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Hi C.S.,
Last night I saw that you said this and I have to say that I totally unite with you in what you said here about what an only begotten son would be!
you said:
We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in the modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds.
But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a… statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is.
Thank you C.S.,
LU
Anthony. ..Don’t just read what JODI has written, study it brother, it is the truth, and scripture supports it completely. I and Nick also preach the same things.
Jesus apsolutely did not preexist his birth on this earth, he is 100% a human being, who as we came into his existence exactly as we do through the combination of human DNA. It makes no difference if GOD supplied his human male DNA, he still is a 100% pure human being just as we are. How else could it say “he is the firstborn of (MANY) BROTHERS”, if we weren’t the same?
ONCE you start seening Jesus in this way, you will form a new relationship with him that will draw you much closer to him. He is our real brother Anthony, who our father has made him the head of his house hold, just as the firistborn of a human family is also considered the head under the Father. We look to him in that capacity. HE is our elder brother in the household of God. He speaks to us in his and our Fathers capacity, the Fathers words.
By making JESUS a God or demigod, is commiting IDOLATRY, that is what nearly all Christendom DOES. They are the ones going down “the wide gate, and the broad way that leads to destruction, that many there be which go in threat: because strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leads to life and (FEW) there be that find it”.
Anthony you can’t have it both ways, you can go the wide way, but i would have you choose the narrow way and the straight gate to leads to life.
THe new testement does not counterdict the old, they both work perfectly together, in fact you can’t get the true understanding with out both. That is why triniarians avoid the old testement, because it exposes their lies, so they just ignore it ,because it doesn’t fit their false perceptions.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Gene . I’m looking in to that Gene
Going to start in Isaiah and check out David and Solomon. Thanks God bless
Hi Nick. ( Adventists)
This is one of the sites I’ve been going to. (a quote.)
He who was born in the form of God took the form of man” (A. T. Jones, The General Conference Bulletin, 1895, p. 449).
“Christ is the only literal Son of God. “The only begotten of the Father.” John 1:14. He is God because he is the Son of God; not by virtue of His resurrection. If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then we cannot be begotten of the Father in a literal sense. It can only be in a secondary sense of the word” (John Matteson, The Review & Herald, October 12, 1869).
“The Scriptures nowhere speak of Christ as a created being, but on the contrary plainly state that he was begotten of the Father.” (Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation, p. 430)
Hi Anthony,
Jesus is not the only literal son of God. So was Adam. Lk 3.39
The second Adam is not the only ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. So was Isaac.Heb 11.17
The most relevant sonship is by being given a share of the Spirit and being led by the Spirit. Rom 8.14
Hi Anthony,
Those deluded into subjection to the OT Law always make keeping the Sabbath vital.
Desperate to please God they neglect the essential rebirth from above
But we follow the one who is the Lord of the Sabbath.
And the new Law is of the Holy Spirit.
Hi LU,
First just let me say that I suggest like Anthony, reading some OT and then using it, as you should for your foundation to the identity of the Messiah.
Can you clarify your belief,
First of all from your last post it seems that you do not believe that Jesus was actually a human being, an actual 100% man, as you posted this, “But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…”
So Jesus to you was not actually a man in any sense other than just looking like one? Just want to make that clear.
Jesus was born of God before he was born of Mary?
Jesus was born of God also when he came from Mary’s womb? How is it that we see GOD full of power strength and truth, but also as a baby, wetting and pooping all over himself, not able to speak words let alone sentences?
You do say Jesus was born of Mary being God right?
If Jesus was born of Mary as a god how is it then that he also needed the Spirit to descend upon him giving him the ability to perform miracles and speak not his words but God’s?
How is it that Jesus should be seen as a god disguised in the flesh according to you, but at the same time believe the words of Jesus that he could do nothing of himself?
