Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Paladin]

Quote (Wispring @ May 20 2011,17:18)

I hope Paladin is OK.

Thank you for that, “W.”

I am having a bad time with radiation therapy.

I do not always have the time to interact with the posters on the board, and miss the exchange of ideas, But I am still trying to find a way to “say it” so others on the board will understand it. And it is not their understanding I find fault with, it is my inability to find a way to say it that frustrates me so.

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 20 2011,18:45)

Quote (Wispring @ May 20 2011,17:18) I hope Paladin is OK. Yes, I second that….. Have you ever gotten a personal Message from Paldin?  If so, you could send Him an e-mail…..I will pray for Him tonight……Peace Irene

Thanks Irene. I am still hanging in there, trying to find a way to say it so others can understand it.

Grace and Hope, Irene, Hope and Grace.

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 20 2011,15:21)

There are three Scriptures that shows Jesus was createde in Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

All men are created in the image of God and are the image of God. Since God is invisible at all times, there is no significance to being the image of the invisible God, over being the image of God. “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:”  

Jesus is special in his own right, and therefore the authors of scripture find ways by inspiration, to say things of him that are said differently than what is said about other men, but that doe snot make him the image of God differently than are all men.

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy.

Quote

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Again, this is correct. Jesus is the beginning of God's creation of resurrected beings; the creation of God. Or do you know of resurrected beings that are not of the creation of God?

Quote

Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God.  Then through Jesus God created all.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Jesus is the beginning of the creation of resurrected beings, and he is the author of the new creation, because he showed the way.

Quote

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

Still cannot comprehend the use of “whether,” Irene?

Quote

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

How many times must I show it to you Irene, before you see it?

John says the same thing here – “John 1:3 All things egeneto [became] by him; and without him not any thing egeneto [became] that gegonen [has become]” [John 1:3] That Paul says here – “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things gegonen [are become] new.” [II Cor 5:17] John uses the exact same form of the exact same word Paul used [gegonen].

Until you comprehend this amazing turht, you will not understand any other aspect of it Irene.

God be with you in your study of this important concept.

God's grace and Hope help you in this study

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2011,14:44)

Quote (Paladin @ May 17 2011,05:53) Ho logos was with ton theon, and was theos. Theon and theos are one and the same. Ton Theon is the direct object of “with.” Theos is the predicate nominative of the subject “ho logos.” The importance of this is found in the fact that no verse says “ho logos is theos;” the form of the verb is critical here Mike, because the logos changed by becoming flesh, while theos did not. I'm desparately trying to make sense of what you're saying so I can learn…………but it's confusing to me. So the Word WAS the God he was WITH?  How can God be WITH God? And though they are ONE and the same, you claim that one of THEM changed while the other of THEM didn't?  How can ONE be a THEM? I don't get it yet.

Mike, I must give credit where credit is due. I was satisfied with my response to you till you continued to ask this question. I have been re-reading my responses to you and realized I have been trapped by those same scholars' argument I renounced years ago.

Here is the truth of it -The key to understanding how the logos could both be with God, and be God, yet not be God, is found in John's use of the time-word “was” instead of another time-word “is.”

In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.”

But when God developes a concept, and gives it a name, then puts it into practice, when it developes just as he designed it to do, it becomes what we know as a “personification of his lconcept; i.e., a personification of his logos;” and “The logos became flesh” once more, each and every time a saint of God emulates the Christ, both in form and in behaviour, conforms to that template provided by God (who gave us the template, his only begotten son), we personify that logos of God yet again.

God sent his son to serve as a template for man. When we conform to the form of the template, we resemble his son. When we conform to the behaviour of the template, we emulate his son, and when people see us, they do not recognize us, they recognize the son of God whom we emulate. That proccess is given a name “The Logos Of God” because it was God's plan to begin with.

I appreciate your doubts Mike, because I too am learning even as I try to teach. You are making me do my homework, for which I thank you. Just be patient, and perhaps we can both come to an understanding.

And no, my friend, I do not know all the answers, nor do I think you have none of them. I think it is an example of why God sent both Peter and Paul, so the Gentiles could have another way of saying things as long as they understood the message.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin………..Brother i see some difference between your explanation and my understanding of Logos, First i don't see where the Logos and GOD are different, God is said to be Spirit and Spirit is what we recieve to conform to GOD. sending a Word (Logos) means nothing as word can or can not produce anything IMO. But Spirit goes beyond words it is a driving force of cognation the changes the thinking in the flesh it is in. I have this to offer from Jesus, “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE”, and again Jesus did not say the logos was in him he said that the Father (who we know was and is God ) was in Him he did not separate God from his words. This is where i still am having problems understanding the concept of GOD who is spirit being separated from his word. I do understand words can be spoken or written that are of GOD. But those word even if they were of God would not change a person or his behavior IMO, I believe it has to go beyond just speaking or knowledge of words, It has to do with Spirit changing our cognitions of thing. Jesus said they could not understand his word because they were not of GOD and it had not been given to them to or they could understand them, this cognation had to be given to them first before they could even understand the word of God . My understand is God and his word are one and the same thing. Just as we and our words are one and the same.

