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Hi Jodi,
You:
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every “living” creature, that was the name thereof.Me: I don’t know how in the world you came to the conclusion that I didn’t believe man is a living soul like the beast are. Doesn’t the scripture above tell you that Adam had communications with the animals before he sinned. Man had dominion over the animal kingdom before he sinned and in the end will regain that dominion.
Hi Jodi,
You: Man is different in that he as a living soul that has a higher functioning brain with a heart and a mind that exists in his body, which can be led by God to know Him and to learn from Him, other mammals with brains do not have this ability.
Me: You are mostly wrong. man will have dominion over the animals like before he sinned.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
Me The animals have a close relationship with man. When man sinned, the whole creation was subject to death because they all are of one breath.
Romans 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God…21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now
Numbers 22:25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall: and he smote her again. 26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. 27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. 35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Isa 43:20) is a parallel verse.Me: When all things are restored, the whole creation will be of the one holy spirit. All hearts and minds will be in all through the holy spirit There will be communication between all like in the beginning (Gen 2:19-20). The serpent was more subtitle than any of the other beast. So the other beasts were able to communicate with Adam. So the beast of the field will worship God.
Hi Jodi,
You:
Romans 12: 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ephesians 4: 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Paul and likewise others speaks of us having ONE MIND, they also speak of our problem being IGNORANCE within that mind. We are NOT given a second mind, our minds are taught, they are led away from ignorance, they need to be renewed. There is one mind and it can follow earthly things or it can follow heavenly things.Me: Wrong again.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Me: Romans 12:2 is pertaining to the spirit mind. Renewing is to grow better in that mind. When Adam sinned, he died to his spirit mind. That death was bequeathed to all flesh. That mind is renewed at being born from above. A new heart will be in all our minds. It is the human heart of Christ in our new minds (Ezk 36:26-27). All things become new ( Rev 21:5). A new heart, mind, spirit, and body. That is being born again. Our old man is crucified. It will not be brought forward.
Hi TC,
You need to slow down!! I just copied and pasted all of your recent posts when I joined conversation with you and it totals 36 pages!! I am going through it and it is difficult to respond to, lol.
I suggest waiting for someone to respond to a few things you post before posting more things.
Hi All
our bodies will be raised not spiritually or ethereally, but physically and materially. Our souls will be reunited with our transformed physical bodies, brought back to life from the dead. Scripture teaches this in many ways.
First, simply to speak of a “resurrection” of the dead (Matthew 22:30-31; Luke 14:14; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) is to imply physicality. That is what a resurrection is. The Bible has no categories for the concept of a resurrected body that remains dead and physically lying in a grave.
Second, Philippians 3:20-21teaches us that Christ’s resurrection body is the pattern of our resurrection body: “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory.” We know that Christ was raised in a physical body because the disciples ate with Him after the resurrection (Acts 10:41) and touched Him (Matthew 28:9; see also John 20:27). Also, Jesus outright declared that His resurrection body was physical and touchable: “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39; see also Acts 13:33-37). Since Christ’s resurrection is the pattern of our resurrection, we will therefore be raised in a physical body as well.
Third, Romans 8:21-23 speaks of waiting for “the redemption of our bodies” (v. 23). Our bodies are not going to be thrown away. They are going to be renewed, restored, revitalized.
Fourth, Jesus speaks of the resurrection as involving the coming forth of individuals out of their tombs, which clearly indicates a physical concept of the resurrection: “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).
Fifth, the Old Testament speaks of the resurrection as being physical: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). Likewise, we read in Job: “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, and whom my eyes shall see and not another. My heart faints within Me” (Job 19:25-27). Yes Gene we have the same body like Jesus Christ had. Yes He is the pattern. God bless. We will be like Him.
Hi TC,
You said, “Comment: The promise of the holy spirit occurred from Pentecost, not from the resurrection of the body at the second coming of Christ. David had not received of the promise before this. But he did at Pentecost where he was baptized with the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it. yes he was baptized in the grave (1 Peter 3:16)”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Holy Spirit was given to those alive in order to teach them, and then for them to bring the gospel and baptism to others. They were bestowed with different gifts of the Spirit. Paul speaks of these gifts to the Corinthians, where each person with their gift creates one body. We read in Acts 2 of the day of Pentecost and in that same chapter David is referred to as still being dead.
There is NOTHING about David receiving the Holy Spirit at that time or him receiving the human spirit of Jesus, as a matter of FACT what we are told is the opposite, that he is still DEAD. There is also nothing about those receiving these different gifts of the Spirit, are also at that time receiving a spirit that does not die (that sounds like twisted Greek philosophy to me).
