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Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,04:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2012,07:03) Gene,
The only begotten Son, firstborn over all creation, through which creation came and who has the title 'the First and the Last' would have been eternally existent within the Father and begotten from the Father before all things in heaven and on earth came into being.Like the Jews of the first century understood, Jesus was saying God was His Father, thus making Himself equal with God. Like begets like.
If He was just a man, He would certainly be blaspheming with all He claimed to be and what was written about Him. imo.
Take care…
As you say, “Like begets like”.But what you teach is Like IS like.
And if “Like begets like” then one precedes the other. Like Father and Son.
So it appears you have enough understanding to see that you are wrong. If you are only interested in listening to yourself, then study what “Like begets like” means.
And if you truly do that, then you will realise that one is the Original and the other an image of the Original.
Do you know which is which? Have a guess. One is the invisible original and the other is a visible image of the first one. Even if you take a guess, it is a whopping 50% that you get this right. And if you don't then I will give you another guess.
No, t8, I do teach like begets like and always say there is the Father and the Son. I do not teach there are two Fathers. Get your facts right.Realize that like begets like means that both have the same nature and attributes.
Remember your Biology lesson of the two cells. One was the original and the other was within the original yet both were identical in nature and attributes. They were one in nature and attributes.
The one that begat the other is one with the other…'I and the Father are ONE.'
John 10:30
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,13:45) One was the original and the other was within the original …………..
So then there was only ONE original? Who is the “original” God, Kathi? The Father or the Son?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2012,05:14) Gene, Romans 8:29 King James Version
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Mike………And Jesus was also made in our IMAGE to which is the IMage of GOD. Why is it you try so desperately to despell what God said in Genesis for? Whos “IMAGE” does it say He mad us in? Jesus or Gods. Paul was refering to us gaining to the “FULL” Measure and Stature thatJesus gained. Not that Jesu was any different then we are in reguards to being made in the “IMAGE OF GOD” . I can't understand why you and others would want to destory the very words of what God himself said so much of the time instead of trying to put them together Why is that Mike?Many have changed the Image of Jesus into a God and in you case a Little god or angel or what ever. But no where in scriptures is that said. So you set up this Image thing as if Jesus were different then us. Not even able to read where it says it “BEHOVED HIM” to be made like his Brothers. Do you know what the word BEHOVED means Mike? Now ask yojurself why would it Behove Him to be LIKE US in the first place?
This Fase Image you trinitarians and Preexistences set up Jesus to be is Exactly what Paul said about this image of the Man of Sin in 2Ths2 It moves Jesus from his human roots to a Past existence of which you or they have produced no scriptural evidence of. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 01 2012,17:49) I can't understand why you and others would want to destory the very words of what God himself said so much of the time instead of trying to put them together Why is that Mike?
Gene,Do you consider taking ALL of the scriptures into account “destroying the very words of God”?
t8 made some claims straight from Pauls words in Romans 8:29. YOU were disagreeing with what t8 posted, and so I simply showed where t8's claims were DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.
The real question is why YOU always try to find a way to make scripture FIGHT with itself, when there is really peace and harmony between all scriptures.
You do it all the time when discussing pre-existence. We just quote the scriptures that said Jesus had glory with God before the world was created through him, and out you come, like a bolt of lightning, jumping down our throats for QUOTING SCRIPTURE.
Guess what Gene? Jesus WAS a son of man, who was made to be like his brethren in every way. But he was ALSO existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a son of man. These two scriptural points are in HARMONY with each other – yet it is YOU who goes out of your way to try and make those two points fight against each other – as if only ONE of them can be true.
You are doing the same thing right now. YES, it is true that mankind was made in God's image. But it is ALSO EQUALLY TRUE that we are being conformed to the image of GOD'S SON.
Find a way to accept BOTH scriptural truths, brother. Don't make one scripture fight against other scriptures.
peace,
mikeMike………..I understand Jesus had Glory with God before his berth on the earth , i am not question that , what i am questing is the fact that T8 says Jesus was alive at that Time. Having Glory with God as i explained many many many times does not mean you have it now. I could say the same thing, I as a Man Had Glory with God before the world ever existed. (for whom he forknew he presdestined ) so i was preedestined to Glory before i was ever born i had that Glory already by simply being born a Human Being. God has (CROWNED) Me with GLORY and HONOR, a past tense expression because it says Crowned but even though i am Crowned i have not yet recieved it, but the expression is as if i Have already recieved it, get my point Mike? I could not use that to Prove i was alive before i was ever Born now could I, but T8 and you use it as a Proof Jesus was alive with that Glory before he was ever born into existence.