If God sends you his word he is sending you his word it can do nothing if his spirit is not attached to it. Word are just expressions of Spirits (intellects). When the term “WAS” GOD that was used in John 1:1 was used it to me was referencing the PAST and was referring to the Beginning of (ALL) Creation God created every thing by Speaking it into creation, I.E , God said let there be light, this word was not just a word it was Power being expressed by presents of GOD himself. It was not God;s word alone that came to be in flesh it was God himself that was (IN) Jesus and not by words only but by his very Presence. “THE father (IN) me (HE) Doth the works. And again “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. I still can not conceive God and his words as being separated because i believe God (cognitive )words (ARE) Spirit, they are more then just words as we know them to be. Example, Jesus said to his disciple when they were to be put on trial they were not to meditate on what to say (words) but it would be given them the very hour they need them and it would not be them speaking but GOD the Father speaking through them through there very mouths God would speak, it was not even them speaking but GOD first person speaking. see my point, this happened many times with Jesus also, as in the case of when God spoke through Jesus saying “destory this temple and in three days I (GOD) shall raise (IT), (the body) UP”>

I still believe it is GOD'S Spirit that springs forth his words from the heart of his childern, and that is what is in a Person by His living Christs (ANOINTING) or Spirit that (CAUSES) us to TRULY IMAGE HIM. Not Jesus (IN) us but the same SPIRIT that was (IN) Jesus is in all who have it and that spirit is GOD the Father just as it is said, “THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND (IN ) ALL”. God lives vicariously (IN) his creation not by Logos but by Spirit that produces LOGO'S. I believe God does truly (INDWELL US) and lives with in all who have HIS Spirit in them. That is just the way is see it at this time brother.

peace and love to you and yours and i hope and Pray the cancer will leave your body brother……………………….gene

[Pastry]

Paladin!  First I will continue praying for you.   My Husband too went through radiation.  It makes a person rather weak.  But He is fine now, no more Cancer.  

Now, When you say that Rev. 19 does speak of Jesus, then why don't you believe it is Jesus in John 1:1  He is the firstborn of the death, the Scripture in Col. 1:18 tells us so….Right???

John 1:14 is when The Word of God became flesh.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

Like Rev. 19, John 1:14  cannot be any other being, as far as I can see it.??..I believe God is a title and so is The Word of God…… Both God and The Word of God have a name….

Quote

Quote Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy.

Why is this scripture the firstborn from the death?  It doesn't say that…..and ne
The only Scripture that I know besides Hebrew 12 is

Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I don't believe that Col, and Rev. is the firstborn from the death, because it doesn't say that. Please take a look in the Preexisting Debate tread
whar t8 wrote.  It is a long Article….t8  believes Jesus preexisted…
Peace Irene

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 20 2011,15:21)

Quote Jesus was created by God first?  Show where this occurred by the scriptures. Marty!  There are three Scriptures that shows Jesus was createde in Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.   Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God.  Then through Jesus God created all. Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   Jesus was not only the firstborn of all creation, He also was the firstborn from the death. Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   I think we at one time discussed John 1:1 to show you that it is Jesus. In verse 14 The Word of God became flesh… Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   Notice here the last part of that verse it says:” …the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.  This also answers your question when Jesus was begotten. Since He at that point became flesh, He was begotten before He became a man.  Again what is the definition of begotten?  Does it not mean to come forth from God?  Jesus is the only one that is the literal Son of God, not made from the dust of the earth….. begotten means beget, come forth from the Father…to procreate or generate….that is what our Ransom House Dictionary says…. Some also think john is not talkink about Jesus in John 1, but to compare That the Word of God is jesus, we have this Scripture in Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.   Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.   Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.   Jesus will come back as The Word of God.  These Scriotures prove that… Peace Irene

Hi Mrs:

You are saying that Jesus was created by God prior to his birth into this world through the virgin Mary, and so, if this is so, there should be some scripture in the OT that specifically states this. I do not know of any scripture which states that Jesus was created including the scriptures that you just gave me from Colossians.

The scriptures state that the child born of the virgin Mary would be called “He Son of God”, and the scriptures in Colossians are speaking of the “Kingdom of God's dear Son”.

These are the scriptures from Luke:

Quote

Luke 1:30-35 (King James Version) 30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

These are the scriptures from Colossians:

Quote

Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

And so, the scriptures in Colossians refer to the same Son who was born of the virgin Mary, and scriptures in colossians are speaking of his kingdom which did not begin until God gave the throne of his Father David to him.

Anyway, the scriptues in John 3:16-18 state that God gave his “Only Begotten Son” not His “created Son”, and the scriptures call him the “the Son of God” after he was conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:37)

Hi Mike: I don't believe that anyone can explain it to you so that you can understand seeing that you have a pre-conceived philosophy relative to these scriptures.

Hi Marty,

The truth is that you can't explain your understanding of Phil 2 to anyone using the template I've given you.  Because YOUR understanding doesn't come close to matching what the scripture actually teaches.  And that's why you won't even try.  

I've told you all many times that I don't have a vested interest in the pre-existence of Jesus.  I would follow the words of scripture the same exact way whether or not he pre-existed.  It is people like you and Gene who have made up your own minds that you can't attain to what Jesus did unless he started off “exactly like us”.  So it is YOU who has the “pre-conceived philosophy”, not me.

