Firstborn of/over all creation

[Anthony]

Hi All

Truthcomber

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)               
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).

Notice, this verse tells us that Adam became a living soul, and not that Adam had a soul. A living soul simply means a living being as translated in other versions of the Bible, like the NKJV. Adam became a living soul after God breathed the breath of life into his body. The breath of life is the spirit in man, the human spirit, which Apostle Paul says all human beings possess.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? 

A person becomes a living soul when he is conceived. It is when his human spirit sent from God unites with his embryonic body, the zygote, at conception. The Bible says that an animal is also a living soul. The Hebrew word in Genesis 2:7 for the ‘living soul’ of human beings is nephesh. This same Hebrew word is also used for animals and translated as ‘living creatures’, for example, in Genesis 1:21.

Genesis 1:21 (KJV)
And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

People and animals are all living souls. A person becomes a living soul, a human being, at conception. Likewise, an animal becomes a living soul, a living creature, when its animal spirit unites with its embryonic animal body at conception. So, both a man and an animal are living souls each comprising of a spirit united with a body. It is the human spirit that makes us human beings made in the image of God, giving us our unique individual characteristics, body form and personalities. It is the animal spirit that makes animals unique to their species with their individual characteristics, body forms and behaviours.

When a person dies, his fleshly human body goes back to the dust, but his unconscious human spirit with all of his individual characteristics and personality intact, returns to God who gave it, for safe keeping until the person’s resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. 

The Bible clearly says that the body without the spirit is dead.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.    God gives us His Spirit .    Which has the unconscious human spirit with all of his individual characteristics and personality intact, returns to God who gave it  nothing is ours, it’s all His He gave it He takes away.  We need to overcome the  natural man with all the parts that he as. Even the carnal mind we must die to live spiritual speaking faith without works is dead. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

God bless

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

Jesus is a human being with a human mind that was perfected by God’s Spirit working in his human mind. Jesus we are told was perfected through his suffering. The suffering that was brought to him proved his faith, he was able to overcome the fear of death and submit to God’s will. That trial perfected him, it proved his faith.

God’s Spirit gives our human spirit knowledge, truth, understanding, it moves our character to be of His character one of kindness, patience and love.

Jesus was TAUGHT by God, with God’s Spirit teaching the human mind of Jesus. The word spirit is used interchangeably with that of the human heart and the human mind. Man cannot rely on his own understanding or his own imagination, he must LEARN from God, he must learn that he cannot depend on himself but needs God working in him/teaching him. Man was created as a creature that is INFLUENCED, God’s Spirit influences our spirit. 

We do not have a human spirit and another spirit. Jesus did not have a human spirit and another spirit. Jesus only has a human spirit that God perfected through influencing him with His Spirit. This spirit is our mind, our hearts, and it exists within our bodies, if our body DIES our spirit dies also, but the life that one lived speaks to God, it is held and is accounted as either worthy of being raised receiving the promise of eternal life or one of judgement.

The word soul is also used interchangeably with your mind and heart, and it is also used to represent your LIFE.  Your life ceases when you die, but yet it speaks to God and it speaks to those who REMEMBER your life, who remember your soul and your works, your character, the things you said and did and what you believed.  Upon the resurrection your soul/your life is restored, and it either receives judgement or eternal life, it receives this according to the life that you lived, according to your spirit and the faith it had or did not have.

 

[GeneBalthrop]

TC….I see it as Jodi does brother, i think Anthony does too. When we die we are truly dead, even if that death is considered as a sleep, because of the promise given us, of a future resurection.

Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

[Anthony]

Hi Gene

Yes I do believe like you and Jodi on this subject.  When where dead, where dead till the resurrection. It’s God’s Spirit and it goes back to God. Simple no more no less.

God bless.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You: 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Me: When we are baptized, we are born into a new life. This is the first step to salvation.
Click on the link below. Then click on 313 above “having begotten us again”. This means beget or born into a new life. We do not have to wait until Christ comes back to enter a new life that cannot be extinguished if we continue the path.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/1-3.htm

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Me: what is reserved in heaven is place for us. Also reserved in heaven are our new bodies. They will not corrupt. Spirits or souls do not corrupt. I have gone over this.

5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Me: The last step is receiving our new bodies and robes in heaven where we will be with God and his son.

