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Gene,
you said:
Anthony, i don’t think were adopted, nor was Jesus either, we spimple were given the holy spirit and thereby became Sons of the Living God. Elect yes, God chose to give us his spirit, the same with Jesus also, you are seeing it as all humanity is childern of different parents, but all people are the childern of God because all humanity came from God in the first place. All the earth and everything in it is his and came from him. There is no adoption involved in that, is there, seening we were all created in the image of God and by God in the first place.
Anthony gave you verses to prove that you are wrong about adoption not being involved in bringing of people into sonship. You ought to acknowledge that you were mistaken. Here are the verses again:
Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh– 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him].
Romans 8:23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Romans 9:1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, [separated] from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the [temple] service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Galatians 4:1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
Ephesians 1:3Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Please acknowledge that those children of God, who repented and believe in Jesus as the Messiah, who is the Lord of glory, who came in the flesh to offer redemption to all of mankind, acknowledge that they are considered adopted sons.
Jesus isn’t an adopted son…no need to adopt a son whom you beget from yourself, Gene. Jesus is the only literal son of God the Father…begotten not made.
Anthony,
you said:
Lightenup what Im saying is that before time was before the creation of anything Jesus was begotten of the Father Yahweh the Father had no beginning. the Son came out of the Father, and that’s when the Son began, He had everything because He is the Son of God the only begotten of the Father. First the Father ( no beginning) second His Son ( began when He came out of the Father (Yahweh) two not three the Holy Spirit is The Spirit of the Father. the Spirit of life or the Spirit of God (Yahweh) and the Son has the Spirit of life also. the only begotten Son,” and he is “in the bosom of the Father. “in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” There is none other in the universe that stands related to God the Father as he does. The term firstborn does not in this case, at least, imply that others were born after him. It only shows his pre-eminence above all things, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. <span class=”woj”>For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to <i>them,</i></span> <span class=”woj”>even so the Son gives life to whom He will. The Son. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me;God bless . I hope that clarify the way I see this.</span>
My response:
Anthony, when the Son came out of the Father, that only began His existing as being begotten. Before that, He existed as “yet to be begotten.”
Also, He is the “firstborn” of all creation does not imply that others were born after him, I agree, but it shows that He was born as well as having pre-eminence above all things.
Anthony think about this, when Jesus was raised from the grave and became the “firstborn from the dead”, He already existed before that, obviously. Persons and animals have to exist before being born in order to be born at all. Every member here pre-existed their birth/begetting (about 9 months). Their birth did not mark their beginning. Their conception marked their beginning.
The begetting of the Son before creation was not His beginning. He had to have pre-existed His begetting in order to even have been begotten in the first place.
I hope that helps! God bless, LU
Hi T8,
No humans were not around, God and His POWERS were, and His word is Powerful and true,
The Word was WITH God. Through the Word, God created all things. Through the son of God, God created all things.
He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Simply put:
- God created all through the Word;
- God created all through the son of God;
- Jesus has a name “The Word of God”.
I do not know how anyone can deny this in good conscience.
This is true even though the Trinity is a bunch of lies and some say the message in these scriptures has its origin in the Trinity. Not so. It is scriptural and if one’s theology disagrees, then one’s theology needs to change.
Hi Anthony,
I think LU said it right here, “Anthony, i don’t think were adopted, nor was Jesus either, we spimple were given the holy spirit and thereby became Sons of the Living God. Elect yes, God chose to give us his spirit, the same with Jesus also, you are seeing it as all humanity is childern of different parents, but all people are the childern of God because all humanity came from God in the first place. All the earth and everything in it is his and came from him. There is no adoption involved in that, is there, seening we were all created in the image of God and by God in the first place.”
Remember the ancestry given in Luke,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Adoption,
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
What is it that we are inheriting that makes us heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ?
God is incorruptible
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Jesus was corruptible, but the promise given to David was,
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Jesus would be raised up according to the FLESH according to the LOINS of DAVID, his flesh would NOT SEE corruption, but would be changed to incorruptible flesh. It pleased God that in His creation He would design different bodies and the PROMISE was to give that body REDEMPTION, to give it glory, our glory…
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED in incorruption:
People were a witness TO this resurrection, TO Jesus in his incorruptible flesh and then the passage continues onto say, 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
UPON his resurrection he received the PROMISE!!
The glory of Jesus is that he received the adoption of the Holy Spirit and he was made incorruptible, like God is incorruptible.
This is the firstborn, the man that is said to have been MADE both master and Messiah.
