Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 21 2011,03:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:15) Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25) In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.” Hi Paladin, I don't really see the difference between the two explanations.  You are still saying the Logos WAS “the same person as God”, but then became “not God”, which is something God cannot do.  But if the Word WAS GOD, then it could not become “not God”, right? Wrong! Does John tell us “the logos was God?” Yes he does. Does John tells us “the logos became flesh?” Yes he does. Is flesh “not God?” By every standard. Can the logos, which was God, become “not God?” John says it did. your argument is not with me, Mike, it is with the Apostle John.

Hi Paladin,

So now you're changing your doctrine yet again?  First you clearly said that God cannot become “not God”.  And when asked for clarification, you are now saying that God CAN become “not God”, and that I'M arguing with scriptures.  

I'm getting more confused with each post you make, Paladin.  Your newest doctrine aligns very well with the trinity doctrine, which claims that God Himself became flesh.  It seems that, in your extreme effort to form your doctrine around whatever you think debunks the trinity the best, you've ironically ended up claiming the exact same thing they claim – that God Himself became flesh and dwelled among us.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 21 2011,03:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:00) Perhaps you could try my template and break it down line for line like I asked Marty to do? I don't even know what that means.

Paladin,

Here's the “template”, filled in with your answers for all but the last line.  Just fill in the last line for me, please.

6Who, being in the form of God:  While he was a human being

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped:  While he was a human being

7but emptied himself:  While he was a human being

taking the form of a servant:  While he was a human being

and was made in human likeness:  While he was a ?   (Fill in the question mark)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2011,18:04)

I do not pretend to understand all that defines God, Gene, I only know in the beginning, the logos was with God, and the logos was God, and the logos became flesh, as described by Paul in Gal, I and II Corinthians, Collosians, and by John in John's epistles and gospel.

The logos wasn't THE god from 1:1b that he was WITH, Paladin.  The person of God cannot be WITH the person of God.  John 1:1 explains how the Logos, himself a god (mighty one), was with THE God in the beginning.

Even the Trinitarians acknowledge that 1:1b prohibits the Logos from being the God he was WITH:
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”);  (From the 25 Trinitarian scholars of NETNotes)

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:36)

Quote (Paladin @ May 21 2011,03:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:00) Perhaps you could try my template and break it down line for line like I asked Marty to do? I don't even know what that means. Paladin, Here's the “template”, filled in with your answers for all but the last line.  Just fill in the last line for me, please. 6Who, being in the form of God:  While he was a human being did not consider equality with God something to be grasped:  While he was a human being 7but emptied himself:  While he was a human being taking the form of a servant:  While he was a human being and was made in human likeness:  While he was a ?   (Fill in the question mark)

Hi Mike:

Do you know any other human being that is also God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ and by his virtue of his position in the body of Christ was in the “Form of God”?

Maybe, this will give you a clue as to what it meant by your last question and you can fill in the blank yourself.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 21 2011,21:01)

Hi Mike: Do you know any other human being that is also God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ and by his virtue of his position in the body of Christ was in the “Form of God”?

But he was in this “form of God” while he was a human, right? So how then was he MADE INTO a human after that? And by who? Who exactly made him in the likeness of a human being?

[terraricca]

Marty

NO;it is MAN ; but how can a man be in the form of God?

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,14:53)

Quote (942767 @ May 21 2011,21:01) Hi Mike: Do you know any other human being that is also God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ and by his virtue of his position in the body of Christ was in the “Form of God”? But he was in this “form of God” while he was a human, right?  So how then was he MADE INTO a human after that?  And by who?  Who exactly made him in the likeness of a human being?

Hi Mike:

Yes, he was human but he was not born of the sperm of man like the rest of humanity, and so, your last question is answered is that he sought to make no distinction between hisself and we who were born of the sperm of man and were by the nature we had acquired were sinners separated from God through the transgressions of God's eternal law.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Mark 2:16
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

Hebrews

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ May 22 2011,10:18)

… God is spirit… How can you separate God-spirit from the spirit of God? You can't Yet, God can, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh” he said in Joel 2:28, and Acts 2 tells us “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh.

