Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,11:45)

Paladin………What may be good to understand is What are we calling GOD, is God a Person, or a Spirit which can inter a person< and then we need to see what is SPIRIT. Many think GOD is a individual being in fact even Jesus seem to have leads us to believe that also, in some places, but notice this what Jesus said. Pleas notice this Paladin,

Mat 10:19-20…..> But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. Now please Notice Paldin, Verse 20…..> For it is not (YOU) that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks (IN) you.

Now Paladin the Father who is GOD a Spirit does existed (IN) a Person. So when Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) Him tell me was GOD (IN) Jesus actually or not it does appear that the Father was indeed (IN) Jesus (first Person) Speaking through HIM. Then you Add what Thomas also said “My Lord (AND MY GOD”. This also makes it appear GOD was indeed Present (IN) Jesus right? So when Jesus said the Father (IN) Me HE doth the WORKS, that implies a actual first person representation of GOD the Father (IN) Jesus. do you follow where i am coming from brother.

To me Paladin, GOD or Elohim is Not a individual Person He is a Spirit (INTELLECT) with POWER, and can exist in and through his creation. We are told there are SEVEN Spirits of GOD. Revelation shows these Seven Spirit are (IN) Jesus with Powers, and these seven Spirit are described as the Eyes of GOD that exist going to and fro throughout the whole world.

There is also something to consider i think, that is where Jesus said the he spoke about the Father in Proverbs (fictitious illustration) but a time would come when he would show the Father plainly to them. So could it be that the Father who we know as GOD, is actually pure spirit and can in join himself (IN) People via His very spirit presents?. And in this way “GOD MAY BE ALL AND IN YOU ALL”< WOULD BE AN ACTUAL FACT OF LIFE. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

Hi Gene:

I know that you are addressing Paladin with this post, but I just want to give you my understanding of this.

Of course God is a living person. He has a mind, a will, and emotions, a living soul. The first Adam is like him in this respect.

His Spirit is the life that he lives, and so, when Jesus states that God is Spirit, he also states that we must worship him in that same spirit and in truth. The scripture also states that God is love, and how do we know that but by the works of God in and through Jesus and by everything that God has created . That is what Jesus means by stating that God is Spirit.

God has said heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool. God's soul is in heaven, but he can be everywhere by His Spirit. In Psalm 139 David indicates that he can not go anywhere that the Spirit of God is not there.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 27, 2011 at 4:54 am#247019

kerwin

Participant

Gene,

You state that God is in his words as a man is in his words and that much is true as Paul stated:

Quote

2 Corinthians 10 (New International Version)

10 For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.” 11 Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

That is certainly similar to the way I understand God is in us through his Spirit for his intent can be witnessed in the actuions of those who live by the Spirit.

Quote

John 16 (New International Version)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

So I agree the Spirit of God is not literally God but rather is the letter that expresses himself just like Paul expresses himself in his own letters.

May 27, 2011 at 2:09 pm#247044

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 27 2011,09:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,01:56)

To All…………..God who (IS) and (WAS) the logos are one and the same and the (IS) and (WAS) made His appearance (IN) the Flesh of Jesus by way of the CHRISTOS. Why cant we SEE what Thomas saw “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. What [part of and do we not understand here. The Logos who was and is GOD (came to be) or (became) in flesh , the flesh man Jesus. Just as Jesus himself said ” THE FATHER (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene

Gene, how can God be corrupted?

If God is the logos, and the logos can be corrupted, then God can be corrupted.

Paul told the disciples, “For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” [II Cor 2:17]

Paladin……..> Where does it say GOD or His words can be corrupted. If God's Words can be corrupted so can GOD then be. while a man can try to corrupt what God has said , that dos not mean GOD or His WORD can be corrupted. God said his word will not return to him without performing what it was sent out to do. GOd and His Word are connected and are one and the Same , GOD is Spirit and Jesus said Gods words are Spirit and life. IMO

peace and love to you brother……………………….gene

May 27, 2011 at 3:21 pm#247048

Participant

To All………..To me Spirit is what Produces cognate thought and cognate thought produces Words , Words are the result of cognate thoughts, So the Spirit is what creates and produces these thoughts which we express in words. These Spirits can be clean or unclean , but what ever comes out of the vessel is exactly what was put in the vessel. This is the same for GOD as well as Man. A man and his words can not be separated nor can GOD the Father and His word be separated either.If God is (IN) You His Words and Cognate thought is Also or you could never express his (exact) words or his (exact) actions. He must indwell us even as He indwelt Jesus in the exact same way. IMO

peace and love to you all………………………………….gene

May 27, 2011 at 11:40 pm#247071

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2011,01:09)

Quote (Paladin @ May 27 2011,09:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,01:56)

peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene

Gene, how can God be corrupted?