This is an extremely odd statement you made, “he was baptized with the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it.”
They were baptized into God’s Spirit. This baptism was to work into them faith to cause them to be of a mind that mortifies the deeds of weak mortal flesh, and that desires a body like that of Jesus one that cannot be tempted, one incapable of sin, one that has eternal life. They were baptized being called by God to be led by His Spirit so that it would work faith into their hearts and minds, and they would be worthy of being raised unto the first resurrection, the resurrection of eternal life.
They were not baptized with an immortal spirit, that you are calling the “human mind of Christ”, there is no scripture that speaks of such.
Gene already described to you the 7 Spirits of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was anointed at the river Jordan receiving the fullness of God’s Spirit, all the 7 Spirits were working in him, meaning they were influencing his human mind. No other man received this glory of God, but man throughout time have received different gifts from God’s Spirit, both before Jesus was born and after Jesus was raised from the dead. Moses, David, Paul, John..ect, all received portions of the Holy Spirit. Some of the prophets like David even saw the future of the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God having eternal life.
Acts 1: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he,ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Jesus does not say they receive his human spirit, he says they receive God’s Spirit, and it works in them in similar manner that it worked in Jesus.
Galatians 5: 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
The mind that was in Jesus, and likewise the mind that Paul told his brethren they should have, is the mind of a human that is led by God’s Spirit and follows God’s will.
When one is led by God’s Spirit they believe in the gospel of Jesus, that as God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be also raised from the dead.
Romans 1: 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
God’s Spirit causes our spirit to believe in the gospel of Jesus. When we believe in this gospel of Christ, Christ is in us, his spirit is in us. We can actually hold the spirit of anyone within us, it is to remember them and their life, whether they be alive or dead, and we allow it to INFLUENCE us.
What did Jesus accomplish through God’s Spirit? He DENIED his flesh, he walked not after the flesh but after the Spirit. In that walk he committed the ultimate act of faith and was perfected through it. His weak flesh told him to ask God to take this cup from him, but that was not God’s will, and Jesus honored God’s will going to the cross. We are to follow Christ’s example, when we do it represents Christ being in us, as we acknowledge what Jesus accomplished through being led by God’s Spirit.
Those that are in Christ walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, this means we are being just like Christ, we are being led by the Spirit of God, following the will of God instead of the will of man. Because we have knowledge that Christ paid the penalty for our sins we are to walk with newness of life, as we have hope in the resurrection. In Christ the body of sin is destroyed, we are to obtain that same body and act now as if we have that body, though as Paul shows us in Romans 7 that is a challenge, but that challenge is what causes us all the more to desire a new body, as we morify the deeds of the flesh. Paul tells us in Romans chapter 5:3 And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
The body that Jesus has now is incapable of temptation and thus incapable of sin. All our lifetimes we were subjected to bondage by the fear of death, but in the resurrected body that has eternal life we are free from the fear of death and thus temptation. We now are to walk not having the fear of death, being strengthened through the knowledge of Christ and his resurrection and that we will be as he is. Jesus said, “ For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.” Christ no longer has the enmity, we do, but we have knowledge, we have faith, we have hope given to us by God’s Spirit influencing our spirit, teaching and leading us. Though we still have that enmity we desire for it to be no more, and we know that it shall be no more, and we will be free, being able to follow God’s laws having nothing that draws us away from Him. The knowledge of Christ in us given through God’s Spirit, works as strength to fight against the enmity. We should not be afraid to lose our lives for Jesus’s sake, for if we do we will find it, in the resurrection.
TC, Jesus was not born with a special spirit at his birth, he grew similar to that of John having God’s grace upon him. When he was about 30 years old, which is the age that a male brain is said to be fully mature, is when he was given the full measure of God’s Spirit, a huge responsibility. It was not given when he was an infant, or when he was 3, or when he was 16, or when he was 21, God forbid! It was given to him when he had grown into a man, when his brain had reached a point of specific development of which God designed in humans. I really don’t find this just to be a coincidence.
Hi TC,
Let’s go through this again,
You responded,
“Me: NO!!!
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.
Me: Christ mean that Jesus will rise now from his physical death.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day Me: Martha thought that what the Messiah said in vs 23 was that his brother would rise in the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. Me: Christ corrected Martha in that she though he was talking about the last day. He was talking about raising her brother from the dead now. This can be extended to addressing all that are dead then from his resurrection. How do we know this? Read the next verse.
