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I believe the scriptures. That shouldn’t make you think this. If scripture contradicts your understanding and I quote scripture, then you have the problem. Simple. But the wise of the world do not like simple because it is harder to lie. They like lots of detail where lies can abide.
Scripture is clear. Those that leave this realm and belong to the Lord and with the Lord.
Amen.
Hi All
therefore from II Corinthians 5:6-8, we read:
II Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”For many people what the phrase “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”, means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that “WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD”. The phrase “we are willing” shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish “to be absent from the body and present with Lord”. Though a full and clear picture of what this phrase means will be possible only after the examination of its context, we can from the outset preclude that it could ever mean that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord for in a case like this, there would be a stark contradiction with I Thessalonians 4:15-17 that says:
I Thessalonians 4:15-17
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND THUS we SHALL always be with the Lord.“If in II Corinthians 5:6-8 God said that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord, then how could in I Thessalonians 4:17 the same God say that “AND THUS (i.e. by the resurrection, and the changing of the bodies) we SHALL always be with the Lord?” Obviously either the Word is wrong, which is impossible, or the interpretation that is usually given to II Corinthians 5:6-8 is wrong. As we will see by studying the context the later is the case. Thus starting from II Corinthians 4:13 – about fifteen verses earlier – we read:
II Corinthians 4:13-14
“We having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, and therefore I spoke; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he who raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.”What Paul knew by revelation was not that after one dies he continues to live together with the other dead. Instead what he knew and taught was that: “he which RAISER up the Lord Jesus shall RAISE up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.” Paul waited and still waits the resurrection, to be presented, to be together, with those Corinthian believers. The last time he saw them was in the last time he visited Corinth, and the next time he will see them will be when both he and they will be RAISED to meet, together with the alive believers, the Lord in the air. Obviously therefore, the context of our passage is not about death but about its exact opposite: the RESURRECTION of the dead. But let’s continue:
II Corinthians 4:18-5:4
“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”When this passage speaks for a “tabernacle” and for a “house” it obviously does not mean a physical lifeless structure. Really, it is not possible “to be clothed upon” with a physical house, nor is it possible by changing it that “mortality might be swallowed up of life”. When therefore in the above passage the words “house” and “tabernacle” are used, they are used with the meaning of an ALIVE structure, an ALIVE house. In other words they are used with the meaning of a body which as we know is the “house” of our being1. This is also affirmed by the controversial verses 6-8 that follow the above passage and which speak for a BODY. As therefore the above passage (and others as well – see below) tells us, there are two bodies. The one is the earthly body or house which we desire to substitute with the other that is the heavenly body or house. As the passage says when we will be clothed upon with our heavenly body THEN “mortality will be swallowed up of life”. The reader that carefully read the last issue may remember that I Corinthians 15:35-58 says exactly the same. Really there, starting from verse 44 we read:
I Corinthians 15:44-54
“There is a natural [soul] body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual [body] is not first, but the natural [body], and afterward the spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such arethey also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy [the earthly, natural, body], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [the heavenly, spiritual body]. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.“When “will death be swallowed up in victory” (I Corinthians 15:54)? When “shall mortality be swallowed up in life” (II Corinthians 5:4)? The answer of the two passages is very clear: this will happen when “this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality”. It will happen when this “earthy” house (II Corinthians 5:1) or soul body (I Corinthians 15:44), will be substituted with the heavenly house (II Corinthians 5:2) or spiritual body (I Corinthians 15:44), which in turn will occur when the Lord will come back (I Thessalonians 4:15-17). As I Corinthians 15:52-54 tells us, “THEN [and only then] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.“
From all the above it should be clear that the context of the “controversial” passage of II Corinthians 5:6-8 does not speak for death as a hope but for the changing of the bodies, from earthly to heavenly, and from soul to spiritual, which as we saw will happen in the day of the Lord’s coming. With this in mind, let’s now reread verses 6-8:
II Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (the earthly body), we are absent from the Lord (we need the heavenly body to be with him): For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body (the earthly body), and to be present with the Lord.”Being in this body we are absent from the Lord. Do we therefore want to be absent from this earthly body? Of course yes, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Does it mean that we want to die? Of course not. Really where does the passage says something like this? In contrast, as II Corinthians 5:4 made clear: “we DON’T want to be unclothed, BUT to be clothed upon”. What therefore we should really desire is not to die (be “unclothed”) for then though we may be absent from the earthly body we will also be absent from the Lord for we will not have the heavenly body either. In contrast, what we should really desire is to be “clothed upon” with our heavenly body, abandoning the present earthly body. Only then, when our earthly body will have been substituted by our heavenly body, we will be present with the Lord (II Thessalonians 4:17). When will this happen? I Corinthians 15 was very clear: “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. God bless
Hi t8 and Nick
thew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
This resurrection of several believers was one of the phenomena accompanying the resurrection of Jesus Christ to underscore that monumental event. These saints came back to physical life. (In the Bible, the word saints means those who are sanctified or set apart as holy, meaning all of God’s true followers.) We know from such scriptures as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 that God has resurrected no one to eternal life as an immortal spirit yet—except Christ.