I am asking you to clarify something that you teach as scriptural truth.  I am a brother in Christ asking you to clearly explain how a human being can be made in the likeness of a human being, so that I too may know the truth.  And yet you refuse me?  Aren't you a pastor or something?  What would you do if I was a member of your church and asked you in person?

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:37)

But I have given you my understanding of this, and so, now, please acknowledge that “before he became a man” does not appear in this scripture, but is something that you are assuming.

Yes, you have “GIVEN” me your understanding, which makes no logical sense to me.  And although I've asked, you have refused to EXPLAIN your understanding.  

As far as my understanding of “before”, consider the word “but” in verse 7.  Marty was filling his plate at the buffet with all kinds of foods that were bad for him, BUT emptied his plate, and filled it up with fruits and vegetables.
I know the analogy is corny, but don't you get the idea that you filled your plate with junk food BEFORE you emptied it and filled it with food that was better for you?

If you can honestly admit the answer to this question to yourself, then you will have an honest understanding of how I come to my conclusion about “before” in Phil 2.  The word “BUT” signifies that one thing happened BEFORE the other things mentioned.

So Marty, I've honestly explained the “before” issue.  Won't you try to use the template I've posted to explain how a human being can become a human being?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2011,21:48)

Notice I ask a simple question to Mike , Why did not John simply say Jesus if that is what he meant in John 1:1, and look at what he call an answer.

What was wrong with my answer, Gene?  Here, you try answering the same question to show me how it's done:

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Gene, I've decided for my own personal, selfish reasons that the lamb mentioned here is not Jesus Christ.  So I have a question for you:

Gene, if John meant the Lamb was Jesus, then why didn't he just say “Jesus”?

Show me how I should have answered that question from you, okay?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,03:13)

Your problem Mike, is that when someone answers your question, if they don't say it like you say it, you do not consider it as an answer, but an evasion. I have answered your question, and you call it an evasion

This is a new question I've never asked before Paladin.  I've seen where you belittled Irene for not knowing the meaning of “whether”.  Please put your money where your mouth is and answer a simple question DIRECTLY, because listing 100 scriptures with the word “whether” is not an answer to my very specific question.  And rearranging the wording to make “AS” be “OR” is not an answer to my question either.  Nor is saying, “The posts are there, let the readers decide”. (DISCLAIMER:  THIS IS A PARAPHRASE OF WHAT PALADIN SAID IN A RECENT POST, AND NOT AN EXACT QUOTATION OF HIS WORDS)

Paladin, is Peter EXCLUDING all other authorities EXCEPT FOR kings and governors by his use of the word “whether”?  YES or NO?

All that is required is a simple one word answer.  We both know the answer, don't we?  And we both know what answering my question will do to your claim about Col 1:16, don't we?  Is that why you won't answer in a direct manner?  Do you think you're fooling people here any more than Marty is fooling anyone with his refusal (inabililty) to break down Phil 2 line by line?

I hope Tim Kraft is paying attention.  I hope he can see why I get to be how I am.  Come on guys, we're supposedly discussing scriptural truths here, right?  How can we do that if you guys won't answer the hard scriptural questions?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,03:19)

When a king (a human being) changes his clothes, shaves off his beard, puts on the clothes of a servant, and walks into town instead of riding his horse, he has taken the form of a servant (a human being.) Is that too hard to understand?

Well, the “servant” part isn't too hard.  But unless that particular king was something other than a human being before he shaved off his beard, then yes, it is apparently too hard for me to understand how he was made in the likeness of human being when he already was one.

Perhaps you could try my template and break it down line for line like I asked Marty to do?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.”

Hi Paladin,

I don't really see the difference between the two explanations.  You are still saying the Logos WAS “the same person as God”, but then became “not God”, which is something God cannot do.  But if the Word WAS GOD, then it could not become “not God”, right?

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

“The logos became flesh” once more, each and every time a saint of God emulates the Christ, both in form and in behaviour, conforms to that template provided by God (who gave us the template, his only begotten son),

So had the logos ever “become flesh” before Jesus, since Jesus is apparently the “template”?

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

I appreciate your doubts Mike, because I too am learning even as I try to teach. You are making me do my homework, for which I thank you.

Paladin, this particular post was humble and respectable.  So what I must say makes me feel like a jerk, but I have to say it:  It seems to me, not so much that you're learning as you go, but that you are making up a doctrine as you go.  And with each claim that I scripturally refute, you add another equally refutable claim to replace the last one.