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Me: Thus, those he will raise from the dead are all those that will be resurrection from the dead and never die—after the Messiah had ascended into heaven.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Me: This is referring to those disciples who die after his resurrection and glorification. They will never die. Their bodies will, but not their hearts and minds, and that is what counts.
The “dead in Christ” refers to those that have died with him in the baptism of the spirit and have risen spiritually into heaven. Those alive have not had their hearts and minds resurrected yet. They must die first, for it is appointed for all men to do so. That is why they are resurrected into heaven after those that Christ brings with him.”
You have it wrong, and I also had it a little wrong as well.
Let’s read it again carefully,
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 6: 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
What Martha said was a correct statement but Jesus needed to add to it because it was missing something very important.
Jesus says that he is the resurrection and the life, for those that believe in him though they die they will live. They will not just live, Jesus continues to say in verse 26 they will never die.
The ONE WHO BELIEVES in me will LIVE, even though THEY DIE, and whoever LIVES (speaking of those that LIVE after being dead because they believed in him) THEY will NEVER DIE.
Jesus WAS NOT CORRECTING MARTHA and going on to speak of Lazarus being raised from the dead momentarily, he was adding to what she said in regards to the resurrection, as Martha missed part of what Jesus had preached in John 6:39, she only said that her brother would live again in the resurrection, so Jesus went on to tell her that he would not just live, but that he would never die, he would have eternal life upon being raised from the dead on the last day.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It is appointed for those that believe in Christ to die ONCE, but they appear a second time without sin, unto salvation. Sin equates to death. Appearing a second time without sin would mean there is no more death, our salvation is to never die again but to have eternal life.
Hi TC,
You responded,
“Me: NO!!!
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.
Me: Christ mean that Jesus will rise now from his physical death.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day Me: Martha thought that what the Messiah said in vs 23 was that his brother would rise in the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. Me: Christ corrected Martha in that she though he was talking about the last day. He was talking about raising her brother from the dead now. This can be extended to addressing all that are dead then from his resurrection. How do we know this? Read the next verse.
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Me: Thus, those he will raise from the dead are all those that will be resurrection from the dead and never die—after the Messiah had ascended into heaven.
You have it wrong, and I also had it a little wrong as well.
Let’s read it again carefully,
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Consider also,
John 6: 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
What Martha said was a correct statement but Jesus needed to add to it because it was missing something very important.
Jesus says that he is the resurrection and the life, for those that believe in him though they die they will live. They will not just live, Jesus continues to say in verse 26 they will never die.
The ONE WHO BELIEVES in me will LIVE, even though THEY DIE, and whoever LIVES (speaking of those that LIVE after being dead because they believed in him) THEY will NEVER DIE.
Jesus WAS NOT CORRECTING MARTHA and going on to speak of Lazarus being raised from the dead momentarily, he was adding to what she said in regards to the resurrection that occurs on the last day, as Martha missed part of what Jesus had preached in John 6:39, she only said that her brother would live again in the resurrection, so Jesus went on to tell her that he would not just live, but that he would never die, he would have eternal life upon being raised from the dead on the last day.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It is appointed for those that believe in Christ to die ONCE, but they appear a second time without sin, unto salvation. Sin equates to death. Appearing a second time without sin would mean there is no more death, our salvation is to never die again but have eternal life.
Hi TC,
Yes every time we see the word arise in scripture it does not represent to rise from the dead. It can mean to rise from actually sleeping, or to arise from sitting, etc..
That does not eradicate the below scripture,
Luke 2:37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
Mark 12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven
Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him….16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the DEAD in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
or
Daniel 12:2 (YLT) `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.
Daniel a prophet who saw the coming resurrection, does not say that people with immortal minds rise from resting with Jesus in heaven to receive their immortal bodies at Christ’s second coming. He says some of THOSE sleeping IN the DUST of the ground AWAKE to eternal life. So note you have all the dead sleeping in the ground, but those that are Christs wake to eternal life and they wake first. Jesus spoke of death specifically as sleep, when he used the word sleep he was misunderstood so he plainly told the apostles that no, what I mean is that he is dead. This fits perfectly with what Daniel said, those that are sleeping in the dust of the ground whether they be sinners or righteous we are to understand as Jesus spoke, they are dead, they are not alive with an immortal mind resting in heaven with Jesus. “The DEAD in Christ will rise first” where are they rising from, from being dead,they are said to have fallen asleep, not that they are awake with immortal minds.