10 which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Me: Salvation for both those of the OT and NT starts with the resurrection of the Lord.

You:
white robes are not conscious saints receiving literal white robes. You fail to understand what a white robe symbolizes. Their robes were WASHED and MADE white. They were cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ and counted as righteous through their faith being worthy of receiving the crown of life, which occurs at Christ’s second coming…

Me: Don’t assume I do not know white robes symbolize being washed by the blood of Christ. I do believe that. But white robes also mean literally that we will be clothed also. The kingdom of God is not one big nudist colony.

God clothe Adam and Eve after their eyes were open to their nudity. Also, I have never heard of a naked angel. Some scriptures are to be taken literally, others figuratively or metaphorically. Some are to be take both literally and figuratively.

You: Those resting, those sleeping the sleep of DEATH do not literally speak. The DEAD we are told by OT prophets KNOW NOTHING. The DEAD we are told by OT prophets and Jesus himself are referred to as being asleep which is also referred to as resting.

Me you are putting a blanket over too many things that cannot be generalized into one as if they happen all at the same time. The prophets and saints of old died before the death and resurrection of Christ. They were truly dead in that they knew nothing. They were in a perished mode. After Christ’s resurrection into heaven, man’s (Christ’s) mind was now in the spirit of God, and not just God’s spirit was in man. So with the baptism of the spirit, we die with Christ. This is like a second death. Then we resurrect in spirit with him. At Pentecost, all the OT saints and prophets became alive to God in spirit. The holy spirit never dies, it never leaves them. The same holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it is in the saints, who are of this present age. As he, a human (Christ), now never dies, so we never die if we do not quench the spirit. Otherwise, there is a judgment coming for those that do, in which they no longer qualify to rule with Christ at his coming (1 Cor 3:15) but will be saved by in the lake of fire.

You: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Me: I had shown you that the promise of the holy spirit (Christ’s human mind and heart in it) occurred at Pentecost. That is when the dead (humans) in the OT could be made alive in spirit, just like the saints of this present age can be made perfect. The heart and mind is made perfect first, then the body

.
You: Abel doesn’t literally speak, his BLOOD does not literally CRY from the ground to God.

Me: True, this is figurative. I never said otherwise. The body is the last to be regenerated.

You: Abel is not currently conscious literally wearing a white robe,

Me: I never remotely said he is currently wearing a white robe. I said he will be when he receives a spirit body, together with all of the saints at the end of this age.

You: the robe represents being made clean, having your sins removed through the blood of Christ, and having died in the faith that is necessary to receive the crown of life.

Me: It also represents a literally robe.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You quoted me:

“You: 1 Thes 4:16… and the dead in Christ will rise first…

Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 450 above “will rise”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm
The best fitting definition to the whole scheme presented is:
c. to raise up, cause to be born: σπέρμα offspring (Genesis 38:8), Matthew 22:24 (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 33 (32)); τόν Χριστόν, Acts 2:30 Rec. to cause to appear, bring forward”

You: They RISE from being DEAD. They are brought forward from being DEAD. They are caused to appear from being DEAD.

Me:
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall (appear) first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Emphasis and substitution in the parenthesis are mine.

Those alive and remain here on earth will meet those alive in the air to be with Christ. The hearts and minds of those saints are in the air with Christ. Those alive and remain are those that have not yet resurrected spiritually into heaven. They must die to their bodies first

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You: Those that are dead having died in faith in Christ will be made alive first. Truthcomber, THEY CAME to LIFE, not they came down from resting in some conscious state in heaven, not that they were conscious (having life) in some form and then reunited with a body. They did NOT have LIFE, they came to life.

Me: Nope, they will appear first.

New American Standard Bible
Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Me: In fact those who are alive when Christ comes must die first, just like those coming down from heaven.  Then the minds and hearts of them are resurrected into heaven and live in Christ. Then their bodies are reunited with them. This is the same procedure for everyone.

Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME to LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Me: “They came to life” is another bad translation. Click on the link below for the Greek text. Then click on 2198 above “they lived” in the last sentence. There is nothing that rremotely states “CAME to LIFE”.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You: READ Romans 8!

Me:

10 …your body is subject to death because of sin,…
11 … give life to your mortal bodies…
12 …if you live according to the flesh, you will die;
20…the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay
23… the redemption of our bodies.