Paladin……….That is my point if God is Spirit which we both know he is,  and He pours forth His spirit (INTO) a Person, then GOD Himself is in that Person by his very Spirit that is being poured forth, and as a result that person will IMAGE or Reflect Him. God did not create us in his image at the time of creation, but the Hebrew text say “Is creating us into his image” showing a ongoing process taking place in us all. I have said many times before GOD lives Vicariously (IN) his creation, you might say he is the life of his creation, every attribute acted out by his creatures is God showing us himself. Spirit is the intellect of GOD abiding in all Creation from a one celled creature to a giant whale Gods Spirits are there. These are the Seven Spirit of God that go to and fro throughout all the earth, they are in and operating (IN) the Creation of God. God is the very life of his creation. IMO

Remember brother where it say ,”do not say who shall go up to heaven and bring  his word Down or who shall go down and bring the word up”> What was the response , ” it is neigh unto you in your heart and in you mouth.  Another scripture say he is a very present help.
Remember Jesus said the Father was With Him and He was (IN) him.  I believe if God were to retract his presents from his creation all would die.  

Maybe this will help to see my point, Deu 30:11 ……>  For this commandment which I command you this day , it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off. 12…> It is not in heaven, that you should say, who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13…> Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it and do it? Now notice Paladin, 14……> But the word is very nigh unto you , in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.  Now this is the way God laid it out to those Isrealites but what happened they failed . Because of their stony Faithless hearts they did not recieve it into them, But God said later He would take out of them the stony heart and give them hearts of flesh (soft hearts) and (HE) would write his Law in there inward Parts. Notice who was going to do it, not a separate Logos but GOD himself who (IS) the LOGOS  would do it.

To me Paladin , GOD was truly (IN) Jesus  using His body as a Temple of His presents, Cohabiting that body with Jesus. I also believe that is also true with all of His Saints, God is right there present with them not through just  Words but by Spirit presence.  God and his Words are one and the same existence. It is not Jesus who is in Us but GOD who is in Jesus and in all Saints by way of the ANOINTING SPIRIT (HOLY SPIRIT) OR INTELLECT FROM GOD.  Our bodies are actual Temples where He can Dwell , as Paul said remember , Know you not that your Bodies are the temples of the LIVING GOD.  I believe that to be true. IMO

Another point in passing, the Word was before GOD in the John 1:1 , notice John say (IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD) another words the intellect that WAS GOD,  uttered let there be light. Therefore God has exalted his WORD above all HIS Names as you have brought out before. Why because GOD word (IS) the very expression of Who and What he is. GOD and HIS Words cannot be separated no more then you or i can be separated from our words.   IMO

I really believe God the Father was truly (IN) Jesus  Paladin, Not just by word but by presence.  Remember “IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER” BECAUSE THE FATHER WHO IS (IN) ME HE DOES THE WORKS”> I also believe God and His word are one and the same thing, the same as a man and his words are one and the same thing. They can not be separated NO MORE THAN A THOUGHT CAN BE SEPARATED FROM A MANS SELF. I know you can write a thought down and hand it to a person, but while that may convey it to that person it does not put it into his heart and mind because he can recieve it or reject it, But GOD can directly put it into our minds and hearts, and as the heart speaks forth what is (IN) it is showing Gods presents (IN) it, “THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND (IN) YOU ALL”. This is a direct involvement in a person not just abstract words. IMO

Love and peace to you and yours brother…………………..gene

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,03:05)

