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Hi Gene,
As soon as you answer my question I will look at yours.
Do you think the OT is just superstition?
Hi Gene,
You need to decide if scripture is inspired or not.
If it is then you should not keep cutting the bits out that do not fit with your ideas.
Nick….I really don’t think, quoting what God the Father “clearly” said, is cutting out anything, in fact you are cutting out his very own words and changing them to fit your own ideas. Something Jesus never did nor do i. Your refusal to answer my request is only proof of it.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi Gene,
The soul that sins shall die.
The law of sin and death.
I ask again.
Are you under the law of sin and death?
Hi TruthComber,
Please consider the following passages, as I believe you are incorrect.
1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This tells us that the DEAD (those asleep in Christ) will RISE from the DEAD first, the saints. Then those that are alive at Christ’s return also known as saints will be caught up together with Jesus and the other saints that were just risen from being DEAD.
NOT come down from heaven with Jesus, but rise FROM the DEAD.
1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The Saints are DEAD, they are not alive. When Christ comes they are made ALIVE AGAIN.
Not be given a body again, but they will be ALIVE AGAIN.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The DEAD will be RAISED to life.
Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When Jesus comes the saints are risen from being DEAD and Christ is glorified in them by making them alive again and giving them eternal life.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Christ is coming to earth with the saints, but they have to be risen from the dead first, at his coming, meeting him in the air, then coming down to execute judgment.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskin*; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The Saints are DEAD (asleep in Christ) and they have not yet been MADE PERFECT. Perfection comes when you take a faithful mortal who has died or a mortal who remains alive at Christs coming and you give him an immortal body, one that is no longer subjected to the fear of death, and thus is not in the bondage of temptation to serve the flesh. You have a perfected mind faithful to God combined with a perfected body, one that is unable to die or be tempted.
When Christ returns the SAINTS are raised up from the dead and changed first before those who are alive in Christ. All will be united in the air receiving the PROMISE, and then they will come down together to execute judgement on the earth.
Hi Nick,
Jesus saved us from the law of sin and death, and what that equates to is that even though we shall die we shall be made alive again.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
All die, except those who are the faithful that are still alive at his coming.
Those that are dead are RISEN and MADE ALIVE AGAIN.
ALIVE=Zoopoieo
to produce alive, begat or bear living young, to cause to live, make alive, give life
Zoopoieo also used later in 1 Corinthians 15 as quickening,
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The first Adam sinned and died, the last Adam did not sin and his spirit was made alive again. God quickened or made alive his spirit. The last Adam (the red earth) his spirit was quickened, made alive. God did not allow the flesh of Jesus to see decay but God quickened his spirit and gave his flesh eternal life.
God made the person Jesus alive again, He did not allow his body to see decay, He restored the life of Jesus, the life of a man whose mind and heart had been perfected, and He gave him an eternal body made of “the red earth”, a MAN not made of blood but of the gift of the water of life.
Revelations 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
John 14:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
When we are baptized in water it represents repentance and our sins being washed away by our belief in what God accomplished in Christ, this symbolizes the future true cleanse of our flesh, turning from blood into a spring of water welling up to eternal life, where death and temptation of the flesh are no more.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Jesus was raised from being dead, having his spirit made alive again, having his flesh not see corruption but having it be born of water and receiving the Spirit of eternal life, and he entered God’s eternal kingdom.
Hi Jodi,
You wrote:
Please consider the following passages, as I believe you are incorrect.
1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This tells us that the DEAD (those asleep in Christ) will RISE from the DEAD first, the saints. Then those that are alive at Christ’s return also known as saints will be caught up together with Jesus and the other saints that were just risen from being DEAD.
NOT come down from heaven with Jesus, but rise FROM the DEAD.
(1 Cor 15) 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The DEAD will be RAISED to life.Me:
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Me: So being asleep in Christ does not necessarily mean to be dead. Let us continue.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:…11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Click on the link below. Then click above rest on 373.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/6-11.htmDefinition: I make to rest, give rest to; mid. and pass: I rest, take my ease.