It is the body that needs to be redeemed at the coming of the Messiah.

You: Recall,
Paul tells us that the mortal body of man is raised in glory and power given eternal life. We do not become some other sort of “being”, some sort of spirit creature,we are human beings given eternal life.
We are spiritual beings in that our faith is solid in following God’s will, our minds have become perfected, and in the fact we are given a human body that is no longer able to be tempted because it has a body that does not fear death and thus is no longer in bondage.

Me: I never once said that we become some sort of other being. This is another misquote and lack of understanding what I said and did not say.  I have repeatedly  said that only our hearts and minds are resurrected fully when we die. Prior to that, we receive the earnest of the spirit when we are baptize with the holy spirit in our spirit minds and hearts. our minds and hearts of the flesh are images of as we are resurrected into life through the baptism of the spirit.

You: The BODY of Jesus did not see decay, Jesus was raised from the dead into LIFE. He was raised in glory, in power, incorruptible, and people were WITNESSES as he appeared to them having received the promised Holy Spirit in a FLESH and BONES BODY.

Me: No, Christ appeared to people as a flesh and blood man after  he was resurrected but before he ascended into heaven and there glorified with a different body.

You: Jesus is not some spirit creature, he is a human being whose body did not DECAY, he is of the DNA of his father DAVID, with flesh and bones having eternal life. He is the firstborn of the dead and those in him will be as he is, a LAST ADAM of the RED EARTH, a perfect MAN, a creation God was longsuffering towards us for, where He has been patient to bring the creation of MAN into perfection. In God’s kingdom we are to live as God intended man to live, and enjoy the earth that God so wondrously designed. We will sing through our vocal cords praising Him, through a sound which He designed in us. Will we dance with our feet and our hips having joy within the heart He made new in us, not an ignorant heart, but one filled with the knowledge of Him.

Me:

1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:… 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Comment: The Messiah and man will have the same form as the physical but have bodies of the spirit (1 Cor 15:46). What I mean by this is not spiritual bodies which cannot be seen, but bodies of the spirit that can manifest themselves in a glorious way.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,
You wrote:
READ, you are GREATLY misinterpreting verse 26 and applying it to the wrong people.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jesus said he is the RESURRECTION, though a person be DEAD he shall LIVE. Those who LIVETH at his coming that believe in him shall NEVER DIE. This fits with the below passage perfectly.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Martha speaks correctly that he shall rise again in the resurrection on the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The people that liveth at his return never die they receive eternal life, and the people that are dead are resurrected and receive eternal life never able to die anymore, the second death hath no power over them.

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Me: NO!!!

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.
Me: Christ mean that Jesus will rise now from his physical death.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day                                                                                                                                         Me: Martha thought that what the Messiah said in vs 23 was that his brother would rise in the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.                                                                                       Me: Christ corrected Martha in that she though he was talking about the last day. He was talking about raising her brother from the dead now. This can be extended to addressing all that are dead then from his resurrection.   How do we know this? Read the next verse.

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?                                                                                                                                                          Me: Thus, those he will raise from the dead are all those that will be resurrection from the dead and never die—after the Messiah had ascended into heaven.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time)  is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Me: This is referring to those disciples who die after his resurrection and glorification. They will never die. Their bodies will, but not their hearts and minds, and that is what counts.

The “dead in Christ” refers to those that have died with him in the baptism of the spirit and have risen spiritually into heaven. Those alive have not had their hearts and minds resurrected yet. They must die first, for it is appointed for all men to do so. That is why they are resurrected into heaven after those that Christ brings with him.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC…..DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT GRAIN PLANTED DOES NOT PRODUCE A EXACT BODY IT CAME FROM. That is not what Paul meant, he was sayi g the old “body” is done away with and a new exact body is reproduced. “For God has given us a body just as he pleases abody that can be planted and reproduced anew. Just as any seed grain does, they never reproduce a body different body they came from as you believe we do.

Please notice clearly, what Paul says, “it” is sown in weakness “it” is raised in power”, my question to you is what is the “it” that is sown in weakness and raised in power refering to there, is it not the body?

TC….your reasoning on this is not scripturelly sound, the subject “it” was never changed, the “it” is the body, and spirits don’t have bodies. They can dwell in bodies and effect their functions as in all creation of living bodies God has made.