Paladin!  First I will continue praying for you.   My Husband too went through radiation.  It makes a person rather weak.  But He is fine now, no more Cancer.   Now, When you say that Rev. 19 does speak of Jesus, then why don't you believe it is Jesus in John 1:1  He is the firstborn of the death, the Scripture in Col. 1:18 tells us so….Right??? John 1:14 is when The Word of God became flesh. Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   Like Rev. 19, John 1:14  cannot be any other being, as far as I can see it.??..I believe God is a title and so is The Word of God…… Both God and The Word of God have a name…. Quote Quote Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy. Why is this scripture the firstborn from the death?  It doesn't say that…..and ne The only Scripture that I know besides Hebrew 12 is Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I don't believe that Col, and Rev. is the firstborn from the death, because it doesn't say that. Please take a look in the Preexisting Debate tread whar t8 wrote.  It is a long Article….t8  believes Jesus preexisted… Peace Irene

Because John makes the connection in Rev, when he tells us Jesus is given a new name, then tells us what it is.

But 27 years later, when he writes his gospel, John makes no such connection.

In the meantime, Paul has been defining the logos of God for us, for 48 years.

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,03:05)

Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy.

Why is this scripture the firstborn from the death?  It doesn't say that…..and ne
The only Scripture that I know besides Hebrew 12 is

Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I don't believe that Col, and Rev. is the firstborn from the death, because it doesn't say that. Please take a look in the Preexisting Debate tread
whar t8 wrote.  It is a long Article….t8  believes Jesus preexisted…
Peace Irene[/quote]

The church of the firstborn is a reference to those who are born again from the dead, by baptism in a figure, and by resurrection in a final accounting.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,14:53)

This is a new question I've never asked before Paladin.  I've seen where you belittled Irene for not knowing the meaning of “whether”.

That is a direct lie Mike. Do not assign such nonsense to me. I never “belittle” anyone for not knowing a thing. Just because I question someone for not acknowledgeing something I have posted to them, I am not “belittleing” anyone for anything.

If Irens thinks I have made her look small because of something I hav eposted, let her speak for herself.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,14:53)

Please put your money where your mouth is and answer a simple question DIRECTLY, because listing 100 scriptures with the word “whether” is not an answer to my very specific question.

Yes! It is, Mike. I have shown you 180 versesall directly tied to God's own application of “Whether” ans asked you to point to one verse where “whether” is not used to indicate a choice between options.

THAT will answer your question, Mike.

Quote

And rearranging the wording to make “AS” be “OR” is not an answer to my question either.

Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean they are not answered Mike. I already explained to you how “as” and “or” are corretly applie din my post in question. I do not intend to make a carreer out of it.

Quote

Nor is saying, “The posts are there, let the readers decide”.

It is unless you delete the posts.

Paladin, is Peter EXCLUDING all other authorities EXCEPT FOR kings and governors by his use of the word “whether”?  YES or NO?

Yes! since it is the king who appoints the governors, how can there possibly be any other options? Peter himself excludes all others when he says ” Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him…(the king)“

Peter is saying whether the lawmaker is the kings, who is supreme, or whether it is a lesser lawmaker sent by thqt king, obey the laws.

[quopte] All that is required is a simple one word answer.  We both know the answer, don't we?  And we both know what answering my question will do to your claim about Col 1:16, don't we? [/quote]

Well one of us does Mike, that's why you are fighting the simple truth so hard, trying to change God';s use of “whether” into arbitrary options that include many choices, instead of two. It doesn't work with me Mike, so quit trying.

Quote

Is that why you won't answer in a direct manner?  Do you think you're fooling people here any more than Marty is fooling anyone with his refusal (inabililty) to break down Phil 2 line by line?

What's your easoning there Mike? I broke down Phil two 5 thru 8 and no one disputed it. Are you now taking the positon that everyone that disagrees with you must repeat each other's work? Good luck with that one.

Quote

I hope Tim Kraft is paying attention.  I hope he can see why I get to be how I am.  Come on guys, we're supposedly discussing scriptural truths here, right?  How can we do that if you guys won't answer the hard scriptural questions?