Isaac was not Abraham’s firstborn son, but he was CALLED that according to a PROMISE. JUST as the SEED of DAVID is CALLED firstborn according to a PROMISE.
Psalms 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
The FIRST Adam, through his disobedience brought sin and death to all men, he brought a world of sin. Jesus WAS NOT the firstborn to a WORLD of DISOBEDIENCE and SIN. He was the firstborn to a PROMISE to come of the seed of David.
The SECOND Adam, through obedience brought righteousness and life, he is the FIRSTFRUITS of the HOLY SPIRIT, the firstborn OVER ALL of CREATION, as CREATION will be made NEW, and others shall be raised from the dead on the glorious day of his return, and they shall live in a WORLD of RIGHTEOUSNESS of which Jesus is the firstborn of, which was God’s PLAN FROM the beginning, to make MAN into His own image in an image of righteousness and eternal life.
Jodi….That is correct, But LU and Anthony simply do not get it.
Jesus said , ” you are God’s”, yes we belong to God, all earth and everything in it belongs to GOD. The “spirit” of adoption is one thing, but we are another, we are the Elect of God from before the foundations of the earth, “for whom he foreknew, he “predestined” to be made into the image of his son”. just like our brother Jesus, by the same Anointing Spirit, given him.
These people have moved Jesus away from themselves, by changing his human idenity making him different then we are, and they don’t even realize it. They are Antichrists they preach a different JESUS then the one we know, and a different God the Father also.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
This chapter explains the words of Jesus saying before Abraham I am.
Jesus is the “seed” of the PROMISE God gave to Abraham, this was established, as our God is ALL KNOWING and by His powerful word from the beginning before He made the worlds, His plan would come forth. He preached the gospel to Abraham, and that gospel was in his coming seed.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
This is HOW Jesus is BEFORE Abraham. The PROMISE of faith, came before the law, it had been established before Abraham, and would come by his seed. The law was added till the seed should come to whom the promise was made, it was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we may be justified through faith.
“8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
What is the Gospel,
1 Corinthians 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The image of God is having no sin, it is righteousness, of which made Jesus, being a man not worthy of the punishment of a sinful man.
He was APPOINTED an HEIR, he was MADE much better than the angels, he has obtained by an inheritance a more excellent name then the angels. This was NOT something he already had, it was a plan before time began, and it was the ENTIRE purpose that God made the world, for this perfected man, to be the author of eternal life.
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
This is not revealing that Jesus pre-existed, it reveals the PROMISE that God would MAKE the seed of David his firstborn over all of creation. The firstborn here is identified as the man who brought redemption through his blood not in a pre-existing son, this is why in 2 verses later it says firstborn of the dead. Paul is not speaking of Jesus having two different identities, the SPECIFIC identity given throughout this passage is that of the MAN that SHED HIS BLOOD. KNOWING the PROMISE, the GOSPEL that was given to Abraham concerning his seed, the GOSPEL given to David concerning his seed, you would think that would make this chapter CLEAR. You would THINK that the fact that the firstborn in verse 14 is DIRECTLY referred to as the man who shed is blood, that would make it clear that it would be obviously speaking about firstborn of the dead, who is in FACT first among all of a creation, NOT the creation that was not willingly subjected to VANITY, and sin and death, but the creation that was God’s purpose of righteousness and eternal life.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Everything God made before it was made was held in a PROMISE of eternal life for mankind. One man of disobedience and one man of obedience, one man that brought sin and death, and one man that brought righteousness through faith and thus eternal life.
16 For through him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
All things were not created through and for a pre-existing son, but through and for the man that would bring eternal life to mankind. The man said to have inherited and been MADE much better than the angels. Yet another major point Paul makes that so many ignore, that PROVES Jesus did not pre-exist.
Hi T8,
You said “Simply put: God created all through the Word;”
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
This WORD of God was then made flesh in the MAN that would shed his blood and bring the eternal life, who was of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David.
12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. Your IMAGE of Jesus T8 is a false image.
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
What was spoken to the prophets? What was spoken by God to David? That He would make his seed his Son of whom He would be a Father to, whom He would anoint with His Spirit, thus making him a Son, whom He would MAKE a firstborn of to a new creation of righteousness, whom would be MADE greater than the angels.
You said, “God created all through the son of God; Jesus has a name “The Word of God”.”
All things were created for the MAN that would bring eternal life, he would be BORN of God, being given God’s Spirit and thus be a Son, as was promised to David.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted*, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The Son that was SENT was the Son that was born of God at the river, he was sent out to be the WORD of God as he said he speaks that which his Father teaches, and he was also the WORD of God because he was the promised Messiah.