All spirits desire bodies to live in, because without a body they go about in arid (dry) places looking for rest. As Jesus said about unclean spirits do. God himself who is spirit seeks to dwell in us, that is why he spoke throughthe mouth of Jesus and sad “destory this temple and in three days I (God) shall raise “it” up, and again, “know you not that your “body” is the temple of the living God.

TC God gave us bodies to live in and he also wants to live in them with him. “That God may be “in” all and “through” all”. In conclusion our bodies are not done away with forever, they are regenerated by the Spirit of God and given imortality. That is why it says “every hair” on you head is numbered”, why, for regeneration again, our DNA, is stored for regeneration again. Much like the DNA of a seed, which if planted it reproduces an exact copy of itself again. It doesn’t change to a different seed but reproduces itself anew.

This should not be hard for you to understand, it has already been done many times it’s called cloning. Thats all you need is ones DNA, TO RESTORE HIS EXACT BODY AGAIN.

Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You wrote:

Jesus received a body that is no longer able to be tempted, it does not fear death and does not have weak flesh drawing it away from God, it is united perfectly with God. God cannot have you enter His kingdom without first calling you into faith and second giving you this body, otherwise you remain able to be tempted. Christ has been made FREE of this in his immortal body. Jesus has made us free from our sins, and God will make us free from no longer being able to be tempted anymore.This is exactly why Paul desired to be delivered from his body of DEATH. He wanted to be freed from temptation. He wanted his body freed so that it could follow the laws of God not being drawn away by mortal flesh.

Me: Yes, but Christ had a body with no death in it when he was born. He had the spirit of God in him as his only spirit and thus could not sin (1 John 3:9). The glorified body of Christ is the body of God.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Me: Christ said if you see him you have seen the father. That’s why Christ is called the Word of God.

Rev 19:12 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You wrote:

Jesus was TAUGHT by God, with God’s Spirit teaching the human mind of Jesus. The word spirit is used interchangeably with that of the human heart and the human mind. Man cannot rely on his own understanding or his own imagination, he must LEARN from God, he must learn that he cannot depend on himself but needs God working in him/teaching him. Man was created as a creature that is INFLUENCED, God’s Spirit influences our spirit.
We do not have a human spirit and another spirit. Jesus did not have a human spirit and another spirit. Jesus only has a human spirit that God perfected through influencing him with His Spirit. This spirit is our mind, our hearts, and it exists within our bodies, if our body DIES our spirit dies also, but the life that one lived speaks to God, it is held and is accounted as either worthy of being raised receiving the promise of eternal life or one of judgement.
The word soul is also used interchangeably with your mind and heart, and it is also used to represent your LIFE. Your life ceases when you die, but yet it speaks to God and it speaks to those who REMEMBER your life, who remember your soul and your works, your character, the things you said and did and what you believed. Upon the resurrection your soul/your life is restored, and it either receives judgement or eternal life, it receives this according to the life that you lived, according to your spirit and the faith it had or did not have.

Me: Soul, spirt, heart and mind have numerous definitions to each one of them.  Many overlap. Only soul when it means spirit can be used interchangeable with each other.  In other instances, it is looney to interchange the wrong meaning of words with each other.  You have to look at the context, not just of the chapter and verses together but sometimes scripture from a “little here and a little there”.  Look words of the Greek or Hebrew were the definitions derive from. 

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

mind would make more sense than be “renewed in the spirit of your spirit” because the spirit flows through the mind.  God’s spirit influences our mind makes more sense than God’s spirit influences our spirit.

You said that we do not have a human spirit and another spirit.  That is true if you do not have the spirit of God in you.  You, as a Christian have two conflicting minds and spirits.  The mind and spirit of the flesh conflict with the mind and spirit of the holy spirit.  The rebirth mind in Christians are not in non Christians.   In the end, we have only one mind and spirit–the holy spirit and the regenerate human spirit mind.  Christ is different in that he only had one mind that didn’t need to be generated and one spirit, the holy spirit from birth.

[Truthcomber]

Hi All,

I am now finish responding to Jodi’s post and will focus on Gene and Anthony’s in that order.  I really do not have much time during the week days but usually devote most of my weekends to post.  I would appreciate if Jodi waits until I am finish with Gene and Anthony first.