Because those aren't “scripturally hard questions?” Those are Mike questions designed to make the reader think scripture
allows exceptions to every rule.

Greek: This word means this.

Mike: Yes but it can include that, right?

It Doesn't work Mike. I have shown you every scripture in the bible tha tutilizes the word “whether” and without exception, it always references a choice between two options, one to the exclusion of the other; or between three or four, one to the exclusion of the other three. It remains consistantly a matter of a choice of one, not selection of a cataloge page of options.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:15)

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.”

Hi Paladin,

I don't really see the difference between the two explanations. You are still saying the Logos WAS “the same person as God”, but then became “not God”, which is something God cannot do. But if the Word WAS GOD, then it could not become “not God”, right?

Wrong!

Try again Mike.

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.”

I said, the logos was theon, [Greek form of direct object of the preposition (“was”). I never said anything about “The logos was the same person as God.” That is your interpretaion of my words.

The reason for this Mike, is because there is and has been for two thousand years, a question as to what the difference between “ton theon” and “theos” is; whether one is the person of God and the other is an attribute of God. Articulation is the differentiating term.

I don't know how familiar you are with “equalizing verbs” my friend, but when John uses equalizing verbs to tel us “ho logos was with ton theon” he is telling us that ton theon was equally with ho logos; and when John tells us theos was ho logos, he is telling us there is no equality between the two, ho logos, and theos. The lack of the article for theos removes any semblance of equality between the two, even though
“was” is an equalizing verb.

The use of “Equalizing verbs” does nothing toward establishing the truth or non-truth of a statement, it is simply a tool of grammar, not a tool for establishing truth.

I can offer you an equalizing verb by saying “It is true that The Grandmother was The Grandfather” which equalizers Grandmother and Grandfather, but does nothing toward establishiing any modicum of truth for the statement; even though the statement is an assertion of truth. That doesn't make it truth.

When you state that “The logos was the same person as God” you are inserting doctrine not found in John's statement of truth. Rather, you are inserting your own assertions of truth into John's statement.

I could get into the value of truth statements, and eqalizing verbs, as well as into Lexical Contextual Issues and John 1:1,. but unless you know what I am talking about, it would only serve to make me look like a pompous donkey.

If you assert you are knowledgeable in those areas, I will be glad to discuss them with you, otherwise, suffice it to say the Greek of John 1:1 does not say anything about God's person. And it is still debated among scholars as to whether it deals with God's attributes, or his person.

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

“The logos became flesh” once more, each and every time a saint of God emulates the Christ, both in form and in behaviour, conforms to that template provided by God (who gave us the template, his only begotten son),

Quote

Paladin, this particular post was humble and respectable.

Unless T8 offers classes in arbitratin humility and arrogance, I would have to say, your characterization of “this post” being
“humble and respectable” appears to me to be rather arrogant and high minded. You are the moderator of a board, Mike, not the arbiter of humility. Nor, yet the arbiter of respectability.

Please do not assign your evaluations of humility and respectability to any more of my posts. I consider them all to be in that category. You have just told me I am wrong about several hundred posts, and I doubt you would recognize humility if you saw it, because of your one statement.

I have considered all of your posts to be humble and respectable, until you posted this arrogance to me. I consider all the posts on the board to be of the same quality of effort to share knowledge with those with whom we disagree, but for you to tell me this one post is humble, …..

