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Hi Gene,
1 Peter 3.18
For Christ also died for sins, once for all, having been put to death in the flesh,
but made alive in the Spirit; in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the time of Noah,
during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons,
were brought safely through the water.
You call scripture RUBBISH.?
Hi Gene,
So you have to get past fleshly thinking. It is possible to die in the flesh and yet live in the Spirit.
What happened to Jesus is your hope too so the sooner you understand the better.
Hi Gene and Nick this might help
Spirit, Soul and Body
Written by Charles BedwellOf all topics in scripture, the subject of the Spirit, soul and afterlife is one of the most intriguing ones. It is also one of the most heavily misunderstood topics as well, and one that Satan will use to his advantage in the end times. But like most doctrines in the Bible, so many today view the subject of Biblical life and what happens after death as “something not really all that important to understand. After all, all you have to do is “believe”. God will work out all of the other minor things.” Have you heard that line of thinking before? I know I sure have.
The truth is that God’s chosen people (that is, God’s people of ALL nations, multitudes, and languages who serve and obey Him) should have a yearning to fully understand ALL of God’s messages. With everything, there is a definite Biblical truth. If we pray to earnestly understand it and have an open, humble heart – then God will lead us in the right direction.
I’m not going to spend the time in this article to explain thoroughly what happens at judgment, though that will be briefly touched on. This article is meant to discuss the Biblical differences between the spirit, the soul, and the body. Trust me, this is extremely important to understand. Having or not having a firm understanding of this will determine if you understand exactly what Jesus did on the cross, what He did afterward, and what He promises for YOU if you die as one of God’s elect. Also, having a true understanding of this issue will put you in good stead during the last days when Satan unleashes his final deceptions.
There is much confusion about God’s creation – man. But the following information will (hopefully) give you a clearer understanding of God’s creation and the future.
The Modern Christian Theory
What is mostly taught today is that God created man and placed a spirit “being” inside of him. Additionally, it is taught that man also has a “soul” floating around inside of him, which will eventually “float” off to heaven or “hell”.Whoa, let’s make an immediate STOP right there!
There is already a major problem with this theory. If most believe that we have a “spirit” inside of us, then why is it believed that we also have a “soul” too? Are we to believe the spirit and soul are the same thing? Are there TWO beings trapped inside of us?
Before we go further, we must biblically identify what these things are so that we can clear this all up.
.
What is Man Exactly? How Was he Created by God?
Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)…’And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his What is Man?nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.’Genesis 2:7 (KJV) …’And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.’
As we can see here, a “living being” and a “living soul” are the same exact thing. Also, in this very verse is the entire equation of life. And did you notice the word “became”, instead of “was given”? VERY important point! So let’s look at the equation of life:
Dust of the ground (Body) + The breath of life (Spirit) = A living being (Soul/Man)
Now doesn’t that make a lot of sense? The problem is that this Bible truth already conflicts with the modern theory that a person has a SEPARATE, IMMORTAL spirit/or soul/or both inside of him. We see that man before coming to life was merely dust of the ground – a breathless, lifeless body. It was the breath of life from God that brought Adam to life, making him a living soul. That’s the important point to gain from this. Adam wasn’t “GIVEN” a soul. Adam BECAME a living soul with the breath (Spirit) of God inside of him.
Breath of Life
To understand this truth more, let’s cover some more scripture to show what happens when a person dies in this life.Ecclesiastes 12:7 …’Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.’
An amazing connection is made here. Before we saw that the breath of life was added to dust of the ground to create man. Now we see that when a person dies, the dust returns to the ground and “the spirit” returns to God.
The scripture says that the spirit and the breath of life are the same thing!
This may sound abstract or different to you, but the scriptural meaning is clear, and we’ll check out a few more scriptures just to re-emphasize this truth.
James 2:26 …’For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.’
We already know that it is the breath of life from God that keeps our bodies alive, and yet again we see that the spirit and the breath of life are the same thing.
Pay close attention to the amazing truth uncovered in this following scripture from the King James Version and the New King James Version:
Job 27:3,4,8 (NKJV) …’As long as my breath is in me, And the breath of God in my nostrils, My lips will not speak wickedness, Nor my tongue utter deceit. For what is the hope of the hypocrite, Though he may gain much, If God takes away his life?’