Blessings, Lester

[Anthony]

Hi Gene  you know God knows every hair on our heads and i hope I get every single  one back lol

God bless

[Truthcomber]

Hi All,

This post somehow got lost in the shuffle.

Hi Jodi,

You: Because a man sins he DIES, but Jesus wiped our sins clean so that even though man dies he may LIVE AGAIN. Through Jesus COMES THE RESURRECTION from the dead. Through Jesus comes the resurrection unto eternal LIFE. The DEAD have LIFE through the resurrection,

Me: So far so good.

You: there is NO LIFE until then for the dead. Some are raised to eternal life because they died in Our HOPE is NEVER said to be in going to heaven when we die and resting there. Our hope is in our resurrection of which occurs to all faithful believers when Jesus comes to meet us in the air. Just READ 1 Peter 1. A soul that sins DIES, but thanks to Jesus our souls see SALVATION in the RESURRECTION which occurs at Christ’s COMING!! The soul of Jesus was not left in sheol, it was raised to LIFE again, likewise it will be the same for those who died in faith, they will be MADE ALIVE AGAIN. faith, some are raised to judgment because they did not die having faith.

Me: This is where the red sea opens with you on one bank and me on the other.

1 Corinthians 15: 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

 

Me: Most believe that their is a resurrection of the bodies at the time Christ returns.  But some (like Jodi, Eugene, and Anthony) do not believe in a spiritual resurrection.

13 (Bible Lexicon) But if there is no resurrection of the death, not even Christ has been raised.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_corinthians/15-13.htm

Me: notice the order here: No resurrection < Christ has not risen. This means that there is a resurrection now occurring. So it is saying: resurrection < Christ has risen. In other words, there is a resurrection now because Christ has risen. This is the resurrection that was denied by some (hint: some may be here on this forum).

Verse 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-16.htm
Interlinear: If indeed the dead not are risen neither Christ has been raised.
Me: This confirms vs 13. The dead in spirit rise now. The interlinear verson is in present tense.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Me: We are risen with Christ now, after we are baptized in the spirit. We are alive to the holy spirit. We have been risen from body of sin metaphorically.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also…6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Me: The messiah kept that promise at Pentecost. We are bonded spiritually with Christ and his father in heaven after we and all the prophets of old had received of the holy spirit.

You: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Me:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Me: Judgment is now on the household of God, not at the coming of Christ.

1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Me: Instead of being judged at the coming of Christ, we shall be judges with him.

1 Peter 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Me: This occurs now at our baptism of the holy spirit.

4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

Me: I have shown you our new bodies are reserved in Christ in heaven for us and we put them on together with those still alive.

5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

Me: Salvation starts now with our souls and ends with our new bodies. I have discussed this already.

7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

Me: These trails mentioned in vs 5 and 6 lead us into salvation through faith.

9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

Me: We like Christ suffer with him and he suffers with us (Heb 4:14-15).

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

Me: Salvation is complete at Christ’s coming, but grace starts now (Acts 18:27).

[Anthony]

Hi All

Numbers 16:33
They went down alive into Sheol with all they owned. The earth closed over them, and they vanished from the assembly.

Psalm 6:5
For there is no mention of You in death; who can praise You from Sheol?

Psalm 28:1
To you, O LORD, I call; be not deaf to me, O my rock. For if You remain silent, I will be like those descending to the Pit.

Psalm 30:9
“What gain is in the shedding of my blood, in my descent to the Pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it proclaim Your faithfulness?

Psalm 88:11
Can Your loving devotion be proclaimed in the grave, Your faithfulness in Abaddon?

Psalm 115:17
It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

I apologize for any misquotes, what you present I have never seen such an understanding of before, and I might have made assumptions or responded to a post before I had the whole picture. I still have not read through all of your posts and thus probably don’t have the full picture of your understanding. It seems everything you put forth IMO is so twisted I find it difficult to focus on one thing to respond to, I honestly don’t even know where to begin!!

Maybe starting with the word soul is a good place.

Genesis teaches us that all of God’s creatures are living souls anything that God has designed and given life to, which would include human beings.

The phonetic Hebrew word nepesh is translated in the OT hundreds of times as soul, and over a hundred times as life, and some of the time as heart and mind.

