypt and Pharaoh’s magicians perform miracles like Moses and Aaron even.
Exodus12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments
Yeah, hard to pass judgment on a man made idol, huh? Even harder for that man made idol to turn staffs into living snakes, water into blood, and conjure up frogs out of thin air. But these are the things the gods of Egypt did through Pharaoh’s priests.
Nick: The devil, man’s stomach, stones and lumps of wood scripturally can all be gods by man’s design but not our God’s.
For us there is one God.
Join the US.
The devil, Jesus, Ashtoreth, Molech, Gabriel, Dagon, Michael, Baal, and many others who were sent by God to help humans in the scriptures – and many others who rebelled against their God and cause much strife to humans – are gods by God’s design.
Genesis 3
5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil.”
22 And Jehovah said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
Psalm 82:1
God stands in the assembly of gods; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
Perhaps Jehovah meets with “man’s stomach, stones and lumps of wood” occasionally, and passes judgement on them?
Nick, I am already part of the “us” Paul was talking about – because I understand the meaning of what he was saying. You currently only understand half of it. Let me help: He is saying that although there truly are all kinds of gods and lords, the “us” choose to worship and serve only one of them as our God, and honor His appointed servant as His second in command, our Lord Jesus Christ.
You have the latter part down pat. Now you just need to accept the former part as well. Let me know if you need any more help, because there are literally dozens of scriptures I can show you to get you on track.
Nick: “Surely you do not imply that any of the created things that scripture calls SO CALLED gods compare with the Father?”
There exists no scripture that contains the phrase “so called gods”. But no, the gods created by the Most High God cannot compare to He who created them.
Hi Mike,
I believe Nick is referring to…
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things…” (1 Cor 8:5-6)
____________
God bless
Ed JMike….FIRST COMMANDMENT, … “thou shall have “no” other God besides me, you shall make no “image” of me in heaven above or in earth beneath”. The human man Jesus being preached as a God is a sin it breakes the first commandment. Go read 2 ths 2, that man of sin there is not a real man it is a “LIE”, A FALSE “IMAGE” OF Jesus, who is being worshiped as a GOD, WHICH TURNS THE “IMAGE” OF Jesus INTO A GOD brought on by the fallen churches of christainity. GOD hears no IDOLATERS, that is why there is no real mircles being done in these fallen churches today.
Why should God the Father, confirm their false teachings by doing miracles in those fallen churches. God told us plainly there is “NO” GOD BESIDES HIM. And even Jesus quoted the sharma, “hear O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS “ÒNE” LORD, and again , “that they might know you , the “ONLY” true GOD”.and Jesus whom you have sent”, and again I am going to my God and Your God, my Father and your Father.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Mike,
“That’s a misleading translation. First of all, we can’t be sure that YHWH even means “I am”” Right and I wasn’t making any point to Nick about Jesus saying I AM or being Jehovah but rather that Jesus was the one who of himself said it. I just usually quote the KJV since it’s what I’ve used the most.
Some translations say Before Abraham was I was or even say” I existed”. And yes it is debatable if the I am is in reference to the I AM of Exodus, but it is clearly saying preexisted as the whole of John’s gospel attests to.
Ed: Hi Mike,
I believe Nick is referring to…
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things…” (1 Cor 8:5-6)
Yeah, and I was pointing out that the phrase “so called gods” isn’t in that verse, or any other verse in the Bible. There are indeed those called gods, because they are indeed gods. But for us, we worship and serve only the Most High God OF all the other gods, and honor and serve His holy servant Jesus as our Lord.
Hey Gene, we can’t argue with scripture. The Bible is chock full of all kinds of gods, and the Most High God of the rest of them who created the rest of them before creating us. That’s what the scriptures teach, and therefore what I believe.
Good to talk with you again after all this time. I hope you and yours are doing well and living blessed by the Most High God of the other gods.
Mike….So what did Jesus mean when he said, “that they might know you THE “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD”, how can we read that to allow for other (true) Gods? Please explain.
I understand that people create all kinds of “FALSE” GODS, BUT (NO), “TRUE” GODS, according to that scripture, all the other so-called Gods are (FALSE) GODS.
And again,
Isa 44:6, “Thus says the LORD the King of Isreal, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is (NO) God.And again,
Isa 44:8, “Fear you not, neither be afraid: have not I told you from that time, and have declared it? You are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? Yea, threre is (NO) God: I know not (ANY).Mike and Andrew, please clearly address these verses before going to others, we understand there does exist (FALSE) Gods but (TRUE) Gods, No not (Any) except the one (TRUE) God.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi Mike,
you said:
I assume they are included in Psalm 8:5, Psalm 82:1, etc. Why, do you think only certain spirit sons of God are gods, while others are not? Surely you don’t think that Satan, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, and Milcom – who are all called gods by Jehovah (each of the last three He calls “elohim”) – are really gods, but faithful servants like Michael and Gabriel are not. If so, why? And what about the god who came to Manoah and his wife? Could have been Michael or Gabriel for all we know, but if not, why would that spirit son of God be a god according to Manoah, while Michael and Gabriel aren’t? When David says Jehovah has created mankind “a little lower than the gods”, I assume he is speaking of all God’s spirit sons… not just some of them. At any rate, my point was that not all created gods rebelled against god. I was merely clarifying your statement.
First off, this scripture is clear that there are no gods besides Jehovah:
Isaiah 43:9All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.” 10“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11“I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.…
From what I can tell of the holy angels, they do not accept worship, they serve Jehovah God and Jehovah’s people. They may be referred to as Elohim but that word does not always translate as god/gods. It can be translated as divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God’s (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1).
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm
Therefore, I would not consider the holy angels as gods. The enemies of Jehovah who claim to be gods and receive worship, they were not formed as gods since no god was formed. If some being is called “god” it is not with the understanding that they are God. Like the judges in Moses’ time who were given the position to judge. I don’t see any specific evidence where Gabriel or Michael are called gods. Also, the story of Manoah that you referred to as well as who Jacob wrestled with, I believe that was the Word of the LORD…the LORD our Righteousness, the Son of God through whom Manoah and Jacob were created.
More later.
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