I'm sorry, but this does not seem to be the way to let the scriptures guide YOU.  It seems that you will not quit until you've figured out how to guide them.

peace and love,
mike

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2011,02:12)

Paladin………..Brother i see some difference between your explanation and my understanding of Logos, First i don't see where the Logos and GOD are different,  God is said to be Spirit and Spirit is what we recieve to conform to GOD. sending a Word (Logos) means nothing as word can or can not produce anything IMO. But Spirit goes beyond words it is a driving force of cognation the changes the thinking in the flesh it is in. I have this to offer from Jesus, “THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE”, and again Jesus did not say the logos was in him he said that the Father (who we know was and is God ) was in Him he did not separate God from his words. This is where i still am having problems understanding the concept of GOD who is spirit being separated from his word. I do understand words can be spoken or written that are of GOD. But those word even if they were of God would not change a person or his behavior IMO, I believe it has to go beyond just speaking or knowledge of words, It has to do with Spirit changing our cognitions of thing. Jesus said they could not understand his word because they were not of GOD  and it had not been given to them to or they could understand them, this cognation had to be given to them first before they could even understand the word of God . My understand is God and his word are one and the same thing. Just as we and our words are one and the same. If God sends you his word he is sending you his word it can do nothing if his spirit is not attached to it. Word are just expressions of Spirits (intellects). When the term “WAS” GOD that was used in John 1:1 was used it to me was referencing the PAST and was referring to the Beginning of  (ALL) Creation God created every thing by Speaking it into creation, I.E , God said let there be light, this word was not just a word it was Power being expressed by presents of GOD himself.  It was not God;s word alone that came to be in flesh it was God himself that was (IN) Jesus and not by words only but by his very Presence. “THE father (IN) me (HE) Doth the works.  And again “MY Lord AND MY GOD”. I still can not conceive God and his words as being separated because i believe God  (cognitive )words (ARE) Spirit, they are more then just words as we know them to be. Example, Jesus said to his disciple when they were to be put on trial they were not to meditate on what to say (words) but it would be given them the very hour they need them and it would not be them speaking but GOD the Father speaking through them through there very mouths God would speak, it was not even them speaking but GOD first person speaking. see my point, this happened many times with Jesus also, as in the case of when God spoke through Jesus saying “destory this temple and in three days I (GOD) shall raise (IT), (the body) UP”>   I still believe it is GOD'S Spirit that springs forth his words from the heart of his childern, and that is what is in a Person by His living Christs  (ANOINTING) or Spirit that (CAUSES) us to TRULY IMAGE HIM.  Not Jesus (IN) us  but the same SPIRIT that was (IN) Jesus is in all who have it and that spirit is GOD the Father just as it is said, “THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND (IN ) ALL”. God lives vicariously (IN) his creation not by Logos but by Spirit that produces LOGO'S. I believe God does truly (INDWELL US) and lives with in all who have HIS Spirit in them. That is just the way is see it at this time brother. peace and love to you and yours and i hope and Pray the cancer will leave your body brother……………………….gene

Gene, my friend, Does God change?

Yes, he changes all the time. He repents of both evil and good. When a nation of his people rebel agaisnt God, he repents of the good he had planned for them. When his people repent of their rebellious behaviour, he repents of the evil he had planned for them. So God changes, but only in a limited fashion.

Does logos change. Yes. logos became flesh, which God cannot do. There is some discussion in scripture that leads some to believe God appeared as a man to Abraham, and other similar incidents, but I believe those were always angels sent to represent God, or speak for God. And yes, they
“appeared” as men, but that did not make them men. Men die.
Angels do not.

So, is logos different from God? Yes. It differes in the fact it becomes flesh every time a saint loses himself in Christ, so that the saint is no longer perceived by others, but Christ living in him is what is seen, with the glory as of an only begotten son. This is what has been lost to men, by virtue of Satan convincing the saints to read the bible starting from the back, and mixing everything up. They have lost all true meaning, because they cannot scripturally define the terminology, and properly apply the principles taught by the Holy Spirit, by inspiration, to a lost and dying world.

Does logos differ from God? Only insofar as God's truth is modified by becoming flesh, and allowing Christ to shine forth in a glory not seen by man's eyes in a while.

Does logos differ from God? Only by God's own design.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,15:15)

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25) In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)];and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.” Hi Paladin, I don't really see the difference between the two explanations.  You are still saying the Logos WAS “the same person as God”, but then became “not God”, which is something God cannot do.  But if the Word WAS GOD, then it could not become “not God”, right?

Wrong!

Does John tell us “the logos was God?” Yes he does.

Does John tells us “the logos became flesh?” Yes he does.

Is flesh “not God?” By every standard.

Can the logos, which was God, become “not God?”

John says it did. your argument is not with me, Mike, it is with the Apostle John.

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

“The logos became flesh” once more, each and every time a saint of God emulates the Christ, both in form and in behaviour, conforms to that template provided by God (who gave us the template, his only begotten son),

Quote

So had the logos ever “become flesh” before Jesus, since Jesus is apparently the “template”?

Since “the logos of God” is a concept, of “Christ in you,” how could logos become flesh before Christ?

“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the logos of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” [Col 1:25-27]

Quote (Paladin @ May 20 2011,06:25)

I appreciate your doubts Mike, because I too am learning even as I try to teach. You are making me do my homework, for which I thank you.

mikeboll64 wrote:

Paladin, this particular post was humble and respectable.  So what I must say makes me feel like a jerk, but I have to say it:  It seems to me, not so much that you're learning as you go, but that you are making up a doctrine as you go.  And with each claim that I scripturally refute, you add another equally refutable claim to replace the last one.

