Firstborn of/over all creation

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi:

You:
Hebrews 11 tells us the saints have NOT yet received the promise. David is sleeping, he is RESTING, he is DEAD, and when the SON OF MAN of the seed of David of flesh and bones, comes in the clouds David is RAISED from the GRAVE being changed into incorruptible flesh, and meeting his son in the air. They come down to earth with others to

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
The flesh of Jesus did not see corruption, instead that flesh saw eternal life by being born of the water of life. 

Me:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/11-13.htm

Everyone listed here in Heb 11 is of the old testament before Christ was resurrected and glorified. This includes David in Acts 13:36, Also click on the link above. Then click on 1860 above promises. It means promise, not promises. These OT saints have not received the promise. It was made to each one of them, so “promises”. The same word is used in Heb 11:39.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Me: So what is the promise?
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David (did) not ascended into the heavens:…

Comment: The promise of the holy spirit occurred from Pentecost, not from the resurrection of the body at the second coming of Christ. David had not received of the promise before this. But he did at Pentecost where he was baptized with the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it. yes he was baptized in the grave (1 Peter 3:16)

Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You wrote:
1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
As Jesus died and was MADE ALIVE AGAIN, having his spirit quickened, having his body not see corruption but raised in glory and power, we believe ours is the same fate, that when Jesus returns to earth he brings with them the dead raised to life again.

 

Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 2837 above “having fallen asleep”
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
One of the definitions is under Thayer’s Greek Lexicon is:
metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Click on the link below:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/6-11.htm
Then click 373 above “they will rest”
Definition
to give rest, give intermission from labor, by impl. refresh
NASB Translation
give…rest (1), refresh (1), refreshed (3), rest (3), resting (2), rests (1), take your ease (1).

Me: There is no death or sleep here. So the definition of fallen asleep has to be “metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet” or there would be inconsistency between 1 Thes 4:14 and Rev 6:11. So to “rest” or “fallen asleep”in Christ is not the same as sleep before Christ’s resurrection for those of his followers.

For those non believers, the meaning of sleep in the OT is the same as sleep in the NT from them.

You: As Jesus died and was MADE ALIVE AGAIN, having his spirit quickened, having his body not see corruption but raised in glory and power, we believe ours is the same fate, that when Jesus returns to earth he brings with them the dead raised to life again.

Me: The difference is we see corruption of our bodies. The holy spirit in our spirit mind nor the mind of the holy spirit sees corruption. The old body, spirit, and mind does.

You: We have prophets and Jesus himself who refer to DEATH as SLEEP, and sleep is known as to REST.

Me:
Yes, sleep is referred to as death in the OT, but not in the NT for the saints who rest in Christ.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Me: Those that have rested in Christ are with Christ in heaven. They are not resting with Christ are resting or dead in the grave. Notice, Christ brings them with him from heaven.

You: 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. This would clearly be the SAINTS, those who have not yet received the promise, who will be made ALIVE again and receive eternal life at Christ’s coming.

Me: The promise was given from Pentecost as I have plainly shown you. Those that died in the body have their minds in heave with the heart of Christ and the spirit of God in them.

You: 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Me: I have shown you, to be consistent, “rise” in vs 16 can and should be rendered as “appear”. Thus those alive in their physical bodies will not have spirit bodies before those minds in heaven appear with  their new bodies.

You: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Christ is the firstfruits, the firstfruits of God Spirit, the many gifts of God’s Spirit of which He gives to Christ first. At Christ’s coming those that are Christ’s, the saints dead or alive known as God’s elect, likewise receive the fruits of the Spirit, the gifts of God’s Spirit. The dead saints are raised and receive the promise before those in Christ who are still alive.

Me: Every man in his own order is the theme here. “firstfruits” in “Christ the firstfruits is plural. It refers to Christ and his church as one. This is the first order. The rest of mankind is saved afterwards, this is the next order.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi:

You:
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Jesus ceased to exist, in the grave you have no knowledge, no plans, you cannot praise God, Jesus was said to be LOST. Then he was ALIVE again and found!!

Me: Christ was never lost. The passage above is referring to the prodigal son that returned to God after he led a sinful life.

Matt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Me: Christ wasn’t lost. He came to save those that were.

You:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
They are not ALIVE in any form, they are dead, just as Jesus was not alive in any manner until he was raised from being dead.
Me: I have shown you the alternative definition for “rise” in vs 16 in one of my previous post. It is “to appear”. I have also shown you the “dead’ in Christ can mean our dead bodies in Christ.  Also in that post, “dead in Christ ” can refer to the body that is dead.