TC you are in complete denial of what scriptures actually say. The Holy Spirit that people receive is the gifts of God’s Spirit, not some immortal mind. There exists no passage that speaks of immortal minds resting with Jesus that rise to receive their immortal bodies.
There is not a passage that states that when Christ rose from the dead people thereafter, the dead and alive, received immortal minds. Like I said before, David is said to still be dead, Hebrews 11 Paul is speaking of people before Christ lived, but he is talking about them after Christ was raised from the dead, and he says, “13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth…39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” Paul is not speaking of these people as though they are alive in heaven with an immortal mind, he is speaking clearly that they are dead waiting for the promise of eternal life that occurs on the last day at the last trumpet.
Paul’s hope was that his body would be delivered because he knew that having a body that could no longer die, he would no longer have the enmity making war in his mind, he would no longer be a wretched man having mortal flesh, where he mortified it, he would have a body of glory that no longer had him bound asking for service, he would be free to serve the law of God.
Paul said that when a man is at home in the body he is away from the Lord. Paul also said, “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.” and “Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.” and “The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.” and “The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.” and “Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.” and “Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.” and “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
A few points to make from the above passage, when Paul spoke about being at home with the body or being at home with the Lord, he was speaking of having a MIND that was either following the flesh or following God’s Spirit. We know that Paul’s hope was in deliverance of his body, not in having his mind after death go and be with the God. As Paul knew that this knew body would destroy the enmity that he had in his mind because of his mortal body.
Second point, Paul speaks of ONE MIND, that mind was either walking after the flesh or walking after God’s Spirit. That mind was to be clothed in Jesus Christ and not THINK about gratifying the desires of the flesh.
Third point, the Holy Spirit was coming not to place an immortal mind into people, but we are specifically told it was coming to TEACH and cause REMEMBRANCE of the things which Jesus had spoken to them of. Remember what Jesus spoke of, remembering the gospel that was spoken, is to clothe yourself in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15 plainly states that ALL are STILL DYING because of Adam, just as they did before Christ rose from the dead.
It must be exhausting for you TC, having to twist so many scriptures in order to fit your theology.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Christ here represents Jesus, not Jesus and the saints.
There were those that said that there is no resurrection, and Paul explained if there is not a resurrection then we are still in our sins and Christ is still dead. But Paul being a witness himself of Christ’s resurrection, is not a liar, he knows for certain that Christ was in fact raised from the dead and that he at that rising became “the firsfruits” of those who have fallen asleep.
Notice TC that up to this point the Christ being spoken of is Jesus and Jesus alone, not Jesus and the saints. This Jesus is said to be “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Then we are told that in Adam all die, but in Christ all will be made ALIVE. This is against what you are trying to teach.
I have already showed you that in John 11:26 those being spoken of that LIVE and never die, are specifically those from verse 25 that are said to live even though they have died, because Jesus is the Resurrection. When those that live even though they died awake in the resurrection they are those that LIVE that will NEVER DIE.
You want to say that people alive after Christ was raised from the dead, they never die, their bodies may die, but they received a mind that can never die. You also say that those that were dead before like David, woke to receive a mind that can never die, and they go rest with Jesus in heaven, but will receive a body later.
But in fact Paul never speaks of anything of the sort, he tells us that people are still dying, that as in Adam all are still dying, that has NOT CHANGED. Also in Christ all will be made alive, whether they are sinners or his followers, we are not told anything about Christ making people alive by waking them from the dead and giving them an immortal mind without a body.
VERSE 20 identifies Christ as Jesus being the firstfruits, but then you want to turn and say that now in verse 23 it means Jesus and his saints. This is just ridiculous for two reasons, first you don’t think that verse 20 applies to verse 23, and second you deny that the saints would obviously be those that BELONG to HIM in verse 23, which are said to be made ALIVE at his second coming.
If Christ also represents the saints, then who are those that belong to him at his coming made alive????
Another MAJOR problem that you have is Paul is speaking about the resurrection, how Christ was resurrected from the DEAD, in his resurrection he was not raised with just an immortal mind, he was raised with a flesh and bones body. If you want to assert that Christ in verse 23 represents the saints also, then you are going to have to tell me that they already have their eternal bodies as well, because Jesus certainly obtained his when he rose from the dead.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Being raised from the dead you become the firstfruits of the Spirit, the saints are promised to be raised from the dead being adopted to sonship and having their bodies redeemed. This is why Paul said that they groan, they have been promised the firstfruits of the Spirit, they desire a body that they will no longer mortify but be in glory of.