For example 1Thessalonians 4:15-17says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
These references teach us that God will change the righteous dead along with living Christians to immortal beings when Jesus Christ returns.
After God brought the people mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53 back to life, they undoubtedly went back to their homes, where many acquaintances saw them. It’s hard to imagine how utterly startling such an experience would be for their relatives and friends!
The Bible says nothing further about these people God resurrected at Christ’s death, leaving us to conclude that they eventually died (again) and their families buried them (again). Along with all other saints who died, they await in their graves their resurrection to spirit life. I have to assume they where resurrected with a physical body and re died and are now waiting for the return of Christ where they will become a immortal spirit,there bodies will be un- cloth and cloth with there new heavenly bodies. Or that there the 24 elders in the book of Revelation. Which can’t be because they didn’t see the return of Christ (second coming). God bless
Hi Anthony,
Yes those who sleep in Christ are alive in the Spirit and can be woken.
The elders in Revelation are not human but are angelic sons.
Hi T8,
No you believe in your UNDERSTANDING of scripture.
Prov 3.5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
Your foundation is weak.
Hi Anthony,
Ps 139.7
Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence?
If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there. If I make my bed in Sheol, behold Thou art there.
If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest art of the sea,
even there Thy hand will lead me, and thy right hand will lay hold of me.
The faithful Spirit never leaves the anointed ones even in death.
Hi T8,
You have made your understanding your foundation.
You are your own foundation.
A wise man digs deep and lays his foundation on rock.
Hi t8,
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This passage says that many saints, NOT ALL, made an appearance to many people. NOTICE that it was many BODIES of the saints that appeared to many. This passage says absolutely nothing about them receiving eternal life or going to be with God in some form in heaven.
They “appeared” and then what happened? Thessalonians 4 Hebrews 11 should clarify what happened, they appeared and then went back to the grave to sleep the sleep of death until the trumpet is sounded and those in Christ awake to hear his voice, receive eternal life, meet Christ in the air to then be forever with him.
Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Verse 14, as Jesus died and rose again, this is the same reward for those that sleep the sleep of death in him. Verse 16, the DEAD will rise to eternal life first. THEY are NOT descending and being placed in a body that rises, they are DEAD and receiving LIFE.
There are some pretty significant saints listed in Hebrews 11 below, and they are spoken of as still being dead having died waiting TO BE RESURRECTED with a body that can never die, a perfect body. The promise the reward spoken here is said to be the resurrection. There is no mention or hint that they have been in heaven with God in some form and are reunited with a body. Such would be so easy to mention, but instead what is mentioned is the manner in which some of these saints died, being slain with the sword or stoned, having kept their unrelenting faith, which serves as a good report, making them worthy to obtain the promises, the resurrection, the perfection.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This is a problem you have t8, as you misinterpret Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5, to be present with the Lord does not mean that you do not have a body, Paul was not longing for not having a body, he was longing to have a body that did not tempt him, that did not draw him away from following God’s laws. Jesus was raised with a body that did not see decay, he was raised in glory and power, he was raised incorruptible (though some deny this Christ and say that the flesh and bones body he was raised with, that people were witnesses to, was not his incorruptible body, they say he received another body after he ascended to heaven, but there exists NO scripture that speaks of such a claim). 1 Corinthians 15 tells us of the BODY Christ was raised with, that the people were witnesses to it, seeing his glory. This was in fact a spiritual body, death no longer has dominion over him, he is no longer able to be tempted as he was before. He arose from the dead with a PERFECT body. The flesh of Jesus was not allowed to see DECAY, instead it was made incorruptible, but it seems you and others don’t even believe that he still has this body anymore, SO I ASK you WHERE is this BODY that God had promised King David, that it would NOT see DECAY??