Well, my friend, how else could you possibly see it? You have not refuted my position that you are reading the scripture backwards, unable to learn proper application of terminology; you have simply blew it off, deciding that you can decide for yourself how to study God's word, even though he gave explicit instructions to the contrary.

Do you have any idea how many people begin bible study with John 1:1 as their starting point? Is it any wonder they conclude God is a trinity? John 1:1 is not the beginning of the bible. It is really only twenty-one chapters from the end.

It helps if you understand that John was not the first book written. Too any Christians will begin with John 1:1 and PROVE everything from that one verse. It becomes the only “proof-text” they need when they are promoting “yabut” religion.

No matter what scripture you present, and no matter what argument you make for it, they will respond with “yabut” (yes becomes yah!, but remains; and they combine to become “yabut”) and then present you with John 1:1 as the end all and be all of scripture understanding.

Genesis was written long before John penned his fine epistles. And when John wrote about God's logos, he did not give the meaning to the word; it had already been established in 62 books of the bible, over several hundred years. (The Penteteuch being written about 400 b.c.)

It also helps to understand something about when the books of the New Testament were written. It helps to understand that they were not written to unbelievers, but to believers, to help them adjust to new understanding of a new way of a new life.

CHRONOLOGY AUTHOR/BOOK
45 JAMES/James
48 Paul/GALATIONS
50 Paul/1st Epistle to THESSALONIANS
51 Paul/2nd Epistle to THESSALONIANS
52 MATTHEW/Gospel of Mathew
54/55 Paul/1st Epistle to CORINTHIANS (SPRING)
Paul/2nd Epistle to CORINTHIANS (FALL)

56 Paul/Epistle to ROMANS
58 LUKE/Gospel of Luke
60 Paul/Epistle to COLOSSIANS
Paul/Epistle to EPHESIANS
Paul/Epistle to PHILEMON

61 Paul/epistle to PHILIPPIANS
Luke/ACTS Of Apostles

64/65 Paul/1st Epistle to TIMOTHY
Paul/Epistle to TITUS
Peter/1 PETER

66/67 Peter/2 PETER

67/68 Paul/2nd Epistle to TIMOTHY

68/70 Unknown/HEBREWS
John/REVELATION
Mark/Gospel of MARK

75 JUDE/Epistle of Jude

85/90 John/1st Epistle of JOHN
John/2nd Epistle of JOHN
John/3rd Epistle of JOHN

96 John/GOSPEL OF JOHN

I know some disagree with this chronology, but I will not argue the point with them. I only offer it because it helps to have a starting point in understanding.

So, if you want to know something about “logos” for example, you don't begin with John's gospel, which was probably the LAST book written, but rather start with Genesis, and read through all the bible to see what meaning has already been established when John uses the word to make his point.

Logos always means a concept, idea, or something of similar meaning. It Never means a person. A person may be given a name, but that does not mean the person takes on the meaning of the name. And when someone personifies the principles contained in the idea, we understand that the idea has been personified by that person.

Life magazine, sixtieth anniversary issue, page 42 states it this way concerning Colonel Charles Lindberg; “The first man to fly from North America to Europe was the American dream made flesh…”

I do not know of ANYONE who thinks the American dream, having once been personified, is no longer available for others to personify. Any person who fulfills the American dream, personifies it; and any person who fulfills God's word, personifies it; and the logos becomes flesh (is personified) all over again.

The agonies of Jesus' death will never be felt by generations of men who follow after, but yet, Paul describes Christians as “always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.” [2 Cor 4:10]

So Christians can personify the death of Jesus, and his life, without becoming Jesus. “I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ LIVETH IN ME:” [Gal 2:20] Paul says Christians personify the life of Christ. And John said Jesus personified the logos of God. And John and P
aul both said that Christians both heard, and kept the logos of God; but Paul said the logos of God can be corrupted, and was by some men. [2 Cor 2:17] “For we are not as many which corrupt the logos of God…”

The logos of God can be corrupted, but Jesus Christ, no man can corrupt. Jesus is not the logos of God, he is the means by which the saints can become the personification of the logos of God. And he did it so well, that he was given a name, “logos of God” which was written [Rev 19:12-13], similar to the names written on the forheads and garments of the saints in Revelation.

It is similar to when men brand cattle, to indicate possession. They identify that which belongs to them by writing their name, or some identifying mark upon those things they possess. God writes his name on those who belong to him, and identifies his enemies the same way. This happens to Christians [Rev 2:17][Rev 14:1], and to the harlot of Babylon [Rev 17:5], and to Christ [Rev 19:12-13][Rev 19:16].

It also helps to understand that once God identifies himself in the first-person-singular, as creator, it does not make any sense at all to try to make it fit by squeezing it into John 1:1. Rather, John 1:1 must be understood in the CONTEXT of a first-person-singular God.

But “Orthodoxy” thinks they invented context, and only they have the right to identify it. Any study of Homiletics can show that a context is assigned by men, and men can do with it what they will. In sermon preparation (Homiletics), one may take the entire bible as a context; or a single two word verse (Jesus Wept); and all points in between.

The context of a sermon is what ever the speaker makes it. So also is the context of a study; we may study a comparison of Hebrew thought processes and Gentile thought processes; or we may study Nehushtan, and all its significance to Christianity; again we may study why Jesus wept; and so on endlessly. The context of our study is whatever we make it.