Jesus speaks telling us that it was God that spoke to the prophets not him, as likewise Paul and others spoke.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The prophets received God’s word and spoke God’s word, and in their words from God they spoke of the coming Messiah who would likewise be a prophet. Then that word came to life, the promise by God was fulfilled, the Messiah came, and he too as the prophets said, that he would ALSO speak the words of God. The prophets spoke about a coming prophet.
John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. 15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Hebrews 1:4 BEING MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Jesus was anointed at the river, he was born of God, and those that have been born of God remain without sin. He was the firstbegotten a man without sin, and he was brought into the world again having been raised from the dead, anointed with the Holy Spirit to eternal life being MADE a master the Messiah, the mediator to a new covenant, being anointed above his fellow human beings.
T8 you and others have a huge problem taking a verse and completely denying the surrounding context, and by thus you create lies. You read as if you are completely IGNORANT to the plan and promises of God, and you do not apply those promises, instead you apply a false image of Christ. This DAY I have begotten thee I shall be a Father and he shall be a Son, this day is the anointing at the river, not before the world was created. This Son then was SENT to speak the words of God and perform miracles and become the sacrifice for our redemption. Then we are told AGAIN when he brings this firstbegotten into the world he is given the kingdom of his father David, as was promised.
THE THRONE he receives is that of his father David’s, which is God’s throne because God established it.
2 Samuel 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
1 Kings 9:5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Hi lightenup. God bless. I suppose that your using the nine months as a type. or representation,of the only begotten Son was eternally with His Father. I think we need to take into account, that the perfect equality of the Father and the Son, and the fact that Christ is in very nature God, I do not design to be understood as teaching that the Father was not before the Son. It should not be necessary to guard this point, lest some should think that the Son existed eternally with the Father; yet some go to that extreme, which adds nothing to the dignity of Christ, but rather detracts from the honor due him, since many throw the whole thing away rather than accept a theory so obviously out of harmony with the language of Scripture, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since this is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. I’m using time as a chronological setting. This was before time didnt existed. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ’s personality had a beginning”
1.the Father eternal
2. the Son . begotten (birth)
3. the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of the Father then the Son
4.then the Angles (created)
5. Then Adam (created)
6. Then Adam (fell)
7. Now men and women are birth by there human mam and dad. God bless. Anthony
T8,
This is what was with God in the beginning,
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The image of God is righteousness and eternal life. Jesus was born of God at the river, which kept him without sin, and he was raised to eternal life.
“He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.”
Yes exactly, the man who shed his blood is the word of God, as God promised eternal life and Jesus is the fulfillment of that word.
The word of God is held in the powers of God’s Holy Spirit, if you are going to say that Jesus represents some spirit son who is literally the word of God then you are saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. This is NOT possible, Jesus was born of the Spirit at the river, and he needed that Spirit to speak God’s words, and he needed that Spirit to be raised from the dead.
God used his angels to deliver God’s word, God’s word came through visions and dreams unto the prophets, not by a pre-existing son. The firstborn always references the man Jesus, not a pre-existing son that became Jesus. If you held to the promises of God and used those promises for your understanding you would not be creating a false image of the Christ, the man anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellow human beings, who was MADE greater than the angels.
I will say it again,
He was APPOINTED an HEIR, he was MADE much better than the angels, he has obtained by an inheritance a more excellent name then the angels. This was NOT something he already had, it was a plan before time began, and it was the ENTIRE purpose that God made the world, for this perfected man, to be the author of eternal life.
He didn’t ALREADY have it and then go back to what he was before. God was making a NEW creation, and it would start with making a NEW MAN, the firstfruits of God’s Spirit, this man was begotten by God being given His Spirit without measure so that he could REMAIN without sin, and be raised from the dead being changed from a mortal to an immortal because he was not worthy of death having remained without sin. He became the gory and image of God, which is righteousness and eternal life.
There is a difference.
From us and them. We are birth but humans mam and dad. And our breath of life or God comes through the blood. “There’s life in the blood” literally and spiritually because He she’d His blood at the cross for you and me we can have spiritual life. K God bless.
Hi Anthony,
No another divine being was not born.
Jesus was conceived of Mary and born of her.
He was born again of the Spirit at the Jordan river.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.2cor 5.19
Jodi, You have made dance with delight in the spirit, you are indeed a guiding light here, God is using you to preach the “TRUE” gospel, WHICH DELIGHTS ALL WHO HAVE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN THEM.