Me: There is nothing about death.
For 1 Thes 4:16 Click on the link below: Then click on 3498 above dead. You will find dead body or corpse as the primary definition
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;
1 Thes 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Me: White robes were given to them to clothe their new bodies in heaven.
You: 1 Thes 4:16… and the dead in Christ will rise first…
Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 450 above “will rise”.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm
The best fitting definition to the whole scheme presented is:
c. to raise up, cause to be born: σπέρμα offspring (Genesis 38:8), Matthew 22:24 (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 33 (32)); τόν Χριστόν, Acts 2:30 Rec. to cause to appear, bring forwardHi Jodi,
You wrote:
1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The Saints are DEAD, they are not alive. When Christ comes they are made ALIVE AGAIN.
Not be given a body again, but they will be ALIVE AGAIN.Me: Notice “Christ the first fruits”. First fruits is plural. The saints are one with Christ and form the spiritual temple of God. So Christ the first fruits are Christ and his saints. His saints are made alive and pass into life when they are baptized in spirit and are resurrected into life.
That version of 1 Cor 15:23 is not a good translation and is biased to the belief that Christ raises the dead that belong to him.1 Cor 15:22 (interlinear) Each however in the own order first fruit (plural) Christ then those of Christ at the coming of him.
Me: If Christ and his church are the first fruits, then the rest of mankind must be saved after his coming.You:
Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.Me: They are put to death as far as we can see their bodies.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Hi Jodi,
Me:
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 25 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet ____; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/7-38.htm
Me: First of All, click on the above link. Then click on 3826 above belly. The symbolic definition is heart or inner mind. This is the heart of flesh which is of Christ. It is of the mind of Christ.
Ezk 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Me: The promise of the holy spirit of God was the spirit with the resurrected heart and mind of Christ in it. Water in John 7:39 symbolizes the water in John 3:5 which symbolizes being baptized of the holy spirit. This is the requirement to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Resurrected into life is when someone receives the holy spirit, mind and heart of Christ at baptism of the holy spirit. Born again is when in addition to the holy spirit and heart of Christ, we receive new bodies liken unto Christ’s body. This happens when Christ returns. John 3:6 has a two fold meaning. It is first the natural human flesh and then the spirit flesh liken unto Christ at his return. Likewise the same is with spirit (Ezk 36:26 above). We have the one spirit, which is the holy spirit (Eph 4:4).
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Me: We are resurrected with Christ after we are baptized with the holy spirit and we rise into life where we die no more if we do not backslide and quench the holy spirit.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Hi Jodi,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
Me: Your spiritual attributes enter into the kingdom of God after you are cleanest by the blood of Christ. The last step is born again to salvation when your body changes from a fleshly one to a spirit one.
Good Morning Truthcomber,
You are denying IMO what is clearly written, and misunderstanding other passages to fit that which you deny.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
His FLESH RESTS in HOPE, his flesh rests to be raised from the dead and given incorruptible flesh. Jesus was raised from the dead incorruptible, his flesh not seeing decay but changed into being incorruptible. Likewise Paul spoke of having his body delivered.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve* the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
It is MORTAL flesh that makes the mind of man weak, makes him live in fear, makes him desire to feed his flesh unto life, invoking the imagination to feed the flesh in a manner that is at enmity against God and His correct path. Jesus was raised with a BODY of LIFE, a body of glory and power, not weak, not able to be tempted and drawn away from God’s path. Jesus WAS tempted just as we are tempted because he had a WEAK MORTAL BODY. The GLORIFIED BODY he was raised with was FLESH and BONES given the water of eternal life raised in glory and power.
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
ACCORDING to the FLESH Jesus having the genealogy of David sits with God on His throne!! So many deny this clear written passage! Jesus sits on the throne as a spiritually minded Son of MAN who has incorruptible flesh a body of the Holy Spirit filled with eternal life, a body that does not tempt the mind, a body that does not separate us from God.