To say you take “ALL” Scripture into consideration is also not true , you both deny many scriptures and twist there meanings. You deny that God alone and by himself created every thing Yet scripture say he did by himself and alone. The word alone means no one was there rigth?, according to the word alone but do you and T8 believe that, NO you don't. But you accuse me of not believing scriptures. You also believe there are many Gods but God said he looked for others Gods and there were none. but do you believe that No.
So don't give me this, i don't take all scriptures into consideration when in fact you people are not taking them into proper context and ignore many of them. Your Doctrines as well As the Doctrines of the trinitarians are nothing more then doctrines of separations that separate Jesus from our “exact” idenity with him. Mike you are beginning to see what I and 2besee are saying, you need to realize what we are saying to you and dump the false teachings of your past . Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth Mike except in the Plan and will of God.
Look Milke I love you brother , but you and T8 both are wrong. Don't just take my word for it go and consider what 2besee is saying IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gen
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2012,21:59) Mike………..I understand Jesus had Glory with God before his berth on the earth , i am not question that , what i am questing is the fact that T8 says Jesus was alive at that Time. Having Glory with God as i explained many many many times does not mean you have it now. I could say the same thing I as a Man Had Glory with God before the world ever existed. (for whom he foreknew he predestined ) so i was predestined to Glory before i was ever born i had that Glory already by simply being born a Human Being. God has (CROWNED) Me with GLORY and HONOR, a past tense expression because it says crowned but even though i am Creowned i have not yet received it, but the expression is as if i Have already received it, get my point Mike? I could not use that to Prove i was alive before i was ever Born now could I, but T8 and you use it as a Proof Jesus was alive with that Glory before he was ever born into existence. To say you take “ALL” Scripture into consideration is also not true , you both deny many scriptures and twist there meanings. You deny that God alone and by himself created every thing Yet scripture say he did by himself and alone. The word alone means no one was there right?, according to the word alone but do you and T8 believe that NO you don't. But you accuse me of not believing scriptures. You also believe there are many Gods but God said he looked for others ods and there were none. but do you believe that No.
So don't give me this i don't take all scriptures into consideration when in fact you people are not taking them into proper context and ignore many of them. Your Doctrines as well As the Doctrines of the trinitarians are nothing more then doctrines of separations that separate Jesus from our “exact” identity with him. Mike you are beginning to see what I and 2b see are saying, you need to realize what we are saying to you and dump the false teachings of you past . Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth Mike except in the Plan and will of God.
Look Milke I love you brother , but you and T8 both are wrong. Don't just take my word for it go and consider what 2besee is saying IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gen
genewe will and never ad Christ identical what ever you call it ;
we are sons of man ;HE HIS SON OF GOD I HOPE YOU CAN SEE HEAR AND UNDERSTAND THAT DIFFERENCE
HE WAS BORN WITHOUT THE SIN OF ADAM ;we on the other hand can not get rid of unless Christ help us to remove it ,I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THAT HIS ABILITY TO DO THING FOR US THAT WE CAN NOT DO NOR FOR OURSELF NEVER MIND FOR ANYONE ELSE ,
NOW HE HIS THE ONLY ONE JESUS CHRIST AND BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,
do you see yourself in his resemblance
tell witch one please you misunderstand scriptures and until you correct that view you are out of the truth so to speak.
Has anyone else here noticed that Ed believes he is specifically mentioned in the bible? I haven't followed the thread, but could someone other than Ed, specify which scriptures he believes points to that conclusion? (Journey perhaps). I'm not looking for a discussion, or to take over this thread, but, I'm not allowed to comment in that thread, so, just wondering which scriptures, if any, he believes applies to him.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2012,09:59) Mike………..I understand Jesus had Glory with God before his berth on the earth , i am not question that , what i am questing is the fact that T8 says Jesus was alive at that Time.
It's hard for someone to “have glory alongside God before the world began” if they weren't even alive at the time, Gene.What you WANT 17:5 to say is, “Glorify me now with the glory YOU'VE BEEN SAVING FOR ME before the world began”.
Unfortunately for you and your doctrine, that simply isn't what the scripture says.
Quote (david @ Dec. 07 2012,18:03) …..just wondering which scriptures, if any, he believes applies to him.
I don't remember the scripture, but it has the Hebrew word “ed” in it, and he claims it refers to him.Why not just ask Ed? He's proud of that scripture, and will happily tell you which one it is.
Quote (david @ Dec. 08 2012,06:03) Has anyone else here noticed that Ed believes he is specifically mentioned in the bible? I haven't followed the thread, but could someone other than Ed, specify which scriptures he believes points to that conclusion? (Journey perhaps). I'm not looking for a discussion, or to take over this thread, but, I'm not allowed to comment in that thread, so, just wondering which scriptures, if any, he believes applies to him.
davidI do not want to say much but my name is in scriptures too;
Pierre means Peter or Cepheus means rock ,but I do not make it a big deal like Edj does ,
if you think that you are of any importance to God or Christ then show it in your true understanding of the truth of God ,and are able to avoid the snares of the evil one ,but he can not show that he has nor possess that truth ,and so the wind blows,
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,09:45) Realize that like begets like means that both have the same nature and attributes.
kathi. Like begetting like is not the same as being the same being.Different beings can have the same nature.
e.g., we are both human beings. But we are not the same being.