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption TO SONSHIP, the redemption of our bodies.
Christ raised from the dead is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. Christ was raised from the dead with his body not seeing decay, it was raised incorruptible, with power, and with glory. His body was redeemed from being dead.
Likewise for the saints, firstfruits of the Spirit is the adoption to sonship the redemption of our bodies.
In relation to I Corinthians 15 and Romans 8 firstfruits represents the Holy Spirit resurrecting the body and giving it eternal life.
You are trying to say that the saints are in heaven and have the firstfruits already, the firstfruits to Christ meant he had his body redeemed, but for the saints you tell us their body is redeemed later. You speak complete nonsense!!
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We are still being told that up to the time of the last trumpet, ALL are still dying because of Adam. The DEAD shall be raised incorruptibe, not immortal minds shall be risen from their rest in heaven with Jesus and receive an incorruptible body.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
We are told that at the last day, at the last trump, the DEAD will rise again in the resurrection, they will not only rise and LIVE, but that they will LIVE and never die.
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
You say TC that Jesus says that they don’t die as you completely misinterpret John 11, you continue this absurd doctrine, even though we are told by Jesus that the saints do die, that Jesus says that if they be faithful unto death, they will receive the crown of life.
Jesus did not say be faithful when your body dies, I will give your immortal mind an immortal body. Jesus told us death equated to sleep, Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life, as life occurring by way of being resurrected. Jesus never said, I am the immortal mind which I give to all those who receive the Holy Spirit.
Jodi, you nailed it sis, and Anthony also. I see it that way also. Hope TC comes around too.
Peace and love to you and Anthony and yours…….gene
Hi Jodi,
You quoted me:
“Comment: The promise of the holy spirit occurred from Pentecost, not from the resurrection of the body at the second coming of Christ. David had not received of the promise before this. But he did at Pentecost where he was baptized with the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it. yes he was baptized in the grave (1 Peter 3:16)”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
You:
The Holy Spirit was given to those alive in order to teach them, and then for them to bring the gospel and baptism to others. They were bestowed with different gifts of the Spirit. Paul speaks of these gifts to the Corinthians, where each person with their gift creates one body. We read in Acts 2 of the day of Pentecost and in that same chapter David is referred to as still being dead.There is NOTHING about David receiving the Holy Spirit at that time or him receiving the human spirit of Jesus, as a matter of FACT what we are told is the opposite, that he is still DEAD.
Me: No, you read in the KJV that Christ was still dead. Mostly the other versions have “died”. I had shown this to you before. Click on the link below to the Greek text. to see for youself.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-29.htm
It says that David “died”, not “is dead”.
Click on the link below:
https://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm
23 out of 28 do not have “is dead” but “died”
Verse 31 is another bad translation as “is not” instead “was “.You: There is NOTHING about David receiving the Holy Spirit at that time or him receiving the human spirit of Jesus, as a matter of FACT what we are told is the opposite, that he is still DEAD. There is also nothing about those receiving these different gifts of the Spirit, are also at that time receiving a spirit that does not die (that sounds like twisted Greek philosophy to me).
Me: I don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about here. I said we die to our mortal mind, spirit, and body. Only the holy spirit is immortal. Do I have to put “holy spirit” whenever the word “spirit” is obviously the holy spirit. We receive the heart and mind of Christ in the holy spirit after Pentecost. The heart and mind of our heavenly father was in the holy spirit. You are misquoting me. That is what is twisted.
New American Standard Bible
Acts 2:25 “For David says of Him, ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 ‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 ‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ 28 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.Me: The point of verse 25 is that David said it is Christ that was to die and be resurrected into live so he can. That he wouldn’t resurrect into life until the Messiah was resurrected from the dead. And that happened at Pentecost, not at his return to earth. That is the whole point here which you seem not to comprehend.
Hi Jody,
You: This is an extremely odd statement you made, “he was baptized with the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it.”
Me: It is odd to you because you cannot put two and two together.
There is only one spirit in the end, the holy spirit. It is the conduit to all our minds.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;…23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;Me: The holy spirit is the only spirit at the end. It is in the mind of each that is unique to each. The spirit glues our minds together as one.
You:
They were baptized into God’s Spirit. This baptism was to work into them faith to cause them to be of a mind that mortifies the deeds of weak mortal flesh, and that desires a body like that of Jesus one that cannot be tempted, one incapable of sin, one that has eternal life. They were baptized being called by God to be led by His Spirit so that it would work faith into their hearts and minds, and they would be worthy of being raised unto the first resurrection, the resurrection of eternal life.