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me: So those who are completely dead in Christ at their deaths have their reward secured. They have died completely to their souls and fleshly minds. they have died to their bodies.  They have endured unto the end.

Thus,
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ (those that have completely died to self) will appear first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You wrote:

Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is MY HELPER, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

You really want to say that verse 5 is telling us that we do not really die? That when we die we stay consciously aware? Keeping verse 4 in the CONTEXT of the passage what is being said is that Christ does not forsake us during our persecution, during our adversity, we shall not fear what men shall do unto us, he will not forsake us or leave us in times of adversity

Me: Adversity has to include those that would kill us. You have to not always look at the context in the chapter, but the context in light of other scriptures in the bible.

Young’s Literal Translation
Matt 10:28 ‘And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Me: The lake of fire is God who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29) for those incorrigible, but he will accomplish his goal. He is able to kill the soul and body. In the end, there is only the holy spirit and a body of the spirit for everyone. There will be no soul nor body of the flesh.

1 Peter 1:7 hat the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Me: This is much better than going through the severe trail of the lake of fire. Yes, God will be with us through our trails, and he will be with us after our hearts and minds are resurrected into heaven. We will never die if we continually trust in the Lord until our physical bodies die. He will never leave us means he will never leave us during our trials and after.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You:
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

You: When Stephen faced persecution and being stoned to death he professed his faith to the end having Christ’s strength in him, and he fell asleep, he died. He told Jesus to receive his spirit, not saying such as if he believed he was going to rest in a conscious state separated from his body, he was telling Jesus to receive his life, to hold it, to know that it was worthy to obtain a resurrection.

Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 1473 above “of me”.

Definition: have (2), mine (10), mine* (1), myself (11), number (1), ours (8), ourselves (4), part (2), say (1).
The “spirit of me” can be the holy spirit. For there is only one spirit (Eph 4:4). “of me” could also be translated “of us” which is even a stronger case of the spirit being the holy spirit.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/7-59.htm

You: He died knowing that Jesus would hold his life for him, a life considered as being righteous, counted as a son of God and thus being a child of the resurrection.

Me:

Gal 5:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Me: The life that Stephen lived was the life that Paul lived which was the life of Christ with the holy spirit.  Stephen gave up the holy spirit when he died. His soul died that was the life of his body.

You:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Me: True: but being called the children of God happens when we receive the spirit of God when we are baptized of the holy spirit and are resurrected with Christ to a new life in our spirit minds. . We are fully the children of God when we receive new bodies like Christ’s body. Then we can see him (his body) and perceive (see) him (his mind and heart of the holy spirit.

New American Standard Bible

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You wrote:
In my opinion from what I read from scripture I believe you are denying scripture.
You said, “Me: They are put to death as far as we can see their bodies.

You: 
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
If you read all of Paul’s words from other passages you can clearly identify that which he means in verse 5:8. Read Romans 6 and 7! When we have our minds set on the body and serving it we sin and thus are separated from God, when we are spiritually minded we are present with the Lord.
If you are confident in the flesh feeling right at home in your mortal body and obey it in it’s lusts your are not at home with the Lord.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
Paul prefers it when he is able to deny his weak mortal flesh, as he is at home with the Lord.Paul was eager to be rescued from a body of death, and receive a body of immortality. Because that which he wanted to do was difficult because of his weak flesh.

Me: You are interpreting 2 Cor 5:6-8 from a different perspective than what we are trying to establish here, that of being with the Lord at our deaths. While what you say may be true, that is not the perspective we are aiming at.

Let’s look at the entire context.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Me: First of all, verse 9 says whether we present or absent from the body, we are accepted of him. So this is speaking of our hearts and minds of the spirit in our present body or with the Lord. Then in verse 1, it speaks of a house eternal in the heavens.
So in the context of 1-9, we are addressing whether our minds and hearts are here in our present bodies or in heaven when we die. The house in heaven in verse 1 is the body we come down with when Christ returns.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

You wrote:

Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Paul’s hope was in the resurrection, to be given a body that is not subject to death.

Me: It starts before that at the resurrection of man’s mind with the spirit of God in it.

You: READ 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the resurrection, not of receiving anything at death.