Job 27:3,4,8 (KJV) …’All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?’
Yet again, the scriptures are profoundly consistent. We can see the clear connection from the NKJV and the KJV that “the breath of God” = spirit of God; and “life” = soul. Without a doubt, we know that Job isn’t literally saying that “a spirit” (in the context believed today, ie, a separate human spirit) resided in Job’s nostrils. But that the breath of God was in his nostrils. And THAT is what gives man life and makes him a “living soul”.
Question: What spirit is it that we see returning to God when a person dies?
Answer: The Breath of God!What about a soul? Well, we showed above more than once that a soul simply means a LIVING being. This brings us to another obvious question: Can a soul die?
Revelation 16:3 …’And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.’ … The NKJV says “living creature”.
Ezekiel 18:20 …’The soul who sins shall die.’
Matthew 10:28 …’And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.’
Jesus tells us that man is only able to destroy your body. That matters little for eternity because Jesus is able to resurrect a dead body by giving you the breath of life again and transform that body into an incorruptible body. However, Jesus says that God is able to FULLY extinguish your life by destroying both body and soul, blotting a person out for all of eternity.
Giving up the Ghost
When many brush past the scriptures that deal with the words “spirit” and “ghost” being used, it is naturally assumed that the context is the same. Look at a few examples of “giving up the ghost”.Genesis 25:8,17 …’Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people … And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.’
Genesis 35:29 …’And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.’
You will see from all of those examples that giving up the ghost simply means “breathing the last breath”. The Hebrew word used is H1478 – gava, which means “to expire, to breath the last breath, to die”.
Luke 23:46 …’And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.’
But what about that scripture? It seems to say that Jesus dies and commends His spirit at the same time. Is Jesus denoting two different things? Remember, when Job said that “the spirit of God is in my nostrils”, Job meant that the breath of God was in him. The Hebrew word Job used was ruwach, which means breath of life or wind.
The word “spirit” Jesus used above in Luke 23 is pneuma. Now, pneuma is also a word that can represent the Holy Spirit as well. However, you have to read this verse in context to see what Jesus is saying. Pneuma can also mean breath of life, other spirits such as demons, or the Holy Spirit. It depends on the context of the specific scripture used. So, when Jesus said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:”, was Jesus saying that He was going instantly to Heaven when He died? Not a chance. We know that Jesus did not go to Heaven right after dying, but actually rested in the grave for three days and three nights.
John 20:17 …’Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’
When you read the context, as well as the other scriptures, you will see that Jesus was actually saying, “Father, into thy hands I give my last breath.”
Matthew 27:50 …’Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.’
That verse sounds very similar to Luke 23:46, doesn’t it. Just like the examples in Genesis and in Luke, it says “yielded up the ghost”. So surely ghost here is gava like the others, right? No it’s not. Ghost in this context is the same word for spirit from Luke, the word pneuma. Connecting the context between Luke 23 and Matthew 27, we see that they are saying the same exact thing: Jesus was telling God that He was about to breath His last breath. Spirit and ghost in these scriptures are interchangeable.
The Immortal Soul Doctrine
Already we see the scriptures greatly contradicting what is taught today. What is typically preached today is that when a person dies, they immediately go straight to their everlasting dwelling – Heaven or “hell” (misinterpreted from the lake of fire). Based on what we’ve already learned here, that theory doesn’t add up very well with scripture, now does it?For quite some time, professing Christians have been instructed to believe that all people are judged when they die, and immediately go “up” or “down”. Is this Biblically sound though?
Question: What would be the point of the Great White Throne Judgment at the very end if all people have already been judged?
Do the scriptures actually say that all righteous people instantly “go to Heaven” when they die?
John 5:28,29 …’Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.’
Acts 2:29,34 …’Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day … For David did not ascend into the heavens.’
Job 14:10-12 …’But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he? As water disappears from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dries up, So man lies down and DOES NOT rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.’