Like I said ANIMALS are LIVING SOULS too. Man is different in that he as a living soul that has a higher functioning brain with a heart and a mind that exists in his body, which can be led by God to know Him and to learn from Him, other mammals with brains do not have this ability, God did not give it to them, but He certainly made us capable.  Man is likened to a beast or a serpent when he acts ignorant of God. The life or soul of a man and how he lives that life is reflected by his heart and mind, this is why we see nephesh in regards to humans, sometimes translated in scripture as mind or heart.

Genesis 1: 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Genesis 2: 7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every “living” creature, that was the name thereof.

Adam named all the different kinds of souls that God had made.

Your definition of soul does not fit with scripture TC, it resembles Greek philosophy, pagan belief. 

Scripture says the soul that sins shall die, only the human soul is capable of sin, animals are not. Sin is to miss God’s mark, it is to go the wrong way. God gave man the law to instruct him, to TEACH him right from wrong. God made us living souls capable of learning and KNOWING right from wrong, which occurs according to the power He gave us within our brains. Our brains are part of our bodies, made up of the elements also found in the earth.

We are told in Genesis that we were made of the dust and we shall return to the dust, our brains decay also as they are a powerful organ in our bodies, and if the brain dies and decays the mind is GONE also. We see people whose brains deteriorate even before they die, they have a difficult time concentrating, remembering, etc..

The brain God gave us with it’s power to be able to learn, think, reason, imagine, create, love and hate etc.. certainly decays with the rest of the body. What decays returns to the earth it becomes dust. I do not add to this or twist it, I do not follow Greek philosophy and the vanity of men who create lies and deceit from their own imaginations who were ignorant of God and of His creation and how He made it and what He gave to it. Most Christians follow Greek philosophy because they are ignorant to the fact that the so called “early church fathers” were pagan converts who loved Greek philosophy and used it to create their so called “Christian” doctrine.

God made many types of living souls, human beings are a special soul made in His image, that image He formed FULLY from the dust of the earth, it is made of the same elements of the earth. He made it capable of learning and believing in Him.

Paul and likewise others speaks of us having ONE MIND, they also speak of our problem being IGNORANCE within that mind. We are NOT given a second mind, our minds are taught, they are led away from ignorance, they need to be renewed. There is one mind and it can follow earthly things or it can follow heavenly things.

Romans 12: 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4: 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Hebrews 8: 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Acts 17: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 20: 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

1 Peter 1: 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1 Peter 2: 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Psalms 73: 22 I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you.

Isaiah 44: 9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.

Isaiah 45: 20 “Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.

1 Corinthians 15: 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi….another good post sis.

Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

[Anthony]

Hi All

Hell and the Grave

1. “For You will not leave my SOUL IN SHEOL (Hell in the Authorised Version), nor will You allow Your Holy One to see CORRUPTION.” Psalm 16:10“If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my BED IN HELL behold, You are there.” Psalm 139:8

   ‘Hell’ is not a translation

   ‘Hell’ is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like ‘sheol’, simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. The translators are still very shy though, and in many instances have left the word ‘sheol’ untranslated in modern Bible versions. This is because they can see that this word obviously means ‘the grave’ and not the traditional meaning. Rather than admit this though, and the folly of using the inserted word ‘hell’ in the past, they have just left the Hebrew word ‘sheol’ untranslated many times, and left the readers to make up their own minds.

   Comparing old and new translations

   The following are two interesting examples of how translating has changed by comparing the King James Version (A.V.)and the New King James Version (N.K.J.V.) of Jonah 2:2, and Isaiah 4:14:Jonah 2:2  A.V. – “out of the belly of HELL cried I”  N.K.J.V. – “out of the belly of SHEOL I cried”Isaiah 4:14  A.V. – “Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself”  N.K.J.V. – “Therefore SHEOL has enlarged itself”
   You will notice the same situation with Psalm 16:10 quoted as a key verse above.

   ‘Gehenna’ the rubbish tip

   ‘Gehenna’ or ‘The valley of the son of Hinnom’ which is what the Greek word means, was the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus which was also used to burn the bodies of criminals who had suffered capital punishment. Most of the occurrences of the word ‘hell’ in the New Testament refer to this ‘place of burning’ outside of Jerusalem.