Me:

1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

John 6:63 the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Comment: So the seed is the word, and the word is spirit. And God gives every spirit a body. Now we know that there is only one spirit in the end, the holy spirit. And the spirit in our spirit minds are of the holy spirit. Our spirit minds receive seeds of the holy spirit that grow to different glories (1 Cor 15:41). Therefore they receive spirit bodies of different glories afterwards at the return of Christ.

:for seed in 1 Cor 15:38 it is:
children (7), conceive* (1), descendant (4), descendants (16), posterity (1), seed (10), seeds (4).

2 Timothy 2:18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Me: This has to be the  resurrection of the body at the time of Christ’s return that has not happened yet.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi and All,

One more thing.

New American Standard Bible
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Me: Therefore Christ has all the talents and gifts given to members of his body in the highest degree.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Me: Therefore, before those who have died in Christ receive their own bodies, their hearts and minds are of the body of Christ in heaven. Thus, they do have a body, that of Christ’s with all their talents intact, because Christ has all those talents to a superior degree.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;

Me: Our bodies are reserves as seeds in the body of Christ in heaven.

[Truthcomber]

Hi All,

Explanation of the last sentence above: 

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed): 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

John 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC….No one has risen from the grave but Jesus, and scripture say “it is appointed unto man to die then after that the Judgement”. There is truly a “frist resurection” and a second resurection. Your saying that the saints didn’t die , after pentocost is wrong, all of them died and are waiting the resurection.

The scripture where Jesus said they that are alive and believe on me shall (never die), should be rendered “never parish”, for “all” have sinned and therefore “all” die. What God the Father says happens, his words don’t change for anyone.

Jesus removed our “eternal” death sentence, not our death sentence, “the wages of sin is death, all have sinned all die. Jesus did not remove death, his sacfifice removed the “eternal” death sentence, so we would not “parish” , it’s one thing to die, it’s quite another to “parish”.

No one has risen from the dead, except Jesus, the rest who have died are still dead, resting in their graves waiting for the resurection to take place, even the Saints, who are the first fruits of then that sleep will come to life again at the first resurection, the rest wait for the second resurection, at the great white throne judgement when the books are opened and they are judged according to their works.

There are only two general resurections in the bible. The first and the last. It’s best to be in the first.

Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

[Truthcomber]

Hi Gene:

I have presented my case in the preceding post on this and previous pages. I do not think I can add much more. As evident by the scriptures, Christ lives, and so do we, whether in body or out of body.

2 Cor 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present (1736) with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present (1736) or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

Me: You probably think that the scripture I just presented, where we are absent from the body and with the Lord pertains to the first resurrection.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_corinthians/5-8.htm

Verse 8 present (1736)
ενδημησαι verb – aorist active middle or passive deponent
endemeo en-day-meh’-o: to be in one’s own country, i.e. home (figuratively) — be at home (present).

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_corinthians/5-9.htm

Verse 9 (1736)
ενδημουντες verb – present active participle – nominative plural masculine
endemeo en-day-meh’-o: to be in one’s own country, i.e. home (figuratively) — be at home (present).

Me: We are present with the Lord in mind and spirit when we are alive or when we die because the holy spirit never leaves us with Christ in it. This was possible only after Pentecost when believers could receive the promise of the spirit, which was Christ (a human) in the spirit of God. So, we as humans can be there too spiritually always. Our bodies catch up with us at the first resurrection. Christ was not bodily with his father after he was resurrected from the grave and alive in the flesh.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 Cor 15:45 New American Standard Bible
So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 

Me: The last Adam became a life giving spirit because his mind and heart was in the holy spirit of God along with God Almighty’s heart and mind.

After  his ascension into heaven,  he could reveal himself as a spirit body in the likeness of his physical body.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Me: We  are resurrected spiritually with Christ with the earnest of the spirit,  when we are baptized with the spirit.  We are resurrected in spirit but with a physical body like he had.  We receive a spiritual body like he has just before he returns. All the saints receive their spiritual bodies at the same time.  But prior to that, we all receive the holy spirit with Christ in it after Pentecost at different times.  This includes the OT  saints and prophets also.   apparently,  God prefers all the saints be glorified at the same time.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Jodi]

Hi Truthcomber,

Gene said it correctly,

Because a man sins he DIES, but Jesus wiped our sins clean so that even though man dies he may LIVE AGAIN. Through Jesus COMES THE RESURRECTION from the dead. Through Jesus comes the resurrection unto eternal LIFE. The DEAD have LIFE through the resurrection, there is NO LIFE until then for the dead. Some are raised to eternal life because they died in faith, some are raised to judgment because they did not die having faith.