1 Corinthians 15:51,52 …’Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.’
Again, the KJV uses “man giveth up the ghost” in Job 14:10 instead of “he breathes his last”, showing they always mean the same thing. These above scriptures are very plain and clear, my friends. There is no instant resurrection or floating away to heaven at death. Man sleeps at death, awaiting his resurrection at the very end – some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt (death). Every single scripture in the Holy Bible resonates this truth in one accord.
But what about the scripture that says “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”?? Well, let’s look into that highly discussed scripture and see if it ACTUALLY even says that at all.
Also remember, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible portray one unified message on a topic, then we need not stumble upon one scripture but should study that scripture with prayer and diligence.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 …’So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.’
Something MUCH different is said here than is commonly believed. Paul does NOT say that when a person dies, they immediately go to be with the Lord. Look closely – he says that while we are at home (on this earth) in the body, we are absent from the Lord. Is Paul contradicting his MANY other scriptures that proclaim the resurrection at the end? Of course not. When we die, our bodies go into the ground. Are our bodies still on the earth after we die? YES! Paul is merely saying that he would much RATHER be away from this earthly body and have his NEW incorruptible body at the resurrection! Notice what he says just verses earlier:
verses 2-4 …’For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.’
Do you see this amazing truth?! Paul says we groan, not because of wishing to die, but because we desire to have our heavenly bodies and not these earthly bodies any longer. When do we receive our heavenly bodies?? At the resurrection when Jesus returns to gather the elect!
How Dangerous is the Immortal Soul Doctrine?
Friends, please think heavily upon this question. I promise you that this doctrine is not just a “minor” issue. Believe it or not – this very false doctrine of Rome will be one of the greatest deceptions Satan uses during the time of the mark of the beast. Think about this: What major lie did Satan (the serpent) tell Eve in the Garden of Eden in the beginning?Genesis 3:4 …’Then the serpent said to the woman, You will not surely die.’
The very lie that Eve believed of Satan is now heavily accepted in the professing Christian world. This is the way Satan operates – with lying signs, wonders, miracles, and other various ungodly deceptions. In God’s Holy Word, we are actually warned that Satan is preparing something HIGHLY deceptive to encourage the world’s accepting of the mark of the beast.
Revelation 18:23 …’The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.’
Revelation 16:14 …’For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.’
Matthew 24:23,24 …’Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ DO NOT believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.’
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 …’The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.’
These warnings from God tell us that Satan is currently preparing the GREATEST deception of all time. Powerful language is used to describe this sorcery, lying signs and wonders, spirits of demons, false CHRISTS and false prophets, unrighteous deception, and STRONG delusion. Friends, this is no light matter. We are told that the ENTIRE world will be deceived! Do not believe Satan’s Immortal Soul doctrine! It is by this cunning snare that the serpent will once again fool the entire world into falling into his trap.
2 Corinthians 11:14 …’And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
Ahh, but what about the souls crying out to God under the altar in Revelation?
Revelation 6:9,10 …’When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
A major mistake that so many professing Christians make today is assuming that every scripture from Revelation is literal. For example, a beast is not literally a beast but is a kingdom. A whore is not literally a whore but is a false church. This scripture above is also symbolic. Those who died and are “crying out” to God under the altar symbolically shows John in prophetic vision, telling us that God WILL repay for the actions of the wicked. And notice what God says to Cain after he killed Abel:
Genesis 4:10 …’And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.’
Was Abel’s blood literally crying out to God from the ground? Absolutely not. Using symbolism, God was illustrating to Cain that He was aware of what Cain had done. The dead saints under the altar in John’s vision are also not literally crying out to God. The dead know nothing, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 confirms.
If the people of this world believe in being able to communicate with “familiar spirits” and that the dead never really die, then they are prepping themselves up for accepting Satan’s great lying signs, powers, and wonders. Do not fall prey to this false doctrine. Satan, The Great Deceiver, wants the same thing for you that he wanted for Eve when he lied to her with the immortal soul belief in the beginning – Death.
How does God feel about the teaching that the dead are alive and being able to communicate with the dead?
Leviticus 20:27 …’A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them.’
When Saul, king of Israel, consulted a medium – how did God react?