I just don't know how to get through to you mike…

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2011,11:04)

Quote (Paladin @ May 22 2011,17:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2011,02:54) Paladin………Brother……..Thanks for the post to Mike explaining the Logos personified in the Flesh man Jesus i agree with that , but here is my understanding , A Logos or WORD can only exist (IN) the Mind of a person right?  So we must ask,  HOW does that WORD Exist (IN) the mind of that person?,  was it by reading it , or by Spirit revealing (POWERS) present (IN) that Person. Jesus as Peter who he (thought) he was , Peter responded thou are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responds blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto you but my Father who in in Heaven has revealed it unto you, then he proceed to tell him that was the POWER he was going to build the Church on. It was the Power of God to reveal into the Mind of Man the thing of GOD. The meaning of word to me is intelligent utterance. but that meaning does not give the source the intellect comes from it just says it is expressed thought, through word, as in the case of The Spirit of America you menationed that is not a Word it is a SPIRIT, is it not, Do you See my point brother? I still believe GOD the FATHER was actually (IN) Jesus Causing Him to do  and say the things he did. If we are going to separate GOD from Jesus . WE then must deny what Jesus said I.E,  “the farther who is (IN) Me (HE) Does the works”  and again “Believe you not that the Father (IS IN) Me Thomas , if you  believe not then believe in the miracles.  Notice Jesus was not implying just the words or LOGOS but also the very presents of GOD the FATHER. Then Thomas finely Got it , and responded “MY Lord (AND) My GOD. I have personally had God speak first person through my mouth , i have post this here in the past, I did not even think of what came out of my mouth and it completely confounded the person i was addressing it to, it just sprang forth as i utter it. Tha twas not me speaking But GOD through Me. Your understanding is definitely good and i do agree with most of what you are saying , but i still believe you can not separate the Word of GOD from the SPIRIT (intellect) of GOD and His actual presents (IN) Jesus and all true Saints.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………..gene Gene, think for a moment… God is spirit… How can you separate God-spirit from the spirit of God? You can't Yet, God can, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh” he said in Joel 2:28, and Acts 2 tells us “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh….” I do not pretend to understand all that defines God, Gene, I only know in the beginning, the logos was with God, and the logos was God, and the logos became flesh, as described by Paul in Gal, I and II Corinthians, Collosians, and by John in John's epistles and gospel. If you can  understand how God's logos can be with God and be God, and become flesh, you will know all that I know. It might help to remember “word” is just one translation out of many, which might not actually apply in John 1. Communication or even concept might be closer to what John is saying. And if you can understand how God who is spirit, can pour forth of his spirit upon all flehs, you will understand what I understand. To explain beyond what scripture says, I cannot do. Interesting questions though. Paladin your explanation is a good try,and it could be true ,but I see you deny God as a being ,with a soul,and feelings ,and also ears and see,just like us,(not flesh) so sure God is spirit just as men are flesh,but both are beings the WORD OF GOD (Christ) also a being and also a spirit just as all the angels that God created, but all have thoughts but only God as true thoughts and will for all his creation,and this truth and will is written in the scriptures so that we can absorb those truth and so do his will and be one with his spirit and our spirit (thoughts) Jesus came from his father and talked the words that his father wanted us to know ,this is what we also should do , follow those  words because that is what the spirit of God is . Pierre

Wrong, my friend, I see God as he reveals himself in his writings – i.e., he has heart and soul, hands, feet, arms, eyes, ears, etc, and sings. None of which changes the fact hs is spirit.

Look, my friend, God is the real. He is spirit, with spirit hands, spirit feet, spirit ears and eyse, and etc.

We are imitations, made in his image, in flesh. Just because we consider ourselves to be the real, does not make it so. We are the image of the real.

As ffor God's word existing only in the mind of a person, please explain to me then, what is the scripture? Is that only in my mind? Does my mind see it precisely as your mind does?

Both logos and reema are found in scripture. logos can be corrupted, because it warps concepts; reema can be accepted or rejected, because it is a written record of words telling about things that are understood in concepts. Niether are “only in our minds.”

When God began his creative effort, and spoke into existance all that ther eis, there was no ear to hear, yet the logos was real, and so also was the reema; and some things are written in heaven. So God's word is not just in the hearts of men. When God spoke and a berar came forth and killed according tohis word, what man had that in his mind?