Our HOPE is NEVER said to be in going to heaven when we die and resting there. Our hope is in our resurrection of which occurs to all faithful believers when Jesus comes to meet us in the air. Just READ 1 Peter 1. A soul that sins DIES, but thanks to Jesus our souls see SALVATION in the RESURRECTION which occurs at Christ’s COMING!! The soul of Jesus was not left in sheol, it was raised to LIFE again, likewise it will be the same for those who died in faith, they will be MADE ALIVE AGAIN. 

Hebrews 9: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Peter 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

Truthcomber,

White robes are not conscious saints receiving literal white robes. You fail to understand what a white robe symbolizes. Their robes were WASHED and MADE white. They were cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ and counted as righteous through their faith being worthy of receiving the crown of life, which occurs at Christ’s second coming. 

Leviticus 13: 13 Then the priest shall consider: and, behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: it is all turned white: he is clean.

Proverbs 30: 12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

1 Corinthians 6: 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Revelation 1: 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelations 19: 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The below passage speaks of those arrayed in white robes are they that came out of the great tribulation and they are led by Christ unto the living fountains of waters, where they will not hunger nor thirst anymore and their tears will be wiped away.

Revelations 7: 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Chapter 6 leads up to chapter 7.

Chapter 6, men and woman were slain, put to death for professing their faith, doing so they are counted as righteous and their robes were washed and made clean. But they must rest until their brethren should be killed as they were is fulfilled. Chapter 7 we see the fulfillment and after the great tribulation they are all to receive the promise, and are placed before the throne of God to serve him day and night having been led to the living fountains of water receiving eternal life.

Revelation 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Those resting, those sleeping the sleep of DEATH do not literally speak. The DEAD we are told by OT prophets KNOW NOTHING. The DEAD we are told by OT prophets and Jesus himself are referred to as being asleep which is also referred to as resting.

Genesis 4: 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Abel doesn’t literally speak, his BLOOD does not literally CRY from the ground to God. Abel is not currently conscious literally wearing a white robe, the robe represents being made clean, having your sins removed through the blood of Christ, and having died in the faith that is necessary to receive the crown of life.

Abel and all dead saints are NOT ALIVE, they are resting/sleeping until the resurrection of the elect. Their own shed blood, their SOULS that were SLAIN are a TESTIMONY which SPEAKS to us.

Their lives of which ended from persecution because they professed their faith, SPEAK to us as an example of righteousness, that they are indeed worthy of receiving the resurrection to eternal life and that their blood God will avenge. 

“Abel is dead but he speaketh”, NOT LITERALLY. The saints are dead but they do not speak literally either, the life that they lived of faith speaks to us, they are a testimony of righteousness, and that God will avenge their innocent blood. We have an example of those that were slain and what they shall receive, and we have an example of those in the future that will follow in their steps. We know that some will die in the name of the LORD, and we know that some will not die, but all will receive the promise, the dead receive it first, and shortly after those who are still alive.  They all will meet the Lord in the air and become a great army coming down from heaven to earth to execute judgement.

The imagery that God gave Cain of his brother’s blood crying out to God, is the same that John received in his vision in Revelation 6. We are not to believe that they are literally crying that would contradict scripture and make passages into lies. In the life that they lived, though they died by unjust persecution, they speak to us and God’s word is that He will give them the crown of life and avenge their blood.

An understanding of a passage is not true when it creates contradiction with other passages!

Revelation 2: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The promise God gave us is eternal life which does not occur for each person right after they die, but occurs for everyone at the same time, at Christ’s second coming.

James 1: 12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Titus 1: 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

I John 2: 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Luke 20: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 5: 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12: 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11: 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11: 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Luke 15: 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

When he comes, NOT when he and the saints come! When HE COMES then those who belong to him are awakened and given immortality for an eternity. They are not immortal YET, they are DEAD. They rise from being dead unto having LIFE, to meet Christ in the air, and they become a great army from heaven that comes down to earth to execute judgment.

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Truthcomber you cannot produce truth when you take passages and interpret them in a manner that creates absolute scriptural contradiction.

[GeneBalthrop]

TC….THE TERM CHRISTO’S, is not the man Jesus, it is the ANOINTING SPIRIT OF GOD, when we say Jesus Christ, we are not saying Jesus is the CHRISTO’S we are saying Jesus is the anointed one of God, the christo’s is God the Father that was “in” The man Jesus, the spirit “of” christ is the anoi b ting Spirit of God, not Jesus.