The context of a verse may be the paragraph in which it is found, or it may be the subject under which it is studied, or it may be the word under consideration; contexts may vary with the same verse. For example “love” may be studied by examining every word that is translated into the English word “love;” or it may follow the developmental patterns laid out by Jesus in his sermon on the mount; or it may be discovered in the Greek of Jesus' confrontation with Peter; or various and sundry other contexts and/or contextual considerations.

But to say a verse is “taken out of context” says nothing. The context must be defined for the argument. If I am showing how logos is used throughout scripture, someone may have a preconceived concept of the meaning and application of “logos” in John 1:1 and conclude “You are taking it out of context.” That is the danger of studying the bible beginning with the New Testament, and John 1:1 as a starting place. It misleads the student.

Scripture does not start with John 1:1, in fact it almost ends there. Why then would I begin with it? Unless I wanted to establish a particular doctrine right at the start of the study, there is absolutely no sense for beginning a study of scripture at its end.

Genesis is as good a starting place for scripture study as any in the bible. Then again, the book of Job would be another, or even Psalms, or Proverbs, as they all address “beginning” things.

Job establishes forever, the need of man for a mediator. Orthodox Christianity thinks Job is simply a book about suffering. What a sad commentary on theologians, that they have convinced people that this is the value of Job.

As for the “us” language in Genesis as in “Let us make man” Orthodosy claims it as proof of a trinity. That is because they are limiting their “context” to Gen 1:26.

The true “context” of creation is much broader, and explains very well, how it is proper for God to use “Elohiym” and say “us” without including a trinitarian concept of who he is.

Look at the eighth Proverb “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled before the hills was I brought forth; while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, not the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he set a compass upon the face of the depth; When he established the clouds above; when he strengthened the fountains of the deep; When he gave to the sea his decree that the waters should not pass his commandment; when he appointed the foundations of the earth; Then I was by him as one brought up with him; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. [Proverb 8:22-31]

Look for more “context” about creation and wisdom:
“O Lord, how manifold are thy works! In WISDOM hast thou made them all:…” [Psa 104:24]

“To him that by WISDOM made the heavens…” [Psa 136:5]

“He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his WISDOM…” [Jer 10:12; 51:15]

Scripture is replete with verses supplying context for a study of Wisdom's part in the creative process. But “orthodoxy” throws that all aside and says “No, everyone knows Jesus was Wisdom in the beginning.”

That directly contradicts Paul's statement that Jesus was “made wisdom to us” [1 Cor 1:30]; and it also contradicts Isa 42:5 which state “El Jehovah” created us, and Mal 2:10 “one El created us.” El is singular, not plural. Jehovah is El, and Jesus is El's son. One el created us, not two.

And Wisdom is Elohiym, according to Gen 1:26 “Let us make man” because God and wisdom created everything. But God tells us that Wisdom is not a God when he says no other God is beside him, before him, or after him; and when he tells us he alone created everything; therefore, Elohiym does not MEAN God, it rather references thse entities that are immortal in some fashion or other.

Abraham is called “Elohiym” while still living [Gen 23:6], and Samuel the prophet is called Elohiym after he died [1 Sam 28:13]; Jesus was called “Elohiym” after his resurrection [Heb 1:8], all immortal in some fashion or other.

Then when the context changes to the new creation, we learn a whole new set of parameters; Through Christ all things are made new and that Jesus made all things new according to the concept of God, his logos. “All things became by it; and without it nothing became that has become” [John 1:3]

This contradicts no other concept or verse found in scripture. Even Colossians verifies this when it says “For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him.” [Col 1:16].

Why is it trinitarians always leave out part of the “context” while crying “context” for the part they want? That little 'WHETHER THEY BE” is an integral part of the same context that says “all things.” Yet I am told I am “taking it out of context” when in reality I am applying it TO the context.

To properly study scripture, one should see how a word is used by the same author, within the same book; then see if its use changes in other books, first by the same author, then by other authors. A list should be made depicting the variety of uses, and any changes.

If a constant is detected, it should be applied to the same word in the New Testament, until and unless it contradicts previous scripture. It MUST NOT be allowed to be controlled by later scripture, as later scripture does not control what has been written. It can only fulfill it.

Quote

I'm sorry, but this does not seem to be the way to let the scriptures guide YOU.  It seems that you will not quit until you've figured out how to guide them.

It was God who said “Let all things be done decently and in order.” It is men who say, “oh, that's just silly, any order will do; you can read the bible in any order you want to and understand it.”

It was God who said, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” [II Tim 2:15]

And it was God who said “For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.” [2 Cor 2:17]

The logos of God is corrupted every time someone speaks God's words out of order. And that is not me guiding the spirit of truth. That is me allowing the spirit to instruct me and guide me.

[Paladin]

mikeboll64,May wrote:

[/quote]
Perhaps you could try my template and break it down line for line like I asked Marty to do?

I don't even know what that means.