Me: You are confessing to the spirit in the mind and hearts of the believers. I also believe this. But I believe in the human spirit mind and hearts vs the human fleshly mind and hearts.
You: They were not baptized with an immortal spirit, that you are calling the “human mind of Christ”, there is no scripture that speaks of such.
Me: Again, you are twisting what you think I said. I said we are baptized in the holy spirit that has the human heart and mind of Christ in it.
Ezk 26:36 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Me: The new heart is the heart of Christ in his human mind. Notice, “heart of flesh”. This corresponds with the human heart of Christ. This is the heart we receive through the holy spirit. The new spirit is the holy spirit.
You:
Acts 1: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he,ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Jesus does not say they receive his human spirit, he says they receive God’s Spirit, and it works in them in similar manner that it worked in Jesus.Me: I never said that we receive the human spirit of Christ. Again, for the umpteen time, I said we receive the holy spirit with the heart and mind of Christ in it. I said Christ only had one spirit, the holy spirit from birth. I have said these things countless times. You have twisted what I said because you do not understand what I have said over and over and over again.
You:
…Galatians 5: 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Me: YES
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.ME: YES, as Christ was the son of God, we become the sons of God though our death (baptism) and resurrection with him. We have crucify the flesh at this point. We do not need to follow it. At the resurrection of our bodies, we have the new flesh of Christ, the flesh of the spirit that will shine like the sun at noon day (Matt 13:43).
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
You: The mind that was in Jesus, and likewise the mind that Paul told his brethren they should have, is the mind of a human that is led by God’s Spirit and follows God’s will.
Me: Absolutely, the mind of Christ is in the spirit of God.
You: …
When one is led by God’s Spirit they believe in the gospel of Jesus, that as God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be also raised from the dead.Me: He raises us from the dead in spirit at the time of baptism. Our bodies are raised later.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
2 Tim 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Hi Jody,
You: What did Jesus accomplish through God’s Spirit? He DENIED his flesh, he walked not after the flesh but after the Spirit. In that walk he committed the ultimate act of faith and was perfected through it. His weak flesh told him to ask God to take this cup from him, but that was not God’s will, and Jesus honored God’s will going to the cross. We are to follow Christ’s example, when we do it represents Christ being in us, as we acknowledge what Jesus accomplished through being led by God’s Spirit.
Me:
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Me: Christ’s flesh was not weak like our flesh. He did not have death nor sin in it. He did not deny his flesh. Instead, he denied sin. He was powerful enough to do this. He was the lamb without blemish and the perfect sacrifice in his human flesh. He was glorified with new flesh that is with a glorified body of the celestial at his ascension into heaven. He had the spirit of God from his conception. Thus he could not sin, and did not sin. He would never had sinned in his human flesh, even if he had lived forever.
You: Those that are in Christ walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, this means we are being just like Christ, we are being led by the Spirit of God, following the will of God instead of the will of man. Because we have knowledge that Christ paid the penalty for our sins we are to walk with newness of life, as we have hope in the resurrection. In Christ the body of sin is destroyed, we are to obtain that same body and act now as if we have that body, though as Paul shows us in Romans 7 that is a challenge, but that challenge is what causes us all the more to desire a new body, as we morify the deeds of the flesh.
Me: Yes, on the surface it is the body that is destroyed. Also, “that body of sin” is metaphorically, all the sin that is within our fleshly minds. The “body of Christ” metaphorically is all the righteousness of Christ.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Me: It is the spirit of God with Christ’s sacrifice in it that mortifies or destroys that “body of sin”, the sin that is within us. It is continually crucified until we die. Then it is no more.
You: The body that Jesus has now is incapable of temptation and thus incapable of sin. …Christ no longer has the enmity, …
Me: Christ never had enmity towards God. You do badly err. If he had enmity, he had sinned.
Hi Jodi,
You: TC, Jesus was not born with a special spirit at his birth, he grew similar to that of John having God’s grace upon him. When he was about 30 years old, which is the age that a male brain is said to be fully mature, is when he was given the full measure of God’s Spirit, a huge responsibility. It was not given when he was an infant, or when he was 3, or when he was 16, or when he was 21, God forbid! It was given to him when he had grown into a man, when his brain had reached a point of specific development of which God designed in humans. I really don’t find this just to be a coincidence.