If God is the logos, and the logos can be corrupted, then God can be corrupted.

Paul told the disciples, “For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” [II Cor 2:17]

peace and love to you brother……………………….gene

Right above your question

“For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God:”[II Cor 2:17]

May 27, 2011 at 11:53 pm#247074

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2011,02:21)

peace and love to you all………………………………….gene

Hi Gene:

It is the mind that produces the thoughts. The Holy Spirit reveals those the thoughts of God to humanity either by impelmenting them or communicating his thoughts to us.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 28, 2011 at 12:58 am#247082

Wispring

Participant

Hi Folks,
When God has a word or words within his mind before he expresses them they are uncorrupted. When he communicates them they are uncorrupted. When a human mind recieves them they are uncorrupted. When one human communicates them to another human is the point in the communication process that they can become corrupted. When one person reads the words of God(i.e. scriptures) and re-communicates them to another, they can either knowingly or unknowingly corrupt them. In the case of knowingly, the person is attempting to subvert or go against God's word in order to deceive people. This person will receive his/her reward. In the case of unknowingly, the person may not truly understand the words read in the spirit or intent in which they were given for a number of reasons. One reason is translation of manuscripts by people with a doctrinal agenda that is not God's that bias the written translation one way or another. Another reason is simple lack of understanding of the multiple meanings of some words in scriptures. In the search for truth this can be the most mentally challenging part. The Hebrew language is based on a people/culture who were concrete thinkers and related experiences and lived life with a language that was based on things they could see, taste, touch, and feel. The Hebrew psychology is very action based. They were a very “Actions speak louder than words” people. Even thier abstract concepts were based on concrete reality. This is evidenced by a method Christ Jesus used when speaking. He would used very earthy not-spiritual concepts to explain spiritual concepts. The Greek language is more abstract-thought oriented. This is evidenced by all the philosophers and philosophies and mathematics that have been produced by the Greek culture. I am not saying one culture is superior to the other. What I am saying is that perhaps God left us manuscripts in both languages and cultures so that we could could reap the best of both in our attempts to obey him and do his will,also to grow in knowledge of things both earthly and spiritual in our own lives. While it is true that God's word(s) will not return to him without performing what it(they) were sent out to do(almost like radar), to the best of my understanding, not all of God's word(s) will be received and re-communicated to all people, all the time, with the spirit and intent that God originally sent them. I base this understanding on simple observation of reality, history, and reading of the bible itself which is replete with this phenomena that evidences this mis-communication.
I humbly submit that to my mind the obviousness of the information and concepts I have communicated in this post has been evident to me since my teen years when I started realizing that the world and the history of the world wasn't indentical to the things I was taught from history books in school. It was later that I was introduced to the concept of “The winners are the the ones that write history”. Notice I typed here “write history”, not truly experienced and truly recorded.
In closing, I hope this post communicates how the Logos/rheema of God can be corrupted and at the same time God remains uncorrupted.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

May 28, 2011 at 1:13 am#247085

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 28 2011,10:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2011,02:21)

peace and love to you all………………………………….gene

Hi Gene:

It is the mind that produces the thoughts. The Holy Spirit reveals those the thoughts of God to humanity either by impelmenting them or communicating his thoughts to us.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty………..It says ” LET (THIS MIND) BE (IN) YOU THAT WAS (IN) CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD”.

Eph 2:18….> For through him we both have access by one (Spiirt) unto the Father> Is that not the Holy Spirit called the Spirit (intellect) of Truth that we received from GOD the Father. Sent to us from GOD through Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:9…..> But you are not in the flesh, but (IN) the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:12…..> But if the Spirit of him GOD that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal (BODIES) by HIS Spirit that dwells in you.

Again Marty i see GOD as Present in all who have his Spirit (IN) them Just as Jesus did also. IMO

God and his word are one and the same they are both SPIRIT as Jesus said “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE”.

And again “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, THE FATHER WHO IS (IN) ME (HE) DOES THE WORKS”>

Marty, i might not be fully understanding it right but that is just the way i now see it brother.

peace and love to you and yours Marty.