1 Samuel 28:5-8,11,13 …’When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.” And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a seance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.” Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’
Saul didn’t have faith in God, and feared the army of Philistines, so he decided to consult a medium to attempt to “speak to Samuel”. However, the dead know nothing and Saul knew he was forbidden to do this. The Hebrew word for spirit used here is elohiym, which does not mean breath of life but either stands for God or angels. We know that God nor His angels in Heaven would advocate meeting with Saul in this manner, transforming themselves into the visual perception of another person. So what was this spirit/angel? A demon. It is Satan’s craft to work with deceptions like this and to take away peoples’ faith in God. And what was God’s judgment on Saul for doing this?:
1 Samuel 31:3-6 …’The battle became fierce against Saul. The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers. Then Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me.” But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword, and died with him. So Saul, his three sons, his armorbearer, and all his men died together that same day.’
Saul didn’t die quickly, though. When David received the report of what happened to Saul, this is what he found out …
2 Samuel 1:6-10 …’Then the young man who told him said, “As I happened by chance to be on Mount Gilboa, there was Saul, leaning on his spear; and indeed the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him. Now when he looked behind him, he saw me and called to me. And I answered, ‘Here I am.” And he said to me, ‘Who are you?’ So I answered him, ‘I am an Amalekite.’ He said to me again, ‘Please stand over me and kill me, for anguish has come upon me, but my life still remains in me.’ So I stood over him and killed him, because I was sure that he could not live after he had fallen. And I took the crown that was on his head and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them here to my lord.’
A very tragic end this was for Saul, indeed. This should be a dire warning to us. God does NOT feel keen about people attempting to communicate with the dead in ANY way whatsoever.
Is There a Spirit Inside of us?
We’ve already discussed what it means when someone “gives up the spirit” or has the spirit inside of them in order to live. It simply means the breath of life from God. A living soul is a man (dust of the earth) who has received God’s breath (spirit) to become alive. Without God’s breath of life, our bodies would just be lifeless bodies of dust. However, there IS a Spirit who joins with the righteous.2 Corinthians 5:5 …’Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.’
1 Corinthians 15:45 …’And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.’
1 Corinthians 3:16 …’Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
The word spirit here is not the breath of life, but is G4151 – pneuma, the word we mentioned before. In all of the contexts just above, pneuma represents the Holy Spirit here. When was the Spirit of God given to us?
John 16:7-13 …’Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.’
When Jesus died on the cross, resurrected, and went up to Heaven – He sent us His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, sent by God, convicts the world of sin and brings men to righteousness. The Holy Spirit abides with those who walk with God. If you are truly guided by the Spirit, you are naturally driven to hate all manners of sin. The carnal flesh is always warring against and is contrary to the Spirit of God, so the two cannot and will not dwell together.
The spirit you are born with is the breath of life, and that is why you are able to live. The Holy Spirit of God will change your heart completely, transforming you into a new being – a being which God will bless with a body which will never be destroyed!
1 Thessalonians 5:23 …’And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.’
After doing this deep study, do you now see what Paul is saying here? He isn’t praying for a spirit “being” and a soul “being” inside of you to be preserved blameless, and he surely isn’t praying for the Spirit of God to remain blameless – The Spirit of God will ALWAYS be blameless! Paul is simply praying for your entire life (spirit + body = soul) to be preserved blameless unto the day of the coming of the Lord Jesus. I personally hope and pray that this truth about the spirit, soul, and body has blessed you immensely.
Hi Gene and Nick
Thought this long post might help
Here is the site:
http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/spirit-soul-body-after-death.html
Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8:
‘to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord’It’s simple: If you belong to God and you aren’t in your body, then you are with Jesus Christ.
Jodi said:
Good Morning t8,
We are not changing scripture, the child that was born was our savior and he is our master. But we were not saved by his birth, he was not anyone’s master when he was a baby.
“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
He was called a savior because he would be a savior!!
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.So do you agree now that he was indeed born as the messiah, the son of God, and the Lord? Still finding it hard to get you to guys to commit to a yes or no.
- Jesus was born the messiah;
- Jesus was not born the messiah.
1 or 2?
But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord! And this will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.”…
T8….No, he was born “TO BE “A” “MESSAIH”. it’s quite unfortinate you can’t see that, just as Moses was also bornto be a messiah.