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:17)

Quote (Paladin @ May 21 2011,03:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:15) Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25) In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.” Hi Paladin, I don't really see the difference between the two explanations.  You are still saying the Logos WAS “the same person as God”, but then became “not God”, which is something God cannot do.  But if the Word WAS GOD, then it could not become “not God”, right? Wrong! Does John tell us “the logos was God?” Yes he does. Does John tells us “the logos became flesh?” Yes he does. Is flesh “not God?” By every standard. Can the logos, which was God, become “not God?” John says it did. your argument is not with me, Mike, it is with the Apostle John. Hi Paladin, So now you're changing your doctrine yet again?  First you clearly said that God cannot become “not God”.  And when asked for clarification, you are now saying that God CAN become “not God”, and that I'M arguing with scriptures.   I'm getting more confused with each post you make, Paladin.  Your newest doctrine aligns very well with the trinity doctrine, which claims that God Himself became flesh.  It seems that, in your extreme effort to form your doctrine around whatever you think debunks the trinity the best, you've ironically ended up claiming the exact same thing they claim – that God Himself became flesh and dwelled among us.

No Mike, It is YOU who are making changes to what I said.

I said the logos which was God, became not God. I did not say God became not God. Stop trying to confuse the readers.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:36)

Quote (Paladin @ May 21 2011,03:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:00) Perhaps you could try my template and break it down line for line like I asked Marty to do? I don't even know what that means. Paladin, Here's the “template”, filled in with your answers for all but the last line.  Just fill in the last line for me, please. 6Who, being in the form of God:  While he was a human being did not consider equality with God something to be grasped:  While he was a human being 7but emptied himself:  While he was a human being taking the form of a servant:  While he was a human being and was made in human likeness:  While he was a ?   (Fill in the question mark)

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”

Perhaps you missed this from an earlier post:
[page 108/ Post #3]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

This is what the scripture states: 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

<!–QuoteBegin–Mike]No+actually…………THIS is what the scripture states:

Quote (Mike’>No @ actually…………THIS is what the scripture states: ForthereisoneGodandonemediatorbetweenGodandmankind,themanChristJesuswhogavehimselfasaransomforall/>ItissayingthattheonewhoNOWmediatesbetweenusandGodWASoncethemanwhogavehimselfasaransomforall/>ThatisnotscriptureMike,thatispuredoctrinalbiasedrendingofscripturetopromoteapointofview.“Man”isanoun;“mankind”isan/>1Timothy2:5says“ForthereisoneGod,andonemediatorbetweenGodandmen,themanChrist/>andtheGreekusesanthrwpwnandanthrwposXristos/>anthrwpwnisthegenitivemasculinepluralformofanthrwpos;/>anthrwposisthenominativemasculinesingularformofanthrwpos;bothanthrwposandanthrwpwnaremasculine/>Theword“mankind,”amasculineadjective,isfoundseveralplacesinthenewtestament,andcomesfromtheGreek/>anthrwpinos/>Acts17:25“Neitherisworshippedwith[men's class="bbcode-color"> hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;” [anthrwpinwn = the genitive feminine plural form of anthrwpinos] Rom 6:19 “I speak after the manner of [men] because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.” [anthrwpinon = adverb form of anthrwpinos] 1 Cor 2:13 “Which things also we speak, not in the words which [man's] wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” [anthrwpinees = genitive feminine singular adjective] 1 Cor 4:3 “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of [man's] judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.”[anthrwpinees = genitive feminine singular adjective] 1 Cor 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to [man]: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” [anthrwpinos = nominative masculine singular form of anthrwpinos] James 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of [mankind]: {mankind: Gr. (Adjective) nature of man} [anthrwpinee = dative feminine singular form of anthrwpinos] 1 Pet 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of [man] for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [anthrwpinee = dative feminine singular form of anthrwpinos] This is the grammatic application of the Greek. Your application is the doctrinal application of the doctrine.