2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight🙂 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Paul desires to be clothed with eternal life, to have mortality be swallowed up of life. Paul is speaking of the MORTAL body, the WEAK body, the body that tempts, the body that fears death and causes the mind to serve it in a manner against God’s laws. To be spiritually minded is to MORTIFY this body and it’s deeds (Romans 7), if you are not spiritually minded you instead are at home with your body, it is comfortable to you and you have no issue with it’s deeds, thus you feel right at home with it. “The body” here, the one in which every person must appear before the judgment seat with, according to the things they had done in it whether good or bad, is the BODY Paul is speaking of. NOT any body at all, as in we must not have a BODY at all in order to be present with the Lord. Paul states also in Romans 7 that his hope is in the REDEMPTION and DELIVERANCE of his BODY, not to not have a body at all.
For goodness sake, Jesus was resurrected from the dead with a body, he was most certainly present with the God. It is the MORTAL body that we must not feel at home in, in order to be present with the Lord. Romans 8 is where Paul says that those who mortify the deeds of the body are those that are led by the Spirit. If you are being led by God’s Spirit you are at home with the Lord, verses feeling at home in your body.
In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul’s message is not that when you die you are at home with the Lord because you don’t have a body. How does that make any sense when we are to be like Christ resurrected with an incorruptible body?
Paul’s message was that for the time one must spend in his weak mortal body, he needs to be spiritually minded, he needs to mortify that body, loath that body and desire for mortality to be swallowed up to life. The mortal body is the body of sin, as Paul tells us we are all our lifetime subjected to bondage through the fear of death. Having a body that can no longer die, we are no longer able to sin, we are no longer in bondage, there is nothing that can draw us away from God’s law and serving Him.
Paul called himself a wretched man in Romans 7, because he wanted to serve the law but his flesh was weak, he was thankful that Jesus died paying for his sins. Paul said war was going on in his mind, there were times where he found himself at home in his body, “7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.”
Paul was mortifying his body, he recognized his weakness, the result was he was spiritually minded, and he had faith that God was going to deliver him from this body and swallow up mortality to life. This faith this mindset of mortifying the body instead of feeling at home in it, was his good report, like those in Hebrews 11. Paul will be raised at the call of Jesus and meet him in the air, receiving a body that can never die, and he will be forever with him.
The message of 2 Corinthians 5 is that we need to be spiritually minded over our weak mortal bodies and our reward is to have a body that is redeemed, NOT that when we die we will go be with God and not have a body. It’s like you aren’t listening to a word of what Paul taught to the Romans and the Corinthians, you are pulling out a verse and disregarding all of Paul’s teachings and instead you are sucked into theology created by pagans who loved Plato and established false Christian doctrines.
Come out t8 of these false teachings! May God open your mind to see what Paul was teaching us, as it is a crucial message that we must understand and follow in order to obtain a body that can never die. We desire God because we likewise loath our mortal bodies, as it is weak and draws us away from God. We desire the redemption of our bodies because we desire to follow God’s laws. Jesus is our example as he denied the flesh and submitted always to the will of God. For this reason he was able to pay for our sins having remained perfect, for this reason he is able to be an understanding judge for he knows how horrible it was to be in a mortal body that was weak to temptation.
We are to set our minds on the fact that we will have a body that he now has. Knowing this strengthens us, it encourages us to deny temptation, and when we fail and turn and loath ourselves and our mortal bodies, God has built up our faith and our hope all the more, and we in turn are all the more thankful to Christ for paying for our sins.