Man it is one thing to say a pre-existing Jesus who was a god came down to earth and became an actual human giving up all, being able to be tempted and need his Father for everything, it is another thing to say that Jesus was half human, and therefore needed some things from his Father, but it is beyond me to hear you say instead that he actually was not a human being at all, he only appeared to be one. WOW! I’m kind of speechless!
LU,
I have a CHALLENGE for you and I do hope that you will except it!!
I feel like we should have done this a long while ago with Anthony too.
Let’s discuss the Messiah for awhile ONLY using the OT and no verses from the NT. Let’s put ourselves back in TIME before the baby Jesus was born.
I will start a NEW TOPIC and I hope you will join in!!
Do you think it would be beneficial, switch gears put yourself in the seat of an Israelite back in the day? I would hope you would, as after all God had much to say for many many hundreds of years to the Israelites.
Hi Jodi
You said to light up:
I feel like we should have done this a long while ago with Anthony too.
Let’s discuss the Messiah for awhile ONLY using the OT and no verses from the NT. Let’s put ourselves back in TIME before the baby Jesus was born.
I was going to start with David and Solomon, And study Isaiah lt seem you talk about the alot but I can start with the Messiah. K what do you think? God bless Anthony
Hi Jodi,
I’m not sure how that challenge would benefit us since we all three agree that Jesus was prophesied about as the coming Messiah in the OT, and we all agree that He was to be a man as the Messiah and the Son of David.
I don’t mind a challenge of some sort though. Maybe the topic could be about where the OT speaks about Jesus, sorta like the conversation that Jesus had with the men on the road to Emmaus.
Luke 24:<span class=”reftext”><b>27</b></span> Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Also, I follow along much better in a thread that is limited to two or three people. Would you be interested in setting up a three person conversation in the debate thread? I wouldn’t consider it a formal debate though but rather a closed respectful discussion. Maybe title it “OT Scriptures Concerning Jesus.” Also, I do believe it would be more fruitful if we could agree to keep derogatory insults out of it and admit when we are or could be wrong. Of course the NT should be able to be used to lend support.
What do you think, Anthony and Jodi?
Hi Jodi,
you said:
First just let me say that I suggest like Anthony, reading some OT and then using it, as you should for your foundation to the identity of the Messiah.
I have read through the entire OT chronologically before and read it as individual “books” many times. I am always interested in how the NT helps explain the OT. I think I’m clear on who the Messiah’s identity was…Jesus who came in the flesh as a man in the genealogy of David.
you also said:
First of all from your last post it seems that you do not believe that Jesus was actually a human being, an actual 100% man, as you posted this, “But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…”
I don’t believe that I said that. Can you point me to that?
you asked:
So Jesus to you was not actually a man in any sense other than just looking like one? Just want to make that clear.
His flesh body was as human as Adam’s was and His mind became as blank as a baby’s when brought forth into Mary’s womb. The Son in spirit form is what pre-existed eternally that came into the flesh body as the body’s own spirit. The Son emptied Himself in every way necessary to know nothing of His past and confront life as a normal baby would. He didn’t empty Himself of His past since that would be impossible, I just think that He didn’t remember His past sorta like someone with amnesia. His character was still full of grace and truth in response to everything He encountered and learned as He grew up through normal childhood development, including soiling diapers. Try to picture a baby and then child, adolescent, and young adult, and mature adult always handling themselves gracefully and truthfully and as perfectly as could possibly be expected within normal healthy human development. I believe that He regained His memory of His past over time as the Father would lead Him.
you asked:
Jesus was born of God before he was born of Mary?
Yes, as the only begotten, eternal Son. He was born of God, the Father before anything was made into something in creation. He became Jesus when He was born of Mary.
you asked:
Jesus was born of God also when he came from Mary’s womb?
No, He was “brought forth” by the Holy Spirit into the body being formed by God the Father, in Mary’s womb.Jesus was born of Mary.
you then asked:
How is it that we see GOD full of power strength and truth, but also as a baby, wetting and pooping all over himself, not able to speak words let alone sentences?