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,03:05)

Paladin!  First I will continue praying for you.   My Husband too went through radiation.  It makes a person rather weak.  But He is fine now, no more Cancer.   Now, When you say that Rev. 19 does speak of Jesus, then why don't you believe it is Jesus in John 1:1  He is the firstborn of the death, the Scripture in Col. 1:18 tells us so….Right??? John 1:14 is when The Word of God became flesh. Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   Like Rev. 19, John 1:14  cannot be any other being, as far as I can see it.??..I believe God is a title and so is The Word of God…… Both God and The Word of God have a name…. Quote Quote Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Right! Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and many brethren will follow in resurrection. In fact Heb 12:23 is a reference to those who follow Jesus in resurrection, in prophecy. Why is this scripture the firstborn from the death?  It doesn't say that…..and ne The only Scripture that I know besides Hebrew 12 is Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I don't believe that Col, and Rev. is the firstborn from the death, because it doesn't say that. Please take a look in the Preexisting Debate tread whar t8 wrote.  It is a long Article….t8  believes Jesus preexisted… Peace Irene

Because for over sixty years, Paul has been preaching about the logos of God being a an activity consisting of “Christ in you.” When you give your life over to Christ, so that he shines through, that is the logos of God. Not “Christ” but
“Christ in you.”

This is why so many pepeol find it hadrd to understand, they have spent so much time saying and thinking “Jesus is the logos” so when I point out scripture that tells them “The logos of God is “Christ in you” they stop understanding when they read “Christ.” But Christ is not the logos. “Christ in you” is.

God developed a plan, by which he would eventually become all in all. This tells me he is not at this time, “all in all.”

First, he developed a plan whereby Christ would be discerned in the lives of the saints, by others who would see the effect of Christ living in them.

God called that plan, his “logos.” Therefore it is called by Paul,
“The Logos Of God.”

Now, God is in Christ, Christ is in you, and me, and all the saints, so that eventually, Christ will be in all, and God, being in Christ, will be in all, and will be all in all. That is the logos of God, through “Christ in you.”

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin………Brother……..Thanks for the post to Mike explaining the Logos personified in the Flesh man Jesus i agree with that , but here is my understanding , A Logos or WORD can only exist (IN) the Mind of a person right? So we must ask, HOW does that WORD Exist (IN) the mind of that person?, was it by reading it , or by Spirit revealing (POWERS) present (IN) that Person.

Jesus as Peter who he (thought) he was , Peter responded thou are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responds blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto you but my Father who in in Heaven has revealed it unto you, then he proceed to tell him that was the POWER he was going to build the Church on. It was the Power of God to reveal into the Mind of Man the thing of GOD.

The meaning of word to me is intelligent utterance. but that meaning does not give the source the intellect comes from it just says it is expressed thought, through word, as in the case of The Spirit of America you menationed that is not a Word it is a SPIRIT, is it not, Do you See my point brother? I still believe GOD the FATHER was actually (IN) Jesus Causing Him to do and say the things he did. If we are going to separate GOD from Jesus . WE then must deny what Jesus said I.E, “the farther who is (IN) Me (HE) Does the works” and again “Believe you not that the Father (IS IN) Me Thomas , if you believe not then believe in the miracles. Notice Jesus was not implying just the words or LOGOS but also the very presents of GOD the FATHER. Then Thomas finely Got it , and responded “MY Lord (AND) My GOD. I have personally had God speak first person through my mouth , i have post this here in the past, I did not even think of what came out of my mouth and it completely confounded the person i was addressing it to, it just sprang forth as i utter it. Tha twas not me speaking But GOD through Me.

Your understanding is definitely good and i do agree with most of what you are saying , but i still believe you can not separate the Word of GOD from the SPIRIT (intellect) of GOD and His actual presents (IN) Jesus and all true Saints. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………..gene

[Pastry]

Quote

Because for over sixty years, Paul has been preaching about the logos of God being a an activity consisting of “Christ in you.” When you give your life over to Christ, so that he shines through, that is the logos of God. Not “Christ” but “Christ in you.”

Paladin!  this however has nothing to do with that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.  and when Christ walked this earth, He did not smite the nations.  So God is not in all yet. Only the born again Christians are in God and have Gods Holy Spirit in them…. When Jesus comes back as The Word of God He will only teach the truth.  When all then have been made subject to Him, then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to God so God will be all in all.

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

1Cr 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  

1Cr 15:24   Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  

1Cr 15:25   For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  

1Cr 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.  

1Cr 15:27   For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  

1Cr 15:28   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.  

Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2011,02:54)