May 28, 2011 at 2:04 am#247088

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2011,10:40)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2011,01:09)

Quote (Paladin @ May 27 2011,09:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2011,01:56)

peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene

Gene, how can God be corrupted?

If God is the logos, and the logos can be corrupted, then God can be corrupted.

Paul told the disciples, “For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” [II Cor 2:17]

peace and love to you brother……………………….gene

Right above your question

“For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God:”[II Cor 2:17]

Paladin………You are speaking of mans words corrupting what they percieve as God words, i was speaking of GOD'S (TRUE) Word itself being Corrupted, False teachers corrupt what they percieve as meanings of the words of GOD , but that does not truly corrupt GOD nor His Words. God's Word is sharper than a two edge sword separating the bone form the marrow we are told, We are also washed by the words of GOD, Words are formed from Spirits and and if they are from GOD'S Holy Spirit (intellect) they are not corrupted , if they are words from the Spirit (INTELLECT) of this world then they are already corrupted. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

May 28, 2011 at 3:59 am#247093

kerwin

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 28 2011,05:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2011,02:21)

peace and love to you all………………………………….gene

Hi Gene:

It is the mind that produces the thoughts. The Holy Spirit reveals those the thoughts of God to humanity either by impelmenting them or communicating his thoughts to us.

Love in Christ,
Marty

I agree!

May 28, 2011 at 8:58 am#247114

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ May 26 2011,06:56)

Hi Irene and Paladin,

Quote

“There was a man sent from God”

Where did God send this man from?

Irene your answer to this post didn't seem, to my mind, to answer the question. My answer is that God sent this man(John the Baptist) from God's own self. My reasoning is that God has sent many prophets. God communicates to his prophets prophesies. These prophesies include, to the best of my understanding, warnings of wrong-doings and exhortations to cease them and get back to doing things right in accordance with God's will, knowledge of future events, condemnations to those who are being led by that which is evil and probably other things that I am not fully understanding or aware of right now. This I believe God does in his mercy to communcate to the evil/wrong doers that he is not happy with them and if they don't change thier ways will receive a harsh judgement. Christ Jesus also functioned as a prophet of God in his capacity the Son of God. Christ Jesus is also the fulfillment of alot of phrophesy in the OT. All those prophesies related to Christ Jesus were in God in heaven's mind before he communicated them them to the people of the world. They were from heaven. Christ Jesus was aware he was the fulfillment of prophesy, therefore, it is in this sense that he knew he was sent from heaven.

With Love and even more love,
Wispring

I couldn not improve upon that presentation.

May 28, 2011 at 9:25 am#247121

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,12:03)

Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,02:49)

The king is supreme. The kings sends subbordinates, who speak in his stead. The issue is “obey the laws of subbordinates as you the laws of the king.”

Peter's reference is “whether unto the king as supreme or unto governors as tham that are sent.

So like I've been saying: Do you think the use of the word “whether” in this scripture excludes every human institution EXCEPT FOR the two that are specifically mentioned by title – kings and governors?

Or does the use of “whether” mean to obey every human institution INCLUDING kings and governors, but NOT EXCLUDING cops, nuns, judges, and other subordinates of the king?

It has to be one of the other, right?

King as supreme or governors” is not two Mike, it is any number necessary to get the job done. “Governors” is plural, and applies to anyone in authority under a king, in any capacity he appoints them.

May 28, 2011 at 12:49 pm#247132

Participant

Paladin……….Would like to know your understanding of what the word (became) in Greek means, it is my understanding that word should be rendered as (came to be) so to me the Logos who to me is and was GOD the FATHER (came to be) (IN) Jesus by way of the anointing He recieved. To me it is impossible for a “WORD” which is the expression of SPIRIT to ever become flesh, because i see a Word as the expression of intellect or Spirit (intellect) uttered. I have never seen a (flesh word) but i have seen men (in) whom non flesh words derived from Spirits exist. Do you see my point brother. I do agree with you that Jesus did not have his existence until he was born on earth , that we do totally agree on, but i am having trouble separating GOD from HIS Word. Because i see words as being formed by Spirit cognates that are (IN) a person. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

May 28, 2011 at 3:29 pm#247141

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ May 28 2011,03:25)

“Governors” is plural, and applies to anyone in authority under a king, in any capacity he appoints them.