Why you and Nick as well as others want to throw away God’s amazing creation of MAN, of the Last Adam “the red earth” made incorruptible, is beyond me! Jesus’s mind was perfected in his mortal body through the works of God’s Spirit on a HUMAN MIND of which exists through God’s creation from “the red earth”. God gave the perfected HUMAN MIND a perfected human body to go with that mind. Jesus was considered to be not of this world, likewise those in faith are considered not of this world. When you live according to faith and desire to do God’s will you are SPIRITUAL. “Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ.” “To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” The carnal mind only exists in mortal flesh. When you combine a spiritually minded man with an incorruptible body you are perfected, you are not of the first Adam but of the last Adam “the red earth” raised incorruptible in glory and power (1 Corithinans 15). Hebrews 11 tells us the saints have NOT yet received the promise. David is sleeping, he is RESTING, he is DEAD, and when the SON OF MAN of the seed of David of flesh and bones, comes in the clouds David is RAISED from the GRAVE being changed into incorruptible flesh, and meeting his son in the air. They come down to earth with others to bring judgment.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
The flesh of Jesus did not see corruption, instead that flesh saw eternal life by being born of the water of life.
1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
As Jesus died and was MADE ALIVE AGAIN, having his spirit quickened, having his body not see corruption but raised in glory and power, we believe ours is the same fate, that when Jesus returns to earth he brings with them the dead raised to life again.
We have prophets and Jesus himself who refer to DEATH as SLEEP, and sleep is known as to REST.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
This would clearly be the SAINTS, those who have not yet received the promise, who will be made ALIVE again and receive eternal life at Christ’s coming.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
If when you die it is like sleep as we are told, you are in an unconscious state. Some of Christ’s followers died by being beaten and crucified by the Roman emperor a slanderer/devil of the time. They took their last breath as a mortal professing Jesus, and their next conscious state is meeting Christ in the clouds as an immortal with eternal life. It is to them as though no time has passed. Going from death being DEAD, to being ALIVE again, is to them an instantaneous occurrence.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Christ is the firstfruits, the firstfruits of God Spirit, the many gifts of God’s Spirit of which He gives to Christ first. At Christ’s coming those that are Christ’s, the saints dead or alive known as God’s elect, likewise receive the fruits of the Spirit, the gifts of God’s Spirit. The dead saints are raised and receive the promise before those in Christ who are still alive.
Acts 25:19 But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Jesus ceased to exist, in the grave you have no knowledge, no plans, you cannot praise God, Jesus was said to be LOST. Then he was ALIVE again and found!!
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
They are not ALIVE in any form, they are dead, just as Jesus was not alive in any manner until he was raised from being dead.
Hi Jodi,
You wrote:
You are denying IMO what is clearly written, and misunderstanding other passages to fit that which you deny.Me: Whatever IMO is I guess I am denying it?
Truthcomber,
3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is MY HELPER, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
You really want to say that verse 5 is telling us that we do not really die? That when we die we stay consciously aware?
Keeping verse 4 in the CONTEXT of the passage what is being said is that Christ does not forsake us during our persecution, during our adversity, we shall not fear what men shall do unto us, he will not forsake us or leave us in times of adversity.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
When Stephen faced persecution and being stoned to death he professed his faith to the end having Christ’s strength in him, and he fell asleep, he died. He told Jesus to receive his spirit, not saying such as if he believed he was going to rest in a conscious state separated from his body, he was telling Jesus to receive his life, to hold it, to know that it was worthy to obtain a resurrection.
He died knowing that Jesus would hold his life for him, a life considered as being righteous, counted as a son of God and thus being a child of the resurrection.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Truthcomber,
In my opinion from what I read from scripture I believe you are denying scripture.
You said, “Me: They are put to death as far as we can see their bodies.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”If you read all of Paul’s words from other passages you can clearly identify that which he means in verse 5:8. Read Romans 6 and 7! When we have our minds set on the body and serving it we sin and thus are separated from God, when we are spiritually minded we are present with the Lord.
If you are confident in the flesh feeling right at home in your mortal body and obey it in it’s lusts your are not at home with the Lord.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
Paul prefers it when he is able to deny his weak mortal flesh, as he is at home with the Lord.