Paladin………Brother……..Thanks for the post to Mike explaining the Logos personified in the Flesh man Jesus i agree with that , but here is my understanding , A Logos or WORD can only exist (IN) the Mind of a person right?  So we must ask,  HOW does that WORD Exist (IN) the mind of that person?,  was it by reading it , or by Spirit revealing (POWERS) present (IN) that Person. Jesus as Peter who he (thought) he was , Peter responded thou are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responds blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto you but my Father who in in Heaven has revealed it unto you, then he proceed to tell him that was the POWER he was going to build the Church on. It was the Power of God to reveal into the Mind of Man the thing of GOD. The meaning of word to me is intelligent utterance. but that meaning does not give the source the intellect comes from it just says it is expressed thought, through word, as in the case of The Spirit of America you menationed that is not a Word it is a SPIRIT, is it not, Do you See my point brother? I still believe GOD the FATHER was actually (IN) Jesus Causing Him to do  and say the things he did. If we are going to separate GOD from Jesus . WE then must deny what Jesus said I.E,  “the farther who is (IN) Me (HE) Does the works”  and again “Believe you not that the Father (IS IN) Me Thomas , if you  believe not then believe in the miracles.  Notice Jesus was not implying just the words or LOGOS but also the very presents of GOD the FATHER. Then Thomas finely Got it , and responded “MY Lord (AND) My GOD. I have personally had God speak first person through my mouth , i have post this here in the past, I did not even think of what came out of my mouth and it completely confounded the person i was addressing it to, it just sprang forth as i utter it. Tha twas not me speaking But GOD through Me. Your understanding is definitely good and i do agree with most of what you are saying , but i still believe you can not separate the Word of GOD from the SPIRIT (intellect) of GOD and His actual presents (IN) Jesus and all true Saints.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………..gene

Gene, think for a moment…

God is spirit…

How can you separate God-spirit from the spirit of God?

You can't

Yet, God can, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh” he said in Joel 2:28, and Acts 2 tells us “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh….”

I do not pretend to understand all that defines God, Gene, I only know in the beginning, the logos was with God, and the logos was God, and the logos became flesh, as described by Paul in Gal, I and II Corinthians, Collosians, and by John in John's epistles and gospel.

If you can  understand how God's logos can be with God and be God, and become flesh, you will know all that I know.

It might help to remember “word” is just one translation out of many, which might not actually apply in John 1. Communication or even concept might be closer to what John is saying.

And if you can understand how God who is spirit, can pour forth of his spirit upon all flehs, you will understand what I understand.

To explain beyond what scripture says, I cannot do.

Interesting questions though.

[terraricca]

Quote (Paladin @ May 22 2011,17:18)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2011,02:54) Paladin………Brother……..Thanks for the post to Mike explaining the Logos personified in the Flesh man Jesus i agree with that , but here is my understanding , A Logos or WORD can only exist (IN) the Mind of a person right?  So we must ask,  HOW does that WORD Exist (IN) the mind of that person?,  was it by reading it , or by Spirit revealing (POWERS) present (IN) that Person. Jesus as Peter who he (thought) he was , Peter responded thou are the Christ the son of the living God, Jesus responds blessed are you Simon Barjona because flesh and blood did (NOT) reveal that unto you but my Father who in in Heaven has revealed it unto you, then he proceed to tell him that was the POWER he was going to build the Church on. It was the Power of God to reveal into the Mind of Man the thing of GOD. The meaning of word to me is intelligent utterance. but that meaning does not give the source the intellect comes from it just says it is expressed thought, through word, as in the case of The Spirit of America you menationed that is not a Word it is a SPIRIT, is it not, Do you See my point brother? I still believe GOD the FATHER was actually (IN) Jesus Causing Him to do  and say the things he did. If we are going to separate GOD from Jesus . WE then must deny what Jesus said I.E,  “the farther who is (IN) Me (HE) Does the works”  and again “Believe you not that the Father (IS IN) Me Thomas , if you  believe not then believe in the miracles.  Notice Jesus was not implying just the words or LOGOS but also the very presents of GOD the FATHER. Then Thomas finely Got it , and responded “MY Lord (AND) My GOD. I have personally had God speak first person through my mouth , i have post this here in the past, I did not even think of what came out of my mouth and it completely confounded the person i was addressing it to, it just sprang forth as i utter it. Tha twas not me speaking But GOD through Me. Your understanding is definitely good and i do agree with most of what you are saying , but i still believe you can not separate the Word of GOD from the SPIRIT (intellect) of GOD and His actual presents (IN) Jesus and all true Saints.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………..gene Gene, think for a moment… God is spirit… How can you separate God-spirit from the spirit of God? You can't Yet, God can, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh” he said in Joel 2:28, and Acts 2 tells us “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh….” I do not pretend to understand all that defines God, Gene, I only know in the beginning, the logos was with God, and the logos was God, and the logos became flesh, as described by Paul in Gal, I and II Corinthians, Collosians, and by John in John's epistles and gospel. If you can  understand how God's logos can be with God and be God, and become flesh, you will know all that I know. It might help to remember “word” is just one translation out of many, which might not actually apply in John 1. Communication or even concept might be closer to what John is saying. And if you can understand how God who is spirit, can pour forth of his spirit upon all flehs, you will understand what I understand. To explain beyond what scripture says, I cannot do. Interesting questions though.

Paladin

your explanation is a good try,and it could be true ,but I see you deny God as a being ,with a soul,and feelings ,and also ears and see,just like us,(not flesh)

so sure God is spirit just as men are flesh,but both are beings

the WORD OF GOD (Christ) also a being and also a spirit just as all the angels that God created,

but all have thoughts but only God as true thoughts and will for all his creation,and this truth and will is written in the scriptures so that we can absorb those truth and so do his will and be one with his spirit and our spirit (thoughts)

Jesus came from his father and talked the words that his father wanted us to know ,this is what we also should do ,
follow those words because that is what the spirit of God is .

Pierre

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