Me: Again, you do greatly err. Christ was born with the spirit of God in him as his only spirit. To say that John the Baptist was born with the spirit of God in him and not Christ is a form of blasphemy. Christ is how he revealed himself. John was an infant, just like Christ was an infant. You say that the spirit of God was not given to Christ until he had a mature mind, but was given to John when he did not have a mature mind is to crucify sound reasoning.
http://www.amatteroftruth.com/does-john-1-15-prove-jesus-preexisted
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was of higher rank (G4413) me…27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred (G4413) before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose…30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before (G4413) me.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/1-15.htm
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/1-30.htm
Emphasis in parenthesis is mineComment: “For he is before me” should have been translated as he is a higher rank than me “ (4413).
Therefore with the corrections:John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was of higher rank than me. 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred (G4413) before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose…30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was of higher rand than me.
Me: So in light of all this, Christ was of a much higher status than John when they met at Jordan. You cannot say that Christ without the spirit of God is of greater status than John with the spirit of God. No, Christ with the spirit of God from conception is greater than John with the spirit of God from birth. The baptism of Christ was the baptism of repentance. That baptism did not produce the holy spirit in anyone. John said that he needed to be baptized of Christ, not Christ be baptized by him. Christ was referring to the baptism of the spirit, for he already had the spirit of God in him. But Christ said “do it anyway” because he was still under the law.
Hi Jodi,
Hi Jodi,
You quoted me
“Me: NO!!!
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.Me: Christ meant that Jesus will rise now from his physical death.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
Me: Martha thought that what the Messiah said in vs 23 was that his brother would rise in the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
.
Me: Christ corrected Martha in that she though he was talking about the last day. He was talking about raising her brother from the dead now. This can be extended to addressing all that are dead then from his resurrection. How do we know this? Read the next verse.26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Me: Thus, those he will raise from the dead are all those that will be resurrection from the dead and never die—after the Messiah had ascended into heaven.
You: You have it wrong, and I also had it a little wrong as well.
Let’s read it again carefully,
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”Consider also,
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”Me: Salvation is not complete until we are born again of mind, spirit and body.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:… 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Me: When we die, we are out of body. We are with the Lord in spirit. Paul had a vision. He couldn’t determine if the man he saw in the vision was with the Lord when he had died, or with the Lord when he had die and then received his new body at the first resurrection. He did not see a resurrected body. hat he had seen was the heart and mind of the deceased with God.
You:
What Martha said was a correct statement but Jesus needed to add to it because it was missing something very important.
Jesus says that he is the resurrection and the life, for those that believe in him though they die they will live. They will not just live, Jesus continues to say in verse 26 they will never die.
The ONE WHO BELIEVES in me will LIVE, even though THEY DIE, and whoever LIVES (speaking of those that LIVE after being dead because they believed in him) THEY will NEVER DIE.Me: It is obvious that Lazarus did resurrect but not into everlasting life because Christ had not been resurrected yet. So Lazarus did live, but after Pentecost. He will never die at that point.
It is the spirit that gives life to the body, not the body that gives life to the spirit.
John 6:63 (NKJV) It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh (the body) profits nothing.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htmGod’s spirit never dies. So we who are of the spirit never die also.
You:
Jesus WAS NOT CORRECTING MARTHA and going on to speak of Lazarus being raised from the dead momentarily, he was adding to what she said in regards to the resurrection that occurs on the last day, as Martha missed part of what Jesus had preached in John 6:39, she only said that her brother would live again in the resurrection, so Jesus went on to tell her that he would not just live, but that he would never die, he would have eternal life upon being raised from the dead on the last day.
Me: No as explained above.
You:
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It is appointed for those that believe in Christ to die ONCE, but they appear a second time without sin, unto salvation. Sin equates to death. Appearing a second time without sin would mean there is no more death, our salvation is to never die again but have eternal life.Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 530 above “once”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-27.htm
definition: once, once for all.The “dead in Christ” are those that have died the second death that is they have died to their fleshly minds. They have died to self. They are the ones that appear first. Their corrupted bodies will rise incorruptible.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall (appear) first:
click on the link below. Then click on 3498 above dead.
Definition: Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
dead.
From an apparently primary nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun) — dead.Me: the dead in Christ are that which is dead in Christ, that is their mortal bodies. Also figuratively, they have died to self.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 23 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Please explain Phil 1:21, Luke 23:43, 2 Cor 12:1 and 2 Cor 5:8.
Hi Jodi,…
You: Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him….16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the DEAD in Christ will rise first.