Answered in the above paragraph beginning “His flesh body was…”
you asked:
You do say Jesus was born of Mary being God right?
I believe Him to be the eternal offspring part of the one God the Father and as the eternal offspring “part”, He was the same essence as the Father. The Father and the Son are inter-dependently One God united in Spirit. He and the Father did not become independent of each other when Jesus became flesh, Jesus just didn’t realize the inter-dependency because His mind was as blank as a normal healthy baby at His birth from Mary. The Father led Him into all truth as Jesus grew and as the Father felt appropriate.
you asked:
If Jesus was born of Mary as a god how is it then that he also needed the Spirit to descend upon him giving him the ability to perform miracles and speak not his words but God’s?
He wasn’t born of Mary as “a god”, He had always been the same essence as the Father and one with Him inter-dependentally together as the one God, that did not change when He was born of Mary. He was born of Mary as a baby human with a perfect spirit that had eternally existed as the only begotten Son. The Spirit of His Father came to lead Him into His ministry beginning at the Jordan. He always had the ability to perform miracles and speak truthfully, He didn’t know that He could do those miracles because He emptied Himself of remembering that. He always heard His Father but probably didn’t know He was hearing His Father until the Father led Him into that knowledge. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man.
you said:
How is it that Jesus should be seen as a god disguised in the flesh according to you, but at the same time believe the words of Jesus that he could do nothing of himself?
Again, He wasn’t “disguised” in the flesh but actually was contained by flesh. The flesh was His “tent” that He lived in, in other words. The flesh was the temple of the eternal spirit of the eternal and only begotten Son, begotten before the ages. Jesus did nothing of himself because He couldn’t be less than a perfect son. Keep in mind that Jesus did do everything that He saw His Father doing. He wasn’t incapable of speaking His own mind and He did, but it was all in line with the Father’s will. That shows an inter-dependency if you would truly open your eyes to see that, and I’m not trying to be condescending here but encourage you to look at the inter-dependency throughout their relationship.
Finally, you said:
Man it is one thing to say a pre-existing Jesus who was a god came down to earth and became an actual human giving up all, being able to be tempted and need his Father for everything, it is another thing to say that Jesus was half human, and therefore needed some things from his Father, but it is beyond me to hear you say instead that he actually was not a human being at all, he only appeared to be one. WOW! I’m kind of speechless!
Once again, I don’t believe that I said that last part and the rest of it is hopefully made more clear in my other responses in this post.
Btw, that was a fairly short post for you, way to go 🙂
Blessings, LU
Hi Lu,
This is what you posted,
“Last night I saw that you said this and I have to say that I totally unite with you in what you said here about what an only begotten son would be!…..
But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.”If Jesus was in fact a MAN, than he was made of a seed of a man and the egg of a woman, as that is how you get humans. I already explained from the OT and from Paul’s words why Jesus was born of a virgin, and it had nothing to do with him being literally half man of a woman’s egg and half god.
Half god and half man is NOT a MAN, and is not a god, it would be an entirely different being. That is not even what you quoted though from C.S. who said Jesus was not a real man he only looked like one, thus a complete denial that Jesus was actually a man.
That is something I just don’t get from people, if you truly believe that Jesus was in fact a MAN then you would have to believe that he was born of the seed of a man and the egg of a woman, that is the ONLY way you can have a MALE HUMAN CHILD. When people say he was God’s literal seed and a woman’s egg, that does not by any stretch of the imagination MAKE a true human being.
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Man- Anthropos
a human being, whether male or female
generically, to include all human individuals
to distinguish man from beings of a different orderPsalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
MAN enowsh
man, mortal man, person, mankind
of an individual
men (collective)
man, mankindHi Anthony,
Scripture states that CHRIST was made,
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
OT says that God would MAKE a son of man into His Son, and that He would make a Son of man into His firstborn.
The Messiah was to come and come FROM the SEED of David, not FROM an already existing being, that is OT. Messiah means the ANOINTED. Jesus was anointed twice by the Spirit once at the river and once again he had to be anointed after being DEAD.