Paladin,

If you do a search of the Greek word used for “governor”, you'll find that it refers to actual Governors, such as Pilate and Felix. It does not apply to the “soldier on the corner beat”, as shown by the following scripture, which distinguishes the soldiers as people OTHER THAN the governor:

Matthew 27:27
Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him.

Plus, you've mentioned “nuns” – are they included in the “governors who have been appointed by the king”?

How about the Pharisees and the Jewish councils of the synagogues? Did Peter include them also in his word “governors”? Because Jesus said to obey them in Matthew 23:3, but then lists them as something OTHER THAN “governors” in Mark 13:9. Plus, they were not commissioned by any king, right?

Paladin, you were correct in your original understanding that Peter was including tax collectors, soldiers, judges and nuns. But you are incorrect that Peter's use of the specific word “governors” included all of these AS governors.

A soldier was not referred to as a “governor” by anyone in the Bible, but we know a soldier is included as part of the “every human institution” that we should subject ourselves to.

Conclusion: The word “whether” did not exclude soldiers and nuns as authorities, even though they were not included in the specific word “governors”.

When Peter says “EVERY HUMAN INSTITUTION”, he includes a slave's master, even though that particular master might not be a king, a governor, or even anyone appointed by a king for any purpose at all.

mike

May 28, 2011 at 4:07 pm#247143

Participant

Hi Gene:

You say:

Marty………..It says ” LET (THIS MIND) BE (IN) YOU THAT WAS (IN) CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD”.

Gene, through this scripture the Apostle Paul is teaching the church about humility and using the life of Jesus to show the church by his example.

This scripture may help for us to understand:

Quote

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We renew our mind through the Word of God, and if the Word of God does not abide in someone, the Holy Spirit will not dwell in them.

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

1 John 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Quote

2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

And so, it is through abiding in the doctrine of Christ, (that spirit of obedience) that we have access to the throne of God, and God dwells in us by His Spirit as our helper and will answer our prayers by His Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 29, 2011 at 3:09 pm#247267

Participant

Marty………….You have a good Point Brother, i do see what you are saying and agree with it. I just believe the Holy Spirit Produces that mind, not just words because if words could do it then Jesus would not have said it has not been given them to understand,the things of the Kingdom of GOD. And He would not has said “NO MAN “CAN” COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM”. God the Father Must Open up our Minds before we can even begin to understand and then accept his words. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

May 29, 2011 at 6:24 pm#247287

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ May 25 2011,03:17)

Written…
Egeneto anthrwpos apestalmenos para theou…

Translated…
There was a man sent from God…

If Mike wants to change the scriptures to read

(Mike's translatin)
There was a man sent by God…

I cannot correct you for you do not take correction too well.

Hi Paladin,

Do you really want to go down this road?

Luke 1:45 NASB ©
“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

This is the word “para” also, Paladin. You'll notice that some translations render it as “from the Lord” and others as “by the Lord”. There are many more scriptures I could post where “para” is translated as “by”.

So will you still insist that John 1:6 could not have been referring to someone who was sent BY God?

Apostolic Bible Polyglot Interlinear
1:6 There existed a man being sent by God, the name to him — John.

How about now?

mike

May 29, 2011 at 9:20 pm#247305

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 30 2011,02:09)

Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

Hi Gene:

The way that you are stating this you would be making God a respector of persons, and no, He is not. The gospel is preached to every creature, and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Of course, the natural man does not understand the Word of God until he is converted, and God becomes his Father by His Spirit and begins to open up his understanding of the scriptures. The Holy Spirit reveals the thoughts of God to humanity. (1 Co 2:

And Jesus explains the statement that he made about “no man can come to the Father, except the Spirit draw him” by the following scriptures:

John 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 30, 2011 at 4:36 am#247327

Wispring

Participant

Hi Paladin and Mike,
I have been doing some research on the use of the word para. While it is true that in english the words from and by can mean essentially the same thing, in greek, the “from” meaning is a particular point of departure and the “by” is a frame of reference that means “close to” in physical reality when referring to things in physical reality or on account of in casual(less formal) use.

Quote

a primary preposition;

properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal (on account of)…by, in the sight of, than, (there-)fore, with. In compounds it retains the same variety of application.

This is from my ISA program strong's database. What I am understanding is that the word “from” is used in the genetive case. At or in in the dative case. By in the accusative case.
I will readily admit I am an ultra-beginner in Greek. That being said do you think I am understanding the english in this strong's explanation of how the word para is used in greek and translated to english?

With Love and love,
Wispring

May 30, 2011 at 9:49 am#247342