Hi Jodi,
Who are in the great crowd of witnesses in Heb 12?
The anointed ones alive in the Spirit spoken of in Heb 11.
Hi Nick
You got that part only Nick that the 24 elders we’re angelic sons. Very good Nick. those who sleep in Christ are alive in the Spirit and can be woken. What do you mean by that? That we’re half dead and the other part is alive. Does that mean He only have to use half His power And breath to resurrected us at the second coming of Christ. That just doesn’t seem right , seems like a half truth. Wouldn’t it be better to admit that it’s not our spirit but God and that He gave us our personalities, charatcha and everything Nick nothing is ours it’s ALL His and our spirit go back to where it came from, God. God bless. don’t turn yourself out to be something your not.
Hi Anthony,
The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11.29
The gift of the Spirit is not taken away from the anointed ones.
The Spirit of Life abides in them and the Spirit cannot die
Hi Anthony,
I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish.
jn 10.2
I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me shall live even if he dies.
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Do you not believe in the Spirit?
And would you add to the teaching and say all will be saved?
Jodi….GOOD question sis, yes where is the “BODY” that was promised not to see DECAY. IF Jesus turned to a spirit as many assume, then where is that body that was promised not to see DECAY?
TELL US Nick and TC AND ANY OTHERS that believe we turn to spirits without a body, when we are resurected?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Gene,
When immortality is put over the mortality what becomes of the mortal? 1Cor 15
Same as with the one we follow.
So sad to see you wanting to be stuck in the flesh forever.
Hi Nick,
You said,
“Who are in the great crowd of witnesses in Heb 12?
The anointed ones alive in the Spirit spoken of in Heb 11.”
I will define who these witnesses are according to who Paul says they are, and not rely on your mind and who you think they are Nick.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 12:11 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Paul said that they are surrounded by a multitude of witnesses, those witnesses Nick are people who are listening to Paul speak, witnesses that were ALIVE hearing the gospel from Paul himself, who will then be able to spread God’s word. Paul speaks of these witnesses who surround him in other passages, none of these passages INCLUDING Hebrews 12, speak of “anointed ones alive in the Spirit.”
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
1 thess 2:10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
What is it that they are to believe in? That the DEAD will RISE to LIFE because they believed and had faith. That as Jesus was resurrected from being dead, being the first from those that SLEPT, we will also will be made as he is.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Did Paul understand sleep according to the words of David, Daniel and Jesus, who all spoke of being dead as being asleep, I am sure he did.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Sleeping refers to being DEAD, it does not refer to having a spirit that is alive and conscious. No passage says that your dead body arises to be reunited with a living part of you. You become living again when you are resurrected from being dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Paul does not WISH to be unclothed, but clothed with a redeemed body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Paul does not want to feel naked and ashamed anymore.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
When Paul spoke he was NOT WAITING to die and have part of him go to heaven, Paul was waiting for something that ONLY Jesus currently has. He was waiting to be clothed with immortality an IMPERISHABLE BODY. That is when death is swallowed up into victory, when the trumpet will sound.
Is Paul alive in heaven right now still groaning for that body? He does not have it yet, it comes at Christ’s return. Being in a state where you have no body at all, how does Paul think, how does Paul feel, how does Paul know anything, how does he animate those thoughts and feelings?.. he doesn’t have a brain nor a body, it decayed.
Paul knows when he has a body that cannot die he is no longer a slave fearing death, he is FREE, he has been made perfect, NOW ABLE to follow God’s laws. When you are dead you have no ability to reason as wise Solomon tells us, with no ability to even reason how is a person able to obey God? Paul recognized that with a rescued body he could obey God, that is what the end of Romans 7 tells us.
Like I said earlier it is pure foolishness to think that Paul longed to be without a body, he longed to not have a body of sin anymore. Paul longed to have what Jesus was raised with, a body that can no longer die. He longed to be clothed with this body.
When you teach people that when you die if you are in Christ you live with him in heaven without a body, you are speaking pure vanity, emptiness.
we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.