Me: bring with him means that they are with him in heaven before he appears. “as I have shown you, “the Dead in Christ will rise first” can and does mean “ the dead in Christ will appear first”.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
or
Daniel 12:2 (YLT) `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.Me: Nope, we sleep in Christ, not in the dust. The dust represent death. Christ represents the resurrection of life. We are of the temple of Christ, the royal and priestly resurrection. We whose bodies deteriorate never die spiritually in the holy spirit when we decease.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Versus:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,Me: Those in vs 25 are those who shall arise spiritually in heaven after Pentecost. Those alive and then die will also arise spiritually into heaven after their bodily deaths.
Those in vs 27 are those at the end of the millennium who will rise the judgment, either to salvation then or after a terrible trail in the non literal lake of fire. They are those that died in the dust and not in Christ. All will eventually be saved.
.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.You: 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep… If Christ also represents the saints, then who are those that belong to him at his coming made alive????
Christ here represents Jesus, not Jesus and the saints.
There were those that said that there is no resurrection, and Paul explained if there is not a resurrection then we are still in our sins and Christ is still dead. But Paul being a witness himself of Christ’s resurrection, is not a liar, he knows for certain that Christ was in fact raised from the dead and that he at that rising became “the firsfruits” of those who have fallen asleep.Me: I have explained that those you say there is no resurrected had to be speaking of a spirutal resurrection and not the resurrection of bodies at the end time.
You: Notice TC that up to this point the Christ being spoken of is Jesus and Jesus alone, not Jesus and the saints. This Jesus is said to be “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Me: Totally disagree. Christ is the firstfruits of those that rest in him.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
There are only two orders here: Christ the firstfruits and those who are Christ’s at his coming. What happened to everyone else if this it is true that firstfruits represent Christ and those at his coming represent Christians who are saved?
No, The firstfruits (plural) represent the temple of God, who is Christ and his saints. Those at his coming represent the rest of mankind.
Hi Jodi,
You: Then we are told that in Adam all die, but in Christ all will be made ALIVE. This is against what you are trying to teach.
I have already showed you that in John 11:26 those being spoken of that LIVE and never die, are specifically those from verse 25 that are said to live even though they have died, because Jesus is the Resurrection. When those that live even though they died awake in the resurrection they are those that LIVE that will NEVER DIE.
You want to say that people alive after Christ was raised from the dead, they never die, their bodies may die, but they received a mind that can never die. You also say that those that were dead before like David, woke to receive a mind that can never die, and they go rest with Jesus in heaven, but will receive a body later.Me: Yes, once again:
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:… 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradisePhil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 23 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
You: But in fact Paul never speaks of anything of the sort, he tells us that people are still dying, that as in Adam all are still dying, that has NOT CHANGED. Also in Christ all will be made alive, whether they are sinners or his followers, we are not told anything about Christ making people alive by waking them from the dead and giving them an immortal mind without a body.
Me: I just showed it to you that the spirit of God does not die. And those in Christ that die bodily will never die spiritually. So what if people are still dying. What does that have to do with anything we are discussing here and the price of beans in China? All the saints that die in Christ never die again, no matter when they die.
You: VERSE 20 identifies Christ as Jesus being the firstfruits, but then you want to turn and say that now in verse 23 it means Jesus and his saints. This is just ridiculous for two reasons, first you don’t think that verse 20 applies to verse 23, and second you deny that the saints would obviously be those that BELONG to HIM in verse 23, which are said to be made ALIVE at his second coming
Me:
1 Cor 15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept…23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.Me: In vs 20, Christ became the first fruits of them that slept in him. They are the firstfruits along with him in vs 23.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.Me: Christ has become the firstfruits of them (Christians) that have slept in him. It says present tense, “become”. We are his body figuratively.
You: Another MAJOR problem that you have is Paul is speaking about the resurrection, how Christ was resurrected from the DEAD, in his resurrection he was not raised with just an immortal mind, he was raised with a flesh and bones body.
Me: Christ’s body was transformed into a celestial body. A celestial body is immortal. Before Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they had bodies that could die but wouldn’t age with the passing of time and then die.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Me: “Surely die” implies that you can die, but do not inherently die due to old age. Christ could die and did die. Christ was resurrected with a celestial body that would surely never die.You: If you want to assert that Christ in verse 23 represents the saints also, then you are going to have to tell me that they already have their eternal bodies as well, because Jesus certainly obtained his when he rose from the dead.
Me: Sorry, one does not follow from the other. We die in Christ. Our bodies reserved in heaven in him as seeds in Christ’s body. As we grow in the spirit, we acquire greater and more glories bodies.
1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body…40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
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