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 23 2011,01:32)

[/quote] God did not create us in his image at the time of creation, but the Hebrew text say “Is creating us into his image” showing a ongoing process taking place in us all.

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God [indicative aorist active – created] man, in the likeness of God [indicative aorist active -made] he him; 2 Male and female [indicative aorist active – created] he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were [indicative aorist active -created].” [Gen 5:1-2]

You possibly should rethink this one Gene, my friend.

[Pastry]

Quote (Paladin @ May 23 2011,08:56)

Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,03:05) Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy. Why is this scripture the firstborn from the death?  It doesn't say that…..and ne The only Scripture that I know besides Hebrew 12 is Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I don't believe that Col, and Rev. is the firstborn from the death, because it doesn't say that. Please take a look in the Preexisting Debate tread whar t8 wrote.  It is a long Article….t8  believes Jesus preexisted… Peace Irene

The church of the firstborn is a reference to those who are born again from the dead, by baptism in a figure, and by resurrection in a final accounting.[/quote]

Paladin!  We agree that Col. 1:18, but Col. 1;15 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation, like Rev. #:14.
Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

And then God created everything else through Jesus

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Now to The Word of God.  

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

verse 14 explains that Jesus was The Word of God before  As you say, God gave Him a new name…

There is no doubt in my mind that John is talking about Jesus in John 1:1-14.

Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Paladin

Quote

Wrong, my friend, I see God as he reveals himself in his writings – i.e., he has heart and soul, hands, feet, arms, eyes, ears, etc, and sings. None of which changes the fact hs is spirit. Look, my friend, God is the real. He is spirit, with spirit hands, spirit feet, spirit ears and eyse, and etc. We are imitations, made in his image, in flesh. Just because we consider ourselves to be the real, does not make it so. We are the image of the real. As ffor God's word existing only in the mind of a person, please explain to me then, what is the scripture? Is that only in my mind? Does my mind see it precisely as your mind does? Both logos and reema are found in scripture. logos can be corrupted, because it warps concepts; reema can be accepted or rejected, because it is a written record of words telling about things that are understood in concepts. Niether are “only in our minds.” When God began his creative effort, and spoke into existance all that ther eis, there was no ear to hear, yet the logos was real, and so also was the reema; and some things are written in heaven. So God's word is not just in the hearts of men. When God spoke and a berar came forth and killed according tohis word, what man had that in his mind?

you are saying that i am wrong again ,it seems that only you understand Gods word,but it seems that we have to believe your way of seeing things and that would be a blessing for us ,and this without showing a scripture to back up your vindication .

you have lost me ,because you force me to learn Greek,and you believe that this would do the truck,

your opinion on your views are not supported by scriptures at the least not all of it,

Quote

Look, my friend, God is the real. He is spirit, with spirit hands, spirit feet, spirit ears and eyes, and etc. We are imitations, made in his image, in flesh. Just because we consider ourselves to be the real, does not make it so. We are the image of the real

where does it say that men creation is an imitation ;?

is the image means imitation??

so that we are mic mic like an ape imitates his master all Gods jesthers ?

Quote

When God began his creative effort, and spoke into existance all that ther eis, there was no ear to hear

Ps 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear?
Does he who formed the eye not see?

I wander what he looks like your god?

Pierre

[kerwin]

Paladin,

From what I understand the common Greek words “quen” and “qeov” in John 1:1 are both translated to the word “god” in English.  The endings show what part of speech they are.  I am curious to discover if each word is singular or plural and whether it is a subject, object, or what.  Can either use be translated “a god” instead of “God”?

You also mention John 1:14 in your discussion with Mike which has the common Greek word “egeneto” in it.   To my understanding that word can be translated to the word “joined”  so that John may have been teaching that The Word joined flesh which is just another way of writing the word dwelled in flesh.  Is their a flaw in this understanding and if so what is it?

[Author]

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