The same applies to us, we also who have recieved the anointing spirit of God are also christo’s or anointed ones of God the Father., the CHRISTO’S BEING THE COMMON DEMOMINATOR, which makes us “in” the anointing that Jesus is “in” with God the Father, so we are all sritually connected with the Father, Jesus, and each other. ONE GOD “IN” ALL AND THROUGH ALL. That is the way i understand it.

I do not believe JESUS is himself the spirit, he was anointed with, i believe that was how the Father was “in” him and exactly how the Father is also “in” us. None of that makes Jesus or us the CHRISTO’S ourselves not now or ever will be us, but simply God the Father working in us and through us all.

I also believe there are no such things as a spirit (body) there is a “spritual” body, of believers that have a flesh and bone body, and when the die, they are spiritually regenerated at the resrection.

Just as Ezekiel described at the valley of dead bones. God is a spirit who generates new physical bodies and places the spirit of life in them, and they become a living soul again at the resurection.

I believe The saint’s do die, and are considered as asleep untill the time of the resurection, “that will witness the redemption of their “bodies”. When we die our bodies see coruption and go back to dust from which it came, but GOD RECREATES US ANOTHER BODY OF FLESH AND BONE AS JESUS NOW HAS.

Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene

[Jodi]

Truthcomber posted,

“You: 1 Thes 4:16… and the dead in Christ will rise first…

Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 450 above “will rise”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm
The best fitting definition to the whole scheme presented is:
c. to raise up, cause to be born: σπέρμα offspring (Genesis 38:8), Matthew 22:24 (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 33 (32)); τόν Χριστόν, Acts 2:30 Rec. to cause to appear, bring forward”

They RISE from being DEAD. They are brought forward from being DEAD. They are caused to appear from being DEAD.

Those that are dead having died in faith in Christ will be made alive first.

Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME to LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Truthcomber, THEY CAME to LIFE, not they came down from resting in some conscious state in heaven, not that they were conscious (having life) in some form and then reunited with a body. They did NOT have LIFE, they came to life. 

[Jodi]

Hi Truthcomber,

READ Romans 8!

Our bodies are subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives LIFE because of righteousness. Our hope is in that God will give LIFE to our mortal bodies making them immortal. Paul said they that have the firstfruits of the Spirit groan waiting for the redemption of their bodies. This redemption comes as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 and in Thessalonians 4 at Christ’s second coming it occurs first to the dead and second to those still alive at his coming.  

10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 Recall,

Paul tells us that the mortal body of man is raised in glory and power given eternal life. We do not become some other sort of “being”, some sort of spirit creature,we are human beings given eternal life.

We are spiritual beings in that our faith is solid in following God’s will, our minds have become perfected, and in the fact we are given a human body that is no longer able to be tempted because it has a body that does not fear death and thus is no longer in bondage.

Recall,

Acts 2:0 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

The BODY of Jesus did not see decay, Jesus was raised from the dead into LIFE. He was raised in glory, in power, incorruptible, and people were WITNESSES as he appeared to them having received the promised Holy Spirit in a FLESH and BONES BODY.

Jesus is not some spirit creature, he is a human being whose body did not DECAY, he is of the DNA of his father DAVID, with flesh and bones having eternal life. He is the firstborn of the dead and those in him will be as he is, a LAST ADAM of the RED EARTH, a perfect MAN, a creation God was longsuffering towards us for, where He has been patient to bring the creation of MAN into perfection. In God’s kingdom we are to live as God intended man to live, and enjoy the earth that God so wondrously designed. We will sing through our vocal cords praising Him, through a sound which He designed in us.  Will we dance with our feet and our hips having joy within the heart He made new in us, not an ignorant heart, but one filled with the knowledge of Him.

Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The organic molecules that make up the genetic code of Jesus, that our intelligent, creative, Almighty God designed, testify that Jesus, to this very day, is the OFFSPRING of David.

 

 

 

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

READ, you are GREATLY misinterpreting verse 26 and applying it to the wrong people.

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus said he is the RESURRECTION, though a person be DEAD he shall LIVE. Those who LIVETH at his coming that believe in him shall NEVER DIE. This fits with the below passage perfectly.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Martha speaks correctly that he shall rise again in the resurrection on the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The people that liveth at his return never die they receive eternal life, and the people that are dead are resurrected and receive eternal life never able to die anymore, the second death hath no power over them. 