The truth is pretty simple isn't it.Although you have been fighting against the idea that there is a difference between identity and nature, in a round about way you have come to this conclusion yourself, but are unable to see it for what it is.
If Jesus shares YHWH nature or came from YHWH and no other, then he is not YHWH, but his son.
And guess what? That is the truth that the Church is built on. That Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah.
Perhaps now you can stop trying to lay another foundation (Binity) and be happy with the one that is already laid. And then you will be able to build on that foundation instead of a faulty foundation that will collapse along with all your works built on top of that.
t8,
Where have I ever said that the Father and the Son are the same 'being?' I said they are two unique persons with the same nature and attributes, one as the Father of the other and both united and eternal as one 'corporate' God while each is God (not in the corporate sense but individual sense) because of their eternal nature and attributes.t8 said:
Quote If Jesus shares YHWH nature or came from YHWH and no other, then he is not YHWH, but his son. And YHWH gave His name to His Son, which means that His Son is YHWH also…not as the Father YHWH but as the Son YHWH. That would be two different theos beings with the name YHWH.
We have been here before.
t8 said:
Quote That is the truth that the Church is built on. That Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. The early church worshiped Jesus as the only begotten God, the Son of God from the unbegotten God and believed in His eternal existence. Get to know your early church history.
t8 said,
Quote Perhaps now you can stop trying to lay another foundation… I haven't laid 'another foundation,' t8. The foundation I agree with happens to be what has been established already in the first century. I sure don't read the stuff you have been claiming lately about Jesus being theos because He was a member of a council of theos and got called 'theos.' Can you show me the early church fathers explaining that which you believe because I have not come across it. So, it seems that you are the one making up your own doctrine.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,21:59) And YHWH gave His name to His Son…………
John 17:11-12
Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are one.While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Kathi,
Are those the scriptures by which you come to your conclusion that Jesus is also named YHWH? (Hint: His name is JESUS.
)MIKE…
We have been over and over with this verse. I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the verse is about the name that was given Him, not about the people. Remember the pronoun 'which' is singular and neuter the same as 'name'…unlike the 'them' which is plural and masculine.If the Greeks didn't substitute the name YHWH for LORD, this would be easy to see.
John 17:11
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2012,12:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2012,09:59) Mike………..I understand Jesus had Glory with God before his berth on the earth , i am not question that , what i am questing is the fact that T8 says Jesus was alive at that Time.
It's hard for someone to “have glory alongside God before the world began” if they weren't even alive at the time, Gene.What you WANT 17:5 to say is, “Glorify me now with the glory YOU'VE BEEN SAVING FOR ME before the world began”.
Unfortunately for you and your doctrine, that simply isn't what the scripture says.
Mike………..The word “With” You is far from saying alongside You. You change the context of what Jesus said by saying it that way. Scripture say Jesus was raised from the dead and received Glory and Honor and all thing were put under Him , but it also say God “Has”, (pasterns statement), put all things under the foot of “MAN” and gave Him (MAN) Glory and Honor, and further it also says, ” in that he has said all thing under the foot of “MAN” there is “NOTHING” that is Not under the Foot of “MAN”.Mike has that glory and honor happened to Man in general yet , No it hasn't, will it happen ?, “YES” it will
So in consideration of what is written about man in “general “, How is Jesus any different then we are? only in this way he is the “First” to have received this Glory and Honor of all thing put under his foot, Just one of Many brothers and sister that will also receive that exact SAME Glory and Honor.
Your doctrines of separating Jesus' Glory and Honor from us is a false teaching. While he is indeed the First to receive that Glory and Honor he certainly is not the Last to receive it. Moving Jesus from his human roots is the biggest LIE ever taught in Christianity and Jesus himself will Abolish that LIE at his return , Just as it say in 2 Th's 2 .
Mike driving a wedge between Jesus and us by making him out to be something different then we are is a the work of Antichrist, it works to destroy not only Jesus' work as a human being but also the work of God “IN” humanity. Why can't you come to see that brother?.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 08 2012,09:52) we are sons of man ;HE HIS SON OF GOD I HOPE YOU CAN SEE HEAR AND UNDERSTAND THAT DIFFERENCE HE WAS BORN WITHOUT THE SIN OF ADAM ;we on the other hand can not get rid of unless Christ help us to remove it ,I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THAT HIS ABILITY TO DO THING FOR US THAT WE CAN NOT DO NOR FOR OURSELF NEVER MIND FOR ANYONE ELSE ,
NOW HE HIS THE ONLY ONE JESUS CHRIST AND BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,
do you see yourself in his resemblance
tell witch one please you misunderstand scriptures and until you correct that view you are out of the truth so to speak.