Having been the ONLY MORTAL being ANOINTED with God’s Spirit without measure He was the Son of Man who BECAME the Son of God, that was prophesied in the OT. The ONLY BORN of the Spirit without measure. This is WHY Acts 2 says that the crucified Jesus was MADE into the CHRIST. Also he is said to be MADE into a master, that is because now he is firstborn, head over all of a new creation to come. That is because a human being having been tempted in every way that we are tempted he makes the perfect JUDGE and RULER over us.
Hi,
Matt 2.3
When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled and all Jerusalem with him.
Gathering together all the chief priests and scribesof the people, he enquired
of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him, in Bethlehem
of Judea, for this is what has been written by the prophet,
‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, are by no means least among the leaders of Judea;
forth out of you shall come forth a ruler who will shepherd my people, Israel’
The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem but his work as Messiah would wait till his anointing.
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your correction, yes Jesus was made the Christ, that is what I meant if I misspoke.
When we see or hear the word Christ it is to be equated with the LORD anointing with His Spirit. Like Gene has said it is Jesus Christ, as in Jesus THE CHRIST, THE ANOINTED. This also transfers into Jesus the baptized, or Jesus the man BORN of God, they all mean the same and it is how Jesus is called the Son of God.
Many as we know all too often read the word CHRIST linked to Jesus and don’t equate it with anointed.
I asked a trinitarian friend of mine a while ago, what the word CHRIST means, and she responded with the Son of God. She had no knowledge of Christ meaning anointed, or that Jesus as the Christ meant the man anointed with God’s Spirit.
Jodi,
In an effort to show me where I said that Jesus was not a man but just looked like a man (which I never said, btw) you put this:
Hi Lu,
This is what you posted,
“Last night I saw that you said this and I have to say that I totally unite with you in what you said here about what an only begotten son would be!…..
But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.”You misread. “That which is not a real man; it only looks like one” was about a carver carving a statue. The statue of a man was not a man but only looks like one. Get it??
Here is the whole quote again:
We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in the modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds.
But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a… statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one…
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is.
“What God begets is God” is referring to the begetting that Proverbs 8 is talking about which gave the Son the title “Firstborn over all creation.”
Proverbs 8
22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,c d
before his deeds of old;
23I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was constantlye at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
Jodi,
you said:
If Jesus was in fact a MAN, than he was made of a seed of a man and the egg of a woman, as that is how you get humans. I already explained from the OT and from Paul’s words why Jesus was born of a virgin, and it had nothing to do with him being literally half man of a woman’s egg and half god.
Half god and half man is NOT a MAN, and is not a god, it would be an entirely different being. That is not even what you quoted though from C.S. who said Jesus was not a real man he only looked like one, thus a complete denial that Jesus was actually a man.
That is something I just don’t get from people, if you truly believe that Jesus was in fact a MAN then you would have to believe that he was born of the seed of a man and the egg of a woman, that is the ONLY way you can have a MALE HUMAN CHILD. When people say he was God’s literal seed and a woman’s egg, that does not by any stretch of the imagination MAKE a true human being.
I have never said that Jesus was “half god and half man” so I don’t know what you are going on and on about this. Again, you misread what I quoted from C.S.
Also, I agree that the natural way to get a human child is from the human male’s sperm fertilizing a human female’s egg. However there is a supernatural way as we know when we see that Adam was formed out of the dust of the earth (no sperm and no egg there) and we see Eve formed out of Adam’s rib (again, no sperm and egg involved there either).
I don’t know who you are referencing that said that Jesus was God’s literal seed and a woman’s egg. I don’t say that. I believe that God the Father took Eve’s egg and SUPERnaturally formed the body prepared for the eternal Spirit of the Son to dwell within. Mary was of the seed of David as also was Joseph of the seed of David. Mary and Joseph both were from Great Grandpa David, the King of Israel.
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