You Nick are teaching a FALSE hope, a LIE that bears NO FRUIT. Paul teaches that we are to long for the body that Christ has, because it is WITH that body that we are able to follow God’s laws. When we follow God’s laws we are functioning as He intended us to function, living a life of pure peace and happiness.
So sad to see Nick you think so little of God’s creation of MAN and His work in perfecting him. So sad that when we are told specifically that upon Jesus being raised from the dead he was in FACT raised in POWER and in GLORY in a body that never saw decay, and you don’t believe it. So sad you don’t believe in these words of God, 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.32 God has raised THIS Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit..
THIS JESUS Nick! Which is my Jesus, but apparently not yours, which is very sad that your eyes are so blind, it just makes me all the more thankful to God that mine are not.
30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
Gene nor I want to be stuck in the flesh of a MORTAL body, we want to be in the flesh that Adam and Eve had originally, but not having the same mind as they did as they had a mind that was ignorant, foolish, and without faith. We want the mind of Jesus, and the very type of glorious body Jesus was RAISED WITH, one that does not experience pain, or fear. You dishonor that body, you say it no longer exists, you say that Jesus had been changed once again, of which you have no scripture to prove such.
We are told what man’s problem is, in his MIND he has problems, he seeks his own way he trusts in his imagination of which is fueled by ignorance.
We are told what man’s problem is, he has WEAK corruptible flesh that tempts him, that makes him a slave to sin as he is in bondage to the fear of death.
Jesus was raised with a flesh and bones body, Jesus was raised with power, glory, Jesus was raised incorruptible, that would mean that he was raised with flesh that is not only immortal but flesh that cannot die. Jesus was raised with a body that has eternal life,that no longer has temptations, and with a mind that had been perfected through suffering. Jesus is still the Son of MAN, the offspring of David.
Jesus was NOT deserving of death, but it had to be done, but God would make certain that the body that remained without sin would NEVER SEE DECAY, instead it would be given eternal life. If the very thing that God created, and then made it capable of dying and decaying, why is it so hard for you to believe that that very thing He can also make eternal?
Are you so blind and foolish that you do not know that our brain allows us to think, reason, learn, love, have faith, obey, and that our brain is an organ within our bodies? Is it really so hard to understand that God created the human brain in order to take it from ignorance to wisdom and faith? Is it so difficult to understand that God made us ignorant and then weak so that He could show us His power, wisdom, and truth, to give us a reason to want us to learn from Him, be led by Him and have FAITH in Him? How else would we know the source of truth and life? Jesus is STILL a human being, God’s creation of HUMANS has been perfected in him. He is spiritual, not because he was changed into a spirit being, some other sort of creature, but because his mind and body are perfect unable to separate him from God.
The MORTAL body of Jesus was changed into being immortal, the body of Jesus was reprogrammed to sustain life eternally, instead of programmed to grow old and eventually give out and die. The cells within his body do not live from blood needing nutrients to be delivered to it in order to remain living, his body is immortal through the water of life.
Hi Jodi
Very GOOD post excellent. Thanks God bless Jodi. Nick she telling you the truth you need to look in to these things. God bless Nick
Hi All I like this saying not that imI”m all about Martin Luther.there always seem to be Truth and falseness together . Take the truth through the falseness away.
No one could put it more clearly or forcefully than Martin Luther as he boldly and defiantly proclaimed before the Diet of Worms: “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason — I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other — my conscience is captive to the Word of God. . . . Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.”
God bless.
Nick…Jodi’s right brother, Jesus is not a spirit being, he still is a “human being”, with a flesh and bone body, the exact same one he was raised with, it never saw decay, he never sinned. That body is spiritually sustained and will live forever, just as Adam and Eve could have, had they not sinned and eaten of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden. Just as God said, “least”, they never die, just as they were.
There is nothing wrong with having a flesh and bone body that doesn’t sin and can live forever Nick, it is the plan and will of God for us all to have. We as Jesus will be raised in a body of glory and honor and power and be as he is at our resurection, or change when he comes.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
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