Paul was eager to be rescued from a body of death, and receive a body of immortality. Because that which he wanted to do was difficult because of his weak flesh.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Paul’s hope was in the resurrection, to be given a body that is not subject to death.
READ 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the resurrection, not of receiving anything at death.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
2 Timothy 2:18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
He tells us in Hebrews 11 that the saints have not been made perfect that comes from receiving the promise.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hi Jodi,
You wrote:
You are denying IMO what is clearly written, and misunderstanding other passages to fit that which you deny.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
His FLESH RESTS in HOPE, his flesh rests to be raised from the dead and given incorruptible flesh. Jesus was raised from the dead incorruptible, his flesh not seeing decay but changed into being incorruptible. Likewise Paul spoke of having his body delivered.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve* the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
It is MORTAL flesh that makes the mind of man weak, makes him live in fear, makes him desire to feed his flesh unto life, invoking the imagination to feed the flesh in a manner that is at enmity against God and His correct path. Jesus was raised with a BODY of LIFE, a body of glory and power, not weak, not able to be tempted and drawn away from God’s path. Jesus WAS tempted just as we are tempted because he had a WEAK MORTAL BODY. The GLORIFIED BODY he was raised with was FLESH and BONES given the water of eternal life raised in glory and power.Me:
Bible definition of flesh:
https://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm
c. the sensuous nature of man, ‘the animal nature’: without any suggestion of depravity, τό θέλημα τῆς σαρκός, of sexual desire, John 1:13; the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
Flesh can mean the body or the spirit of the body with it’s heart and mind. It is the soul that makes the body alive that causes us to sin, not the body per se.Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Me: Those born again have two minds, one of the spirit and one of the flesh.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead…
Those not born of the holy spirit have but one mind, that of the flesh. For God had sentenced Adam and his descendants to death. This means a mind, spirit and body of death. The natural man does not have the eternal spirit of life in a spirit mind.
Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Me: The holy spirit is in the mind of the spirit. The soul of the flesh is in the mind of the flesh. The holy spirit (new wine) is put in the new minds (bottles).
Verse 8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 8 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Me: Notice, the body is dead, not the holy spirit in our minds. It will never die if we endure until the end. We can follow the holy spirit with the mind of Christ in it (Phil 2:5) in our spirit minds, or we can follow the soul in our fleshly minds. Both minds have to be images of each other, just like the new body and old body will be images of each other. All things are become new ( 2 Cor 5:17). The body is the last to be new. The human spirit mind cannot die, because we are bonded to the human spirit mind of the Messiah through the holy spirit–if we endure to the end lives. Only our bodies of flesh can die at this point.
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Duet 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Me: Follow one or the other. Follow the spirit and live or follow the flesh and die (Romans 8:13).
Hi Jody,
You:
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
His FLESH RESTS in HOPE, his flesh rests to be raised from the dead and given incorruptible flesh. Jesus was raised from the dead incorruptible, his flesh not seeing decay but changed into being incorruptible. Likewise Paul spoke of having his body delivered.Me: The body is the last to be renewed. That is when salvation is complete. That is when we are born again.
Hi Jody,
You: It is MORTAL flesh that makes the mind of man weak, makes him live in fear, makes him desire to feed his flesh unto life, invoking the imagination to feed the flesh in a manner that is at enmity against God and His correct path. Jesus was raised with a BODY of LIFE, a body of glory and power, not weak, not able to be tempted and drawn away from God’s path. Jesus WAS tempted just as we are tempted because he had a WEAK MORTAL BODY. The GLORIFIED BODY he was raised with was FLESH and BONES given the water of eternal life raised in glory and power.
Jesus was raised with a BODY of LIFE, a body of glory and power, not weak, not able to be tempted and drawn away from God’s path. Jesus WAS tempted just as we are tempted because he had a WEAK MORTAL BODY. The GLORIFIED BODY he was raised with was FLESH and BONES given the water of eternal life raised in glory and power.Me: As per above it is the spirit of death from the body of death in the mind of man that causes him to sin.