 

 

[Anthony]

Hi All

Truthcomber you speak though man has two minds which you get from looking up spirit. So you make out as man has three parts body spirit and soul. Which the bible doesn’t speak of. It speaks of two. Bear with here. So is the spirit  a mind or is the mind a spirit.

Just some scriptures about death and the grave.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? 

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. 

Isaiah 38:18 
For Sheol (the grave) cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth. 

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence. 

Bear with me I’m using my phone so it takes time. K

[Anthony]

Hi All

Truthcomber

I believe all of man dies and go to the grave till the resurrection.              You said……

Those born again have two minds, one of the spirit and one of the flesh.

 

[Anthony]

Hi All

Truthcomber

Apostle Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 that a believer’s whole spirit, soul and body are preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul (psychē), and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This scripture is misused and misunderstood by many Christians to preach that man is a tri-partite being composed of three different parts, which are spirit, soul and body. Based on this misconception, an unbiblical theology of spirit, soul and body has been developed and believed by many Christians.

Apostle Paul was well versed in the Word of God, which categorically teaches that man is a living soul consisting of spirit and body only. So, we can be sure that Apostle Paul did not preach that man is a tri-partite being, contrary to the Word of God.

In the verse above, Paul was writing to a group of believers in Thessalonica. By referring to the ‘whole spirit, soul and body’, Paul was simply emphasising the fact that God will preserve these believers as blameless (righteous) in all aspects of their life. Please note that the Greek word for ‘soul’ is psychē, which means life. This confirms that Paul was emphasising the preservation of their life in Christ, which believers have now by faith. All believers will be counted as blameless (righteous) to rise in their new immortal glorified bodies at Christ’s Second Coming.

If you have to think  that man’s mind go back where it came, to God.  Does part of us stay alive,our mind or is it God’s mind that goes back to Him , to me shouldn’t you be using Spirit of God  not mind I wouldn’t think that mind is in context with the subject.

[Jodi]

TC,

Jesus received the Spirit without measure upon his baptism at the river and the Spirit gave him the power to perform miracles and heal, it made him full of the knowledge of the Lord, where he could speak God’s words, he could read the hearts and minds of the people. That Spirit gave him strength where he was able to follow God’s will unto his death. 

He was lost and then found, by God making him ALIVE again. He rose from death unto life being given the water of life and the gifts of God’s Spirit.

Those who died in him will too rise and receive what God gave Jesus.

Today people are baptized confessing their sins and their faith, then they are dipped in water and THINK they have the Holy Spirit. Christ’s apostles were baptized and on Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and gave them different gifts of the Spirit. They were not made immortals, they did not receive eternal life, they received the promise that they would receive eternal life that comes at Christ’s second coming. Their baptism in water represented a future anointing of eternal life when they are given the true water of life.  They were cleansed through the blood of Jesus and they will be given a body unable to be tempted and thus will remain clean.

21 And he said unto her,What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. 22 But Jesus answered and said,Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them,Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus spoke, “that I SHALL DRINK of“. The baptism of eternal life occurs upon being resurrected. 

You must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter God’s Kingdom. Jesus entered God’s Kingdom receiving eternal life being raised from the dead being born of the water of life and the Spirit. He drank of the cup of life and we shall drink of that same cup as he did.

You do not enter the kingdom by going through a ritual of baptism, whether it is done in a pool, a hot tub, a river, a lake. You are counted worthy of the promise by God knowing your heart and your faith therein whether you go through a ritual or NOT, you enter God’s kingdom through Him baptizing you with the same cup that Christ received upon his rising from the dead. 

We are to recognize that your sins are forgiven through the blood of Jesus and through that, even though you may die, you are able to obtain a resurrection, being baptized with the true water of life, drinking of the cup Christ drank of upon his resurrection.

Jesus received a body that is no longer able to be tempted, it does not fear death and does not have weak flesh drawing it away from God, it is united perfectly with God.  God cannot have you enter His kingdom without first calling you into faith and second giving you this body, otherwise you remain able to be tempted. Christ has been made FREE of this in his immortal body. Jesus has made us free from our sins, and God will make us free from no longer being able to be tempted anymore.This is exactly why Paul desired to be delivered from his body of DEATH. He wanted to be freed from temptation. He wanted his body freed so that it could follow the laws of God not being drawn away by mortal flesh.

 

[Author]

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