Terricca…………So you don't beleiv ewhat John Said rigth?Rrethern “NOW” we are the SONS OF GOD, and it does not yet appear what we will be But we know we will be “AS” He is , because we will see him “AS” He is.
Point two , NO one is BORN a SINNER they become Sinners a child is not a sinner, no matter what you falsely preach. A child “BECOMES a SINNER” A child has the “PROPENSITY” for sin but is not BORN a SINNER , if that were the case God could not hild us liable for our sins becasue we would have beeen born that way. Common seens should tell you that Pierre.
But you are right sayon “NOW” Jesus is the ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON of GOD, That is Begotten from MANKIND and raised from the dead to eternal life. The First “BORN” into the KINGDOM of GOD> “AT THIS TIME”> ONE of many brothers and sisters to be born into the kingdom of God
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2012,20:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2012,12:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2012,09:59) Mike………..I understand Jesus had Glory with God before his berth on the earth , i am not question that , what i am questing is the fact that T8 says Jesus was alive at that Time.
It's hard for someone to “have glory alongside God before the world began” if they weren't even alive at the time, Gene.What you WANT 17:5 to say is, “Glorify me now with the glory YOU'VE BEEN SAVING FOR ME before the world began”.
Unfortunately for you and your doctrine, that simply isn't what the scripture says.
Mike………..The word “With” You is far from saying alongside You. You change the context of what Jesus said by saying it that way. Scripture say Jesus was raised from the dead and received Glory and Honor and all thing were put under Him , but it also say God “Has”, (pasterns statement), put all things under the foot of “MAN” and gave Him (MAN) Glory and Honor, and further it also says, ” in that he has said all thing under the foot of “MAN” there is “NOTHING” that is Not under the Foot of “MAN”.Mike has that glory and honor happened to Man in general yet , No it hasn't, will it happen ?, “YES” it will
So in consideration of what is written about man in “general “, How is Jesus any different then we are? only in this way he is the “First” to have received this Glory and Honor of all thing put under his foot, Just one of Many brothers and sister that will also receive that exact SAME Glory and Honor.
Your doctrines of separating Jesus' Glory and Honor from us is a false teaching. While he is indeed the First to receive that Glory and Honor he certainly is not the Last to receive it. Moving Jesus from his human roots is the biggest LIE ever taught in Christianity and Jesus himself will Abolish that LIE at his return , Just as it say in 2 Th's 2 .
Mike driving a wedge between Jesus and us by making him out to be something different then we are is a the work of Antichrist, it works to destroy not only Jesus' work as a human being but also the work of God “IN” humanity. Why can't you come to see that brother?.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
geneQuote Mike………..The word “With” You is far from saying alongside You. You change the context of what Jesus said by saying it that way. Scripture say Jesus was raised from the dead and received Glory and Honor and all thing were put under Him , but it also say God “Has”, (pasterns statement), put all things under the foot of “MAN” and gave Him (MAN) Glory and Honor, and further it also says, ” in that he has said all thing under the foot of “MAN” there is “NOTHING” that is Not under the Foot of “MAN”. Mike has that glory and honor happened to Man in general yet , No it hasn't, will it happen ?, “YES” it will
with an comment like this I REALLY START TO WANDER WHY CHRIST REFUSED SATAN OFFER WEN HE SHOWED HIM ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE EARTH AND WAS READY TO GIVE IT TO HIM IN EXCHANGE OF A LITTLE BEND ;DO YOU UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES OR YOU JUST KICK AT THEM
,Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,23:20) I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the verse is about the name that was given Him, not about the people. Remember the pronoun 'which' is singular and neuter the same as 'name'…unlike the 'them' which is plural and masculine.
Kathi,I am up to Leviticus 24 in the NETBible now – reading every footnote along with the scriptures.
You would be surprised at how many times, in just two and a half books of the Bible, there is a “dilemma” with the plurality or singularity of a verb compared to the noun to which it is linked.
I'm sure I will also come across many such “dilemmas” when I finally make it to the NT.
Also, isn't it you who says a group of people can be referred to using SINGULAR pronouns and such?
And finally, don't you realize if God GAVE the name YHWH to Jesus, it means Jesus didn't have this name from eternity, and was therefore NOT “YHWH THE SON” from eternity?
(Btw, check out the last line of 17:11………“so that they may be one just as we are one.” I understand that to mean “so that they may be one WITH us”.)
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