   ‘Hades’ the unseen

   The word Hades comes from two words: ‘A’, which is ‘Alpha’, the first letter of the Greek alphabet and is a negative letter which simply means ‘without’. The equivalent in English would be the word ‘un’. The other word is ‘eido’ which means ‘to see’. So ‘Hades’ simply means, ‘unseen’. Is the ‘hades’ of the Bible the same place as that described in Greek Mythology? Websters Dictionary describes Hades as, “the grim god of the lower world dwelling in the abode of the dead conceived as either a dark and gloomy subterranean realm or a remote island beyond the western sea.”

   Consistent Bible teaching

   If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to ‘sheol’ (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament. The fact that the New Testament was written in Greek does not mean that we have to use Greek mythology to interpret Scripture. Today we use words like “lunatic”, but this does not mean that we accept that somebody’s mental health depends on the phases of the Moon.

   Extra info and Bible references

   ‘Hell’ is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is ‘the grave’ or ‘the pit’ in the Old Testament. In the New Testament this word is used with reference to the burning ‘rubbish tip’ that was outside of Jerusalem, known as ‘the valley of the son of Hinnom’ or ‘gehenna’.’sheol’ in the Hebrew is interpolated ‘hell’ or translated ‘grave’ or ‘pit’ in the Old Testament. Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 30:3; Numbers 16:30,33’hades’ in the Greek is translated ‘grave’ or interpolated ‘hell’ in the New Testament. 1Corinthians 15:55, Matthew11:21, 16:18’gehenna’ in the Greek is interpolated ‘hell’ in the New Testament. Matthew 5:22, 23:15; Luke 12:5 God bless

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You:

 

One: Genesis teaches us that all of God’s creatures are living souls anything that God has designed and given life to, which would include human beings.
The phonetic Hebrew word nephesh is translated in the OT hundreds of times as soul, and over a hundred times as life, and some of the time as heart and mind.

Two: You: Your definition of soul does not fit with scripture TC, it resembles Greek philosophy, pagan belief.
Scripture says the soul that sins shall die, only the human soul is capable of sin, animals are not. Sin is to miss God’s mark, it is to go the wrong way. God gave man the law to instruct him, to TEACH him right from wrong. God made us living souls capable of learning and KNOWING right from wrong, which occurs according to the power He gave us within our brains. Our brains are part of our bodies, made up of the elements also found in the earth.

Me: An entity’s  total self is but one definition of nephesh. His total self, mind, heart, and spirit, cease to exist at death, not just his body.  His spirit does not go back to God.  You saying that his spirit goes back to God is of Greek philosophy and which mostly all of Christianity teaches, including you. Soul, one of it’s definition closes resembles the definition of nephesh.

You: We are told in Genesis that we were made of the dust and we shall return to the dust, our brains decay also as they are a powerful organ in our bodies, and if the brain dies and decays the mind is GONE also. We see people whose brains deteriorate even before they die, they have a difficult time concentrating, remembering, etc..
The brain God gave us with it’s power to be able to learn, think, reason, imagine, create, love and hate etc.. certainly decays with the rest of the body. What decays returns to the earth it becomes dust. I do not add to this or twist it, I do not follow Greek philosophy and the vanity of men who create lies and deceit from their own imaginations who were ignorant of God and of His creation and how He made it and what He gave to it. Most Christians follow Greek philosophy because they are ignorant to the fact that the so called “early church fathers” were pagan converts who loved Greek philosophy and used it to create their so called “Christian” doctrine.
God made many types of living souls, human beings are a special soul made in His image, that image He formed FULLY from the dust of the earth, it is made of the same elements of the earth. He made it capable of learning and believing in Him.

Me: No, my understanding of soul does not boil down to Greek philosophy.  You do not understand the uses of the alternative meanings of soul.  Otherwise, you are mostly right above when using the definition that applies to the whole creature.  You are wrong about the animals.  They are and will be capable of learning and then both learning and worshiping God as you will soon see.

Genesis teaches that all of God’s creatures are living nepheshs, not living souls.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV
soul, life, person, mind, heart, creature, body, man, appetite, self.

Me: Soul is one definition of nephesh.

All of the definitions here are understood in light of their English meanings.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soul
definition of soul:
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
3 : a person’s total self
4 a : an active or essential part
b : leader
5 fervor

Me: soul is one definition of nephesh. So, you see that the definition of soul encompasses some of the other definitions of nephesh. The Greek word phyche basically means the same. I believe that the animating or spiritual is one definition of soul. It is synonymous with spirit. Below is a two good websites on this.