I quoted scripture wher it “SHALL” be, now does it say that? Yes or No please.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
Hi t8 you said it’s simple to be absent of the body is to bepbe pres with the Lord. Well I wish it was simple but when we deal with diversity of beleif things aren’t that simple. So in saying that you must of missed part of my post.
But what about the scripture that says “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”?? Well, let’s look into that highly discussed scripture and see if it ACTUALLY even says that at all.
Also remember, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible portray one unified message on a topic, then we need not stumble upon one scripture but should study that scripture with prayer and diligence.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 …’So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.’
Something MUCH different is said here than is commonly believed. Paul does NOT say that when a person dies, they immediately go to be with the Lord. Look closely – he says that while we are at home (on this earth) in the body, we are absent from the Lord. Is Paul contradicting his MANY other scriptures that proclaim the resurrection at the end? Of course not. When we die, our bodies go into the ground. Are our bodies still on the earth after we die? YES! Paul is merely saying that he would much RATHER be away from this earthly body and have his NEW incorruptible body at the resurrection! Notice what he says just verses earlier:. God bless Anthony
Hi t8 you said it’s simple. to be absent of the body is to be pres with the Lord. Well I wish it was simple but when we deal with diversity of beleif things aren’t that simple. So in saying that you must of missed part of my post.
But what about the scripture that says “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”?? Well, let’s look into that highly discussed scripture and see if it ACTUALLY even says that at all.
Also remember, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible portray one unified message on a topic, then we need not stumble upon one scripture but should study that scripture with prayer and diligence.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 …’So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.’
Something MUCH different is said here than is commonly believed. Paul does NOT say that when a person dies, they immediately go to be with the Lord. Look closely – he says that while we are at home (on this earth) in the body, we are absent from the Lord. Is Paul contradicting his MANY other scriptures that proclaim the resurrection at the end? Of course not. When we die, our bodies go into the ground. Are our bodies still on the earth after we die? YES! Paul is merely saying that he would much RATHER be away from this earthly body and have his NEW incorruptible body at the resurrection! Notice what he says just verses earlier:. God bless Anthony
Hi t8,
2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
Was Jesus born a king as well? NO!
He is said to be born king of the Jews because that is what he would become. The OT tells us that a person from the tribe of Judah God would anoint with His Spirit, thus become a Messiah a Christ, God would appoint him as a master over all of His creation, that God would appoint him as king over all kings, God would be his Father. When the child was born the wise men knew that this child was the child of God’s promises, and the angels knew before he was born, and God knew before He had even made the heavens and earth.
Consider the LORD’S words,
Isaiah 42:91 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
This is not a pre-existing son that was the LORD’S elect that He was well pleased with. This was a child of the tribe of Judah that grew in grace and knowledge, this is the child that grew that knew to choose the good over the evil.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The LORD is well pleased with a human being, with the child of the tribe of Judah that grew in knowledge by God’s grace being upon him. Christ/Messiah means anointed with God’s Spirit, this child that grew to a man became the Christ when the Spirit descended upon him like a dove.
t8 there is a huge difference between God’s grace being upon a child growing into a man verses a man becoming anointed with God’s Spirit without measure. The baby was not born with God’s Spirit without measure. God anointed a man that had grown to be a faithful SERVANT, from that anointing the Son of God was sent out into the world, and from that anointing Jesus spoke the words of God as God’s messenger, from that anointing Jesus had the ability to look into people’s hearts and forgive sins and heal. From that time that he had been sent out into the world people called him the Son of David recognizing him as the promised Messiah, the Son of God.
This is why I had started the OT Messiah thread, hoping that people would read the Gospels seeing Jesus as the human servant, as the promises God would fulfill within a man of the tribe of Judah. Most do not read the Gospels as though they were a Hebrew who had been waiting for the promises to be fulfilled, instead they read it according to false Christian doctrines, established by men who did not grow up with OT passages, they were men that grew up loving Greek philosophy where they believed mighty men were gods. these men who in fact many of them even hated the Hebrew people, exiled or murdered those that said Jesus was a Messiah of the tribe of Judah and was not the One True God. You likewise t8 seem to deny the Messiah as these so called “early church fathers” did, where they made the Messiah (human anointed with God’s Spirit) into a god instead of the fulfilled promises of a chosen one from among the people.