May we all here take these words and take them to heart, and delight in them sis, Especially brother T8.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Jodi,
I believe you are confused when you said:
I think LU said it right here, “Anthony, i don’t think were adopted,…
You are quoting what I quoted Gene saying. I completely believe that believers are “adopted sons.” I put up verses that make that crystal clear.
Jodi,
you said:
Isaac was not Abraham’s firstborn son, but he was CALLED that according to a PROMISE.
Do you mean to say that Isaac was called the “only begotten” according to a promise? Maybe you can show me where he is also called the “firstborn” of Abraham. I am not aware of that.
Thanks,
LU
Hi LU,
Why do need to take an intellectual and theoretical approach to how you relate to God and His Son?
Do you not know them and fellowship with them in the one Spirit yet?
Anthony,
Thank you for your response. In order for someone to be begotten, they need to already exist before the begetting. For example, in order for you to be brought out of your house, you have to be in the house beforehand.
Jesus was IN the Father before He was brought out/begotten from the Father, do you agree?
The Son, being eternally within the Father before being begotten from the Father shows that they are equal in essence. The Son was not put to work until after the begetting, it seems. The Father was always able to create and save the creation because of the eternal existence of the Son. The Father lacked/lacks nothing (because He always possessed the Son.)
Isaiah 43:10″You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Jesus was NOT formed as you seem to imply. Jesus always was. The LORD who declared that statement is the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son), together, united in one Spirit, our great God.
Have a great day!
Hi Anthony,
Yalad is the word used in the OT for begotten, it means to bring forth, to be born.
Psalms 2 we see this word used in reference to the seed of David that on a CERTAIN DAY his descendant would be BORN of God.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Also speaking of the seed of David he would be MADE into a firstborn.
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Here is another example of the man of the seed of David being BORN of God of His Spirit.
Galatians 4: 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, BECAUSE he is born of God.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus was tempted as we are, but he REMAINED without sin because God’s Spirit REMAINED in him.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted*, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God did not give a pre-existing son that had been born of God before creation to pose as a man and die on the cross.
God declared on a CERTAIN DAY to the seed of David that He would beget this human with His Spirit, and by that this man would be known as a Son. This Son by the Spirit would be a child of God because he would remain without sin, this makes him the ONLY mortal human to be a Son of God, as he was the only mortal human to remain without sin, having been the ONLY mortal human BORN of God’s Spirit without measure. This Son upon being begotten at the river was then SENT out into the world. This Son God gave over to death and raised him from the dead. Whoever believes in THIS SON has eternal life.
There exists NO scripture that says a pre-existing son would be sent, or that this son was begotten before creation. But what we are told about before creation was that God promised human beings eternal life, and many were witnesses to the fulfillment of this promise.
As said before the MAN Jesus, BORN of God’s Spirit on a certain DAY, who had remained without sin, is the image of God, the image of righteousness. As the image of righteousness he is also the image of Eternal Life, which is likewise the very Image of GOD.
5 Jesus answered,Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Jesus was raised FLESH and BONES, and guess what not all of God’s creatures live by blood, they live by water. There is known an immortal jellyfish that lives through water.
Being baptized with water and receiving God’s Spirit after you have confessed your sins and declare your belief in Christ is a spiritual act that leads you to your future true baptism of eternal life. No person has YET to receive this promise, except for Christ, but those in Christ will receive the promise upon his return. Corruptible flesh is in the blood, immortal flesh is in the water.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Hi LU,
Speaking to the brothers And the sisters of Christ Jesus Paul said in 2 Cor 13
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’
and John said in his first letter to those who share the Spirit of Christ
”and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ’
and in his second letter
”Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son”
So it matters that we abide in the teaching.
Jn 14
‘ If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and My Father will love him,
and we will come to him and make our abode with him’
Hi Nick,
you asked:
Why do need to take an intellectual and theoretical approach to how you relate to God and His Son?
Do you not know them and fellowship with them in the one Spirit yet?
Would you prefer an unintelligent approach, Nick? Wisdom is from God, do you advocate an unwise approach to relating to the Father, Son and Spirit. That would be UNWISE and very unintelligent.
Proverbs 24:5 A wise man is strong, And a man of knowledge increases power.
2 Peter 1 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Col 1:9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Don’t despise intelligence and theoretical thinking about God, Nick. That is called seeking truth. That can lead to wisdom and strength, walking in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, etc.
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