Man’s spirit = his soul
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-2.htm
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm

You: Like I said ANIMALS are LIVING SOULS too., God did not give it to them, but He certainly made us capable. Man is likened to a beast or a serpent when he acts ignorant of God. The life or soul of a man and how he lives that life is reflected by his heart and mind, this is why we see nephesh in regards to humans, sometimes translated in scripture as mind or heart.

Me: yes, men are beasts like animals are without the spirit of God to help him with his understanding. Their human spirit goes downward, which is a symbolically the grave or death.

Eccl 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Me: The spirit of man, like that of the beast goes downward into the earth. It dies. It doesn’t go back to God. The spirit in vs 21 that goes back to God is the holy spirit. The spirit of the converted that lives forever is the holy spirit. It is the only spirit in the end (Eph 4:4). Yours is of Greek philosophy . It is what most of the churches teach.
To say that the human spirit or soul is liken to the holy spirit and is part of it is Greek philosophy. You embrace Greek philosophy, not me. I will show you two links below where soul = spirit.  It is one definition of nephesh.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You:

One: Genesis teaches us that all of God’s creatures are living souls anything that God has designed and given life to, which would include human beings.
The phonetic Hebrew word nepesh is translated in the OT hundreds of times as soul, and over a hundred times as life, and some of the time as heart and mind.

Two: Your definition of soul does not fit with scripture TC, it resembles Greek philosophy, pagan belief.

Me: No, I am very unorthodox.

You: 
Scripture says the soul that sins shall die, only the human soul is capable of sin, animals are not. Sin is to miss God’s mark, it is to go the wrong way. God gave man the law to instruct him, to TEACH him right from wrong. God made us living souls capable of learning and KNOWING right from wrong, which occurs according to the power He gave us within our brains. Our brains are part of our bodies, made up of the elements also found in the earth.

Me: A person’s total self is but one definition of nephesh. His total self, mind, heart, and spirit, cease to exist, not just his body. You’re  saying that his spirit goes back to God is of Greek philosophy and which mostly all of Christianity teaches, including you. Yes, animals do not sin.   Man’s sin caused everyone to die, both man and beast.  All is of one breath and spirit.  We are all connected.

You: We are told in Genesis that we were made of the dust and we shall return to the dust, our brains decay also as they are a powerful organ in our bodies, and if the brain dies and decays the mind is GONE also. We see people whose brains deteriorate even before they die, they have a difficult time concentrating, remembering, etc..
The brain God gave us with it’s power to be able to learn, think, reason, imagine, create, love and hate etc.. certainly decays with the rest of the body. What decays returns to the earth it becomes dust. I do not add to this or twist it, I do not follow Greek philosophy and the vanity of men who create lies and deceit from their own imaginations who were ignorant of God and of His creation and how He made it and what He gave to it. Most Christians follow Greek philosophy because they are ignorant to the fact that the so called “early church fathers” were pagan converts who loved Greek philosophy and used it to create their so called “Christian” doctrine.
God made many types of living souls, human beings are a special soul made in His image, that image He formed FULLY from the dust of the earth, it is made of the same elements of the earth. He made it capable of learning and believing in Him.

Me: The animals are and will be capable of learning and worshiping God as you will soon see.

Man’s spirit = his soul
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-2.htm
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm

You: Like I said ANIMALS are LIVING SOULS too., God did not give it to them, but He certainly made us capable. Man is likened to a beast or a serpent when he acts ignorant of God. The life or soul of a man and how he lives that life is reflected by his heart and mind, this is why we see nephesh in regards to humans, sometimes translated in scripture as mind or heart.

Me: yes, men are beasts like animals are without the spirit of God to help him with his understanding. Their human spirit goes downward, which is a symbolically the grave or death. Animals have hearts and minds also as you will see.

Eccl 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Me: The spirit (one definition of soul) of man, like that of the beast goes downward into the earth. It dies. It doesn’t go back to God. The spirit in vs 21 that goes back to God is the holy spirit. The spirit of the converted that lives forever is the holy spirit. It is the only spirit in the end (Eph 4:4). Yours is of Greek philosophy, not mine .
To say that the human spirit and soul is liken to the holy spirit and is part of it is Greek philosophy. You embrace Greek philosophy, not me.

[Author]

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