Matthew 12:5 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Isaiah 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
We are talking about a MAN who God would not give His glory to another. We are not talking about a pre-existing being that already had glory. This man God created a new covenant through. His covenant was not through a pre-existing being becoming a man, it was a MAN being given God’s Spirit without measure.
t8 you seem to deny that Jesus was a human that was perfected through suffering. That perfection was made when a sinless man showed his unrelenting faith in God as he hung on the cross. Without that perfecting of a HUMAN BEING that occurred after his anointing God would not have the perfect human sacrifice needed to pay for our sins.
We are not to see Jesus as a god becoming a human who then died for our sins. Or a pre-existing Son becoming a human to die for our sins. We are to see Jesus as what God can accomplish in a human being through His Spirit. We are to see Jesus as a human servant who God placed His Spirit upon and perfected him. The anointed man came from heaven, CAME FROM GOD, SENT out into the WORLD by God, he was not of this world, he was of the Spirit of God, thus he was of/from heaven. The Spirit came down from heaven and was upon him, this is why Jesus proclaimed AFTER he had been anointed that he came down from heaven. Jesus clearly speaks that he was anointed and SENT, heaven/God had sent him.
Jesus does not speak that he came down from heaven and was transformed into a woman’s womb. The bread of life that came down from heaven was God’s Spirit working in a man, perfecting that man so that he could be the sacrifice. The bread of life was a PERFECTED HUMAN, not a pre-existing son. The bread of life was the man dying on the cross for our sins.
We are not SAVED because a pre-existing son came down from heaven. We are SAVED because God’s Spirit worked perfection into a man.
Jesus SAID he could do NOTHING of himself, it was his anointing that caused him to be able to do all that he did. Jesus speaks of his greatness as a HUMAN BEING being anointed with God’s Spirit.
It seems t8 that you want us to recognize Jesus as being great because of his pre-existence, or because he was willing to become a human for us. Jesus wants us to know that the Father was in him, the Father’s Spirit was in him, he can’t even be considered good without the Father being in him. You are corrupting the glory that Jesus himself spoke of from the TIME of his ANOINTING!! That glory was of a MAN whom the Father was in, teaching him, guiding him, giving him strength. The glory of Jesus is that he was a man just like us able to be tempted, a man who had a human will, who was able to deny temptation and the human will because God was in him. That is his glory, but you want to change that glory.
t8 does Jesus say that everything he did was because he pre-existed and that he came down from heaven through his pre-existing spirit entering into a human? Or does Jesus recognize himself as a Son of Man who accomplished all things through his anointing, through the Father being in him?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Who Jesus is has nothing to do with pre-existing and everything to do with God being mindful of a man, visiting him with His Spirit.
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
The “him” below you and others change from speaking about the man given eternal life to a pre-existing son.
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
God placed his Spirit on a SON OF MAN and crowned him with glory and honor.
You corrupt the passage where the Jesus being spoken of is either referencing the resurrected man that God had been mindful of, the man that God had visited that became perfected, to speaking of a pre-existing son. NOT one verse in Hebrews 2 is speaking of a pre-existing son becoming a man.
They SEE Jesus the resurrected human being, he was the SON OF MAN that had been made a little lower than the angels but was crowned with glory and honor, which is how we see him now. BY the GRACE of GOD the Son of Man who sits at God’s right hand had been made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. The perfected man without sin who did not deserve death, died for us.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The captain of their salvation, the captain that sits at God’s right hand NOW, is a man that God was mindful of, was a Son of Man who God visited, so that God could bring many sons unto glory. All things God had made through and for this man that God had perfected through visiting him. God had planned before He made the world eternal life to humans, of which people were witnesses to the glory of Jesus, a resurrected MAN with eternal life. Everything God had made was for the perfected man and a new heaven and earth, where this man is the firstfruits of God’s Spirit, he is the first to be raised from the dead receiving eternal life. God’s plan from the beginning was through one man sin and death would come, and through one man righteousness and eternal life would come. There is NO plan of sending a pre-existing son to become a human. The plan was to send into the world a man that God had anointed with His Spirit without measure.