Romans 8:2 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (by which) all have sinned:
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.Me: It was Christ’s human body and the mind therein that paid for our sin before he was resurrected from the dead, not his body that was resurrected from the dead and later glorified.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him…9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Me: Christ did not sin because he was the direct expression of God. He had the holy spirit, and only the holy spirit as his spirit. He had the spirit human mind and only the human spirit mind. He was the only begotten of God with the holy spirit in his spirit human mind at his physical birth. Therefore he could not sin (1 John 3:9 above) He was indeed the son of God. We, on the other hand, die to our human spirits and human minds when we are resurrected spiritually into heaven. We have our spirit human minds and the holy spirit as our only minds and spirit. When we were baptized, we each had a spirit mind restored to us.
Hi Jodi,
You: Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Me:
Verse 27 is addressing David and not Christ.
Acts 2:31
Click on the link below. Then click on 5590 above soul.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-27.htm
NASB Translation of soul
heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7),mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1).
Soul as the spirit of the body does not make sense because Christ had only one spirit, the holy spirit. So it is mind that is the right translation.Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend (the) spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Me Look at the Greek. The ghost Christ gave up was the holy spirit. “Spirit” is actually capitalized, indicating the holy spirit. So the Messiah died when he gave up the holy spirit which he committed to his father’s care. There was no other spirit in hades with Christ.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/23-46.htmYou: Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Me: It was the holy spirit of Christ that rose him from the dead. It is the holy spirit that rose us spiritually from the dead when we were baptized in the holy spirit. Thus, we receive the holy spirit, and it is this spirit in us that will raise our mortal bodies from the dead.
You: ACCORDING to the FLESH Jesus having the genealogy of David sits with God on His throne!! So many deny this clear written passage! Jesus sits on the throne as a spiritually minded Son of MAN who has incorruptible flesh a body of the Holy Spirit filled with eternal life, a body that does not tempt the mind, a body that does not separate us from God.
Me: agreed
Hi Jodi,
You wrote:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins,Me:
Young’s Literal Translation
‘Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;https://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm
Most of the translation have “was dead” and not “is dead”. His tomb is with us because his body is still dead, not the holy spirit in his mind. The same can be said of Acts 2:34.
You: ACCORDING to the FLESH Jesus having the genealogy of David sits with God on His throne!! So many deny this clear written passage! Jesus sits on the throne as a spiritually minded Son of MAN who has incorruptible flesh a body of the Holy Spirit filled with eternal life, a body that does not tempt the mind, a body that does not separate us from God.
Me: I do not disagree with this particularity, except Christ was always the spiritually minded son (of God) of man.
Exodus 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?Duet 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. God knew what he was doing. You are saying that it was possible for Christ to sin.
Me: Nope! So God can be tempted to God against his will, which is pure, but he could not enticed to do so. So it is with Christ, he was tempted to go against the word of God, but could not so.
https://www.gotquestions.org/test-God.htmlChrist’s body without death and sin in it together with the holy spirit as his only spirit did not yield to temptation, especially when God directed his life as he grew in the h0ly spirit.
You:
Why you and Nick as well as others want to throw away God’s amazing creation of MAN, of the Last Adam “the red earth” made incorruptible, is beyond me! Jesus’s mind was perfected in his mortal body through the works of God’s Spirit on a HUMAN MIND of which exists through God’s creation from “the red earth”. God gave the perfected HUMAN MIND a perfected human body to go with that mind. Jesus was considered to be not of this world, likewise those in faith are considered not of this world. When you live according to faith and desire to do God’s will you are SPIRITUAL. “Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ.” “To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” The carnal mind only exists in mortal flesh.
Me: never said contrary to this. If you can find the page number with the date and time, enlighten me.
Hi Jodi,
You: When you combine a spiritually minded man with an incorruptible body you are perfected, you are not of the first Adam but of the last Adam “the red earth” raised incorruptible in glory and power (1 Corithinans 15).
Me:
Matt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Me: Ultimately, what you said is true. But the new wine is perfected first to be put into the new body.
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