The entire passage of Hebrews 2 is to remind people just exactly where our master who sits at God’s right hand came from, that he was the SON of MAN whom God was mindful of and had visited. The passage is declaring that God had made everything in the beginning for this man and for the many sons that would be brought into the glory of eternal life.
Verse 9 is NOT saying, 9 But we see the pre-existing son, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
It is saying, 9 But we see the immortal Son of Man, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
People were witnesses not of a man that went back to being God, or a man that went back to being an eternal Son of God, they saw him as the FIRSTBORN of the dead, of which gave them hope for their own lives. They saw him in the glory that they themselves are to receive. What it will be like and feel like they will not know unto the Son of Man returns among the clouds bringing eternal life to the men and woman he in his currently glory is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
Hi Anthony and t8,
I think that this passage gives light of Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Listen to more words by Paul of which he said before chapter 8,
Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
What does Paul teach us in these passages?
As long as we are mortal and have a mortal body that is subject to death, we are slaves of sin. We recognize the law is good and we want to follow it, but to do so can be a challenge. This is why Paul calls himself a wretched man! Paul gives thanks to God for Christ who will change his mortal body that fears death and thus by nature serves the flesh, and give him an immortal body that does not fear death and thus is no longer by nature needing to serve the flesh in order to live. When Paul is present in his flesh he recognizes those are the times he is a wretched man and he feels absent from the Lord, when Paul is absent from the body not serving his flesh he feels at home with the Lord.
Paul says, “we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.” We please God by acknowledging our times that we give into the flesh and recognize that we are a wretched man who desires God’s Spirit working in us. We please Him when we repent and ask Him to guide us away from our sinful nature. We please God by our hope that we will be delivered from this body of death. Others when they are at home in the body who are not faithful followers of Christ, enjoy their sins and it’s pleasures, and they seek others to follow their sinful ways.
The BODY that Paul is speaking of in 2 Corinthians 5 is the MORTAL BODY, Jesus was raised and people saw him in his glory which was in a NEW incorruptible body that does not perish. Jesus had a mortal body that did not see decay and he was changed into an immortal body. Jesus is PRESENT with the LORD in his NEW BODY. To say that you have to be out of your body to be present with the LORD is WRONG!! Jesus is with God in a new body a body that cannot be tempted, a body that is not weak through the fear of death.
Being at home in the body means that you feel comfortable in your mortal body you feel comfortable living according to the deeds of your flesh. Paul did not feel comfortable in his mortal body, when he put to death the deeds of the flesh he felt at home with the Lord. Paul wanted to be delivered FROM a body that was subjected to death, his HOPE and FAITH was in receiving a body not subjected to death. His hope was not in being absent from a body, his hope was in the resurrection and being given an imperishable BODY!!
1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
Hi Jodi,
Yes Paul understood a new house, a new Body was waiting for him in the heavenlies.
He wanted to be free of the old natural body that housed sin in the flesh.
He knew that when a man dies he is freed from such sin.
Hi Anthony,
The writer does not speak of the division between soul and spirit. Man is a living soul and that life comes from the spirit within him that returns to God at death. The salvation of the soul is the hoped for outcome of our short time on earth.
Hi T8,
Eph 2.4
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ
(by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him in the heavenly places
in Christ Jesus.
The Spirit of Christ unites those in him to him.
Jodi…Another good post, yes Jesus was in deed raised from the dead with a eternal living “BODY’ which is not subjected to death again. Our hope is to attain to that same kind of resurection also.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
Hi Gene,
Yes Jesus was raised in the obselete damaged body of flesh,
to witness that he had fulfilled the sign of Jonah and the promises to David.
Now he too has been clad in the new heavenly imperishable body that cannot contain sin.
Hi Jodi and t8
Good post Jodi. Here is someore on that subject: .
II Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”For many people what the phrase “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”, means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that “WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD”. The phrase “we are willing” shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish “to be absent from the body and present with Lord”. Though a full and clear picture of what this phrase means will be possible only after the examination of its context, we can from the outset preclude that it could ever mean that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord for in a case like this, there would be a stark contradiction with I Thessalonians 4:15-17 that says:
I Thessalonians 4:15-17
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND THUS we SHALL always be with the Lord.“If in II Corinthians 5:6-8 God said that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord, then how could in I Thessalonians 4:17 the same God say that “AND THUS (i.e. by the resurrection, and the changing of the bodies) we SHALL always be with the Lord?” Obviously either the Word is wrong, which is impossible, or the interpretation that is usually given to II Corinthians 5:6-8 is wrong. As we will see by studying the context the later is the case. Thus starting from II Corinthians 4:13 – about fifteen verses earlier – we read:
II Corinthians 4:13-14
“We having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, and therefore I spoke; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he who raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.”What Paul knew by revelation was not that after one dies he continues to live together with the other dead. Instead what he knew and taught was that: “he which RAISER up the Lord Jesus shall RAISE up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.” Paul waited and still waits the resurrection, to be presented, to be together, with those Corinthian believers. The last time he saw them was in the last time he visited Corinth, and the next time he will see them will be when both he and they will be RAISED to meet, together with the alive believers, the Lord in the air. Obviously therefore, the context of our passage is not about death but about its exact opposite: the RESURRECTION of the dead. But let’s continue:
II Corinthians 4:18-5:4
“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”When this passage speaks for a “tabernacle” and for a “house” it obviously does not mean a physical lifeless structure. Really, it is not possible “to be clothed upon” with a physical house, nor is it possible by changing it that “mortality might be swallowed up of life”. When therefore in the above passage the words “house” and “tabernacle” are used, they are used with the meaning of an ALIVE structure, an ALIVE house. In other words they are used with the meaning of a body which as we know is the “house” of our being1. This is also affirmed by the controversial verses 6-8 that follow the above passage and which speak for a BODY. As therefore the above passage (and others as well – see below) tells us, there are two bodies. The one is the earthly body or house which we desire to substitute with the other that is the heavenly body or house. As the passage says when we will be clothed upon with our heavenly body THEN “mortality will be swallowed up of life”. The reader that carefully read the last issue may remember that I Corinthians 15:35-58 says exactly the same. Really there, starting from verse 44 we read:
I Corinthians 15:44-54
“There is a natural [soul] body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual [body] is not first, but the natural [body], and afterward the spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such arethey also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy [the earthly, natural, body], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [the heavenly, spiritual body]. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.“When “will death be swallowed up in victory” (I Corinthians 15:54)? When “shall mortality be swallowed up in life” (II Corinthians 5:4)? The answer of the two passages is very clear: this will happen when “this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality”. It will happen when this “earthy” house (II Corinthians 5:1) or soul body (I Corinthians 15:44), will be substituted with the heavenly house (II Corinthians 5:2) or spiritual body (I Corinthians 15:44), which in turn will occur when the Lord will come back (I Thessalonians 4:15-17). As I Corinthians 15:52-54 tells us, “THEN [and only then] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.“
From all the above it should be clear that the context of the “controversial” passage of II Corinthians 5:6-8 does not speak for death as a hope but for the changing of the bodies, from earthly to heavenly, and from soul to spiritual, which as we saw will happen in the day of the Lord’s coming. With this in mind, let’s now reread verses 6-8:
II Corinthians 5:6-8
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (the earthly body), we are absent from the Lord (we need the heavenly body to be with him): For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body (the earthly body), and to be present with the Lord.”Being in this body we are absent from the Lord. Do we therefore want to be absent from this earthly body? Of course yes, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Does it mean that we want to die? Of course not. Really where does the passage says something like this? In contrast, as II Corinthians 5:4 made clear: “we DON’T want to be unclothed, BUT to be clothed upon”. What therefore we should really desire is not to die (be “unclothed”) for then though we may be absent from the earthly body we will also be absent from the Lord for we will not have the heavenly body either. In contrast, what we should really desire is to be “clothed upon” with our heavenly body, abandoning the present earthly body. Only then, when our earthly body will have been substituted by our heavenly body, we will be present with the Lord (II Thessalonians 4:17). When will this happen? I Corinthians 15 was